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Offlineyewhew
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what quantum mechanics means to you
    #5466102 - 04/01/06 01:03 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Does quantum mechanics tell us that the universe is the unfolding of all possible, deterministic states ("indeterministic" in a sense) and has science discovered the physical system where reality branches off? Some interpretations of quantum mechanics say that the branches are only known once they have entered the conscious domain of an experiencer.

You exist in your current universe because of a sequence of events whose reality is only statistically determined. The other branches have equal likelihood of being realized and some interpretations of quantum mechanics show that if light behaves like a wave when its position is unobserved, it can be thought of as all possible trajectories existing simultaneously. Thus the unobserved universe exists in a superposition state.

Am I in a superposition state in your universe?


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Edited by yewhew (04/01/06 01:07 AM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5466136 - 04/01/06 01:16 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Quantam mechanics doesn't mean much of anything to me. It has been stated that, unless you understand the underlying mathematics of quantam mechanics, you don't really have much comprehension of what quantam mechanics is. Any way of describing quantam mechanics without the accompanying mathematics is more in line with metaphors to convey general notions.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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:redpanda:
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Like being here
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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5466148 - 04/01/06 01:19 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

So you are saying you don't understand the math?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: zorbman]
    #5466167 - 04/01/06 01:27 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

Exactly. I am not personally adept in mathematics in general, certainly not the mathematics responsible for quantam mechanics; thus, quantam mechanics does not mean much of anything to me (as I stated). :grin:

I'm glad to see that someone here is capable of following through with basic logic to reach a conclusion. "If an understanding of the mathematics behind quantam mechanics is necessary in order to actually know what quantam mechanics is, and I have stated that quantam mechanics doesn't mean much of anything to me, then I..." :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5466175 - 04/01/06 01:28 AM (18 years, 1 day ago)

You do the math.  :grin:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineGomp
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5466916 - 04/01/06 09:53 AM (18 years, 18 hours ago)

"you can 'only' be here , because you are everywhere.."
-Unknown...

I would say, Yes & No! .. :wink::thumbup:

"Everywhere, IS now, here!"
-Unknown :P


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OfflineAnnom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5467137 - 04/01/06 11:17 AM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

"I think I can safely say that no one understands quantum mechanics" - Richard Feynman  :smirk:

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5467158 - 04/01/06 11:25 AM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

"Quantum mechanics" are the guys that pop the hoods of quantums, and fix them....

Right....?


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OfflineImNtCrzy
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5467205 - 04/01/06 11:40 AM (18 years, 16 hours ago)

I can definately say that I don't have a grasp on quantum mechanic, most people don't, but there are physicists and researchers around the world learning a bit more everyday, things like matter in its bassest form is a particle and a wave... defies pervious notions of science.

So the one definate thing I can say about quantum mechanics to me is that it shows me and most people that reality is far more than what we think it is and we have yet to comprehend even the scope of it.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: ImNtCrzy]
    #5467434 - 04/01/06 12:46 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago)

I dont think you need to know the math in order to understand the concepts of QM. I have read a couple books on it and I have hung in discussions about QM/QP with college students who actually have studied the math. Granted I havent had a highball with Feynman and told him how ridiculous his many worlds theory is, but I like to think I have a more advanced grasp on QP/QM than your average person.

Take the Young Slit experiment, besides having the coolest name for an experiment, there is no math involved whatsoever, it is simply using previously stated and known laws of how waves act and the observation of observation of events.
Of course it can all be represented in a mathematical function, but so can Schrodingers cat, which is also just using a little logic and entanglement.

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5467728 - 04/01/06 02:25 PM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

I think that QM/QP just lets us know that what we thought was real....really isn't.
And what we thought was not real....is just as real as what we thought was real.

That our life is really just a creation of our own imagination.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5467754 - 04/01/06 02:31 PM (18 years, 13 hours ago)

quantum mechanics was cool til i had to take a class on it

now its just a ton of calculus that is somehow supposed to relate to a bunch of abstract ideas and wave functions and eigen functions and to be honest, i just cant connect the math to what is actually happening

and even the non math part doesnt really make any sense to me...how can it go from one level to another without ever being in between them?


How can there be zero nodes in the particle in the box wave, so it cant exist at one point, but can exist at points on either side of the node? How does it get from the first part to the second without crossing that node??

oh man and thats just like the very beginning of the things that make no sense to me regarding that subject

so yea....i just dont get it  :confused:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5471541 - 04/02/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quantum Mechanics is the true definition of chaos.

There is absolutely no predictability of where a quark will end up next in the subatomic realm - you can know it's velocity and position - but never both at the same time. And since these quarks do not have a solid structure, it is possible a quark from another packet of energy (a proton, neutron, electron) to transfer to another. Thusforth, it is possible that a solid object can pass through another without damaging either.

Another interesting factor is the relativity between the microscopic and the macroscopic realms. There's a very fine line between the two. While the movement of your hand is a large event in the subatomic realm, hence all the quarks have just moved a very great distance, in the big picture of the Milky Way, pretty much nothing has happened. And in the prospect of the universe, the Milky Way is the size of an atom, and is minimalistic. Yet, to us, just like the quarks relate existence in our hand, it is unfathomably big.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471549 - 04/02/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was following you up to the point of THUSFORTH.

I cant take anyone seriously who uses the word Thusforth.... is it even a word?

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5471570 - 04/02/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I dont care.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471608 - 04/02/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Im just saying, you had credibility up to that point, henceforth the second paragraph was read in jest hitherto the nonsensical word, thus the aforementioned topic hurt your arguments.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471676 - 04/02/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quantum Mechanics is the true definition of chaos.

There is absolutely no predictability of where a quark will end up next in the subatomic realm - you can know it's velocity and position - but never both at the same time.




No, QM shows that there is only predictability in the quantum world. Not that there isn't any at all. On the contrary - we can predict things in the quantum world to a very high degree.

What QM suggests is that our concept of something being in a well-defined and specific position does not work on the quantum level. It's not that we can't predict exactly where a particle is or how it is moving...the particle just isn't anywhere "exact", nor is it moving in any "exact" direction. The particle is probably in a certain location (or a certain set of locations) and is probably moving along a certain vector.

In fact our entire idea of "particles" is probably outdated and entirely wrong. Electrons and such are not tiny balls of anything. Though I doubt any human can say exactly what they are, I would tend to think of them more like waves than the classical idea of a "particle". Not exactly waves - like water waves - though...more like discreet packets of wave-like geometries. This, I think, is where the problem of defining exact location/velocity in the quantum world comes into being - because such concepts simply don't exist on such small scales.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5471684 - 04/02/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So one grammatical error voided the whole validity of my argument, even though you knew exactly what I'm talking about? Maybe you should find a spelling nazi forum to post in kid, I'm here to discuss philosophy, not get my papers graded in an English class.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: trendal]
    #5471701 - 04/02/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Are you saying you can predict the movement of quarks in the subatomic realm?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471718 - 04/02/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
So one grammatical error voided the whole validity of my argument, even though you knew exactly what I'm talking about? Maybe you should find a spelling nazi forum to post in kid, I'm here to discuss philosophy, not get my papers graded in an English class.




jeez, calm down, take a joke.

on the other hand.... your grasp on QM, and your argument so far seemed based solely on one viewing of "The Elegant Universe".

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5471726 - 04/02/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I didnt express any emotion in my post, I dont see how you could perceive my attitude as being pissed off.

Never seen that movie, is it about physics?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471734 - 04/02/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Are you saying you can predict the movement of quarks in the subatomic realm?




probability clouds..... while it isnt pinpoint accurate, there is still prediction of movement.

Also, that is one thing that always fucked me up in regards to QM.... quantum spin. I never could grasp how one full rotation is actually 1 and a half 360's.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471749 - 04/02/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I am saying that sub-atomic particles are predictable but that you can never make an exact prediction because the notion of "exact" does not work on a quantum level.

As for quarks...yes you can certainly predict how they will move because there is no such thing as a single quark - at least not at any energy level you are likely to come across. Quarks always come in groups as other particles - like the 3 quarks in each proton or neutron. If you tried to split two quarks apart, you would find that by the time you got them twice as far apart as they are normally you would have added so much energy to the system that you would "create" two new quarks and end up with two separate groups of quarks (though one will be a quark/anti-quark pair and thus will soon annihilate).

Because you can't see individual quarks it is pointless to talk about predicting how an individual quark will move. Predicting how groups of quarks - like protons and neutrons - will move is certainly possible.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471758 - 04/02/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
I didnt express any emotion in my post, I dont see how you could perceive my attitude as being pissed off.

Never seen that movie, is it about physics?




well, calling me a kid, and assuming I am a spelling Nazi might have given me that notion.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5471783 - 04/02/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Then maybe you should stop being so fragile.  :smirk:

And you are a spelling nazi if you choose to refute the meaning of a post of several paragraphs because of a single grammatical error.

:lol:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471902 - 04/02/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

what meaning? it was regurgitating data in the hopes that people would admire your false fecundity on the matter, and rather than rip you a new one, I decided to be jovial about it.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5471968 - 04/02/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

...being jovial by offering something completely irrelevant to the discussion?

I posted to add my knowledge to the discussion, and my thoughts on the subatomic realm. I have no interest of impressing anyone on an internet message board. You dont know my true intent, nor have you offered anything besides a movie reference to 'rip me a new one'.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5471981 - 04/02/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, the title of the thread is in regards to what QP means to you, your post was merely a regurgitation of datum, thusforth, ipso facto, ergo, henceforth it wasnt even an argument, nor really a discussion.... but frankly Im tired of arguing the semantics of your posting blunders in this thread.....

ok.... so, does anyone have any insights regarding the quantum spin, and why 360 degrees isnt one full rotation?

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5472134 - 04/02/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Regurgitation of my readings? No, my post was my own take on the information I've read, an add to the discussion.

If you dont want to have meaningless discussions, then you can start with halting of accusing people of spelling errors.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5472228 - 04/02/06 08:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

an accusation is much like an unknown probability of guilt.... your poor grammar is evident and not in the realm of possibly being wrong.... it was wrong, thusforth, it wasnt an accusation, but more like pointing out the obvious.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5472364 - 04/02/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
jeez, calm down, take a joke.





I'm not touching yeeww, I'm not touching yyyyeeeewwwwww....  :poke:


:lol:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5472382 - 04/02/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:bongload: :bigblunt: :bigjoint: :gethigh: :blazed: :bongroll: :bouncysmoke: :bong2:

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5472440 - 04/02/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No one's debating the existence of the word - what I'm saying is that it's pointless to point it out. Even though you keep using it sarcastically, you know it's exact meaning, so to point out something so irrelevant is just a distraction to the discussion. And that's why you shouldnt get all uppety about being called a spelling nazi - you are one!


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5472464 - 04/02/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I used to think that "centrifical" (force) was a word.... 

Then yesterday I looked on google just to make sure I spelled it right, and found a website stating that it wasn't a real word....!?
I was like, "WTF....?"  It **SEEMS** like I have heard that word all of my life....!?

So, I then got on with my life, swiped off the dust, and now use the word "centrifugal" (force) instead....    :thumbup:


(it was the right thing to do in a rain storm with no clouds...!?)  :sun:


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5472537 - 04/02/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly. If the end justifies the means, nobody gives a fuck of the existance or non-existance of an adverb used.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5472927 - 04/02/06 11:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

*existence

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OfflineFospher
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5473447 - 04/03/06 03:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
...and assuming I am a spelling Nazi might have given me that notion.




Assuming? Hah!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5473533 - 04/03/06 04:16 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Exactly. If the end justifies the means, nobody gives a fuck of the existance or non-existance of an adverb used.




The end doesn't justify the means. I can barely comprehend exactly how it is that using words that don't actually exist accomplishes anything, beyond that of others pointing it out and causing the person who created the word out of thin air to continue to react in a disrupting manner as a result. :lol:

One must realize that, to others who are following a post, the sudden appearance of a word that has never before been encountered is suitable grounds for the one reading the post to comment on it in a joking manner. :wink:

If one is truly interested in continuing discussion on the topic at hand, then one would be so inclined to realize that it is not an issue that one should take offense from, and simply drop it and continue forth with more on-topic discussion.

Thusforth, shut up and discuss quantum mechanics. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineImNtCrzy
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5474046 - 04/03/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i say the world is flat.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, for now.


--------------------
everything is the button

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5474398 - 04/03/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Pay attention to my first response to psilocyberin, and you'll see that it's not one of anger, but of complete indifference. He chose to carry on the discussion, so I just showed him his own flaw with his own words. If you dont want to discuss it, then stop posting.


--------------------
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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5475336 - 04/03/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It has been stated that, unless you understand the underlying mathematics of quantam mechanics, you don't really have much comprehension of what quantam mechanics is. Any way of describing quantam mechanics without the accompanying mathematics is more in line with metaphors to convey general notions.




I think this thread was meant to discuss the interpretations of Quantum mechanics, not mathematics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretat...retations_of_QM

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5475885 - 04/03/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quantum Mechanics to me means... That the universe is so fucking complex, and reality is so fucking complex in itself that one could possibly ever see or understand reality or the existence of it. It fuckin' blows my mind.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: yewhew]
    #5478239 - 04/04/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5478277 - 04/04/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Can you explain me why you call quantum theory a lie?

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: Annom]
    #5478316 - 04/04/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5478415 - 04/04/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It is a model that can predict reality(=the universe as we observe it) very accurate. There are no Truths in science, that would make it a religion.

I would not call it a lie though, because it does not claim to be the Truth: it's a theory.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5478992 - 04/04/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Quantum mechanics, useful or instrumental in certain certain economies of thinking, is not able to transcend the world it has created -- although its purpose is to do so.





God hasn't transcended the world he supposedly created!

If one person started off asking "what is that?", and were answered with "It is a rock", and infinitely asked "what is that?" or "why is that?", you would end somewhere very close to Quantum Mechanics/Physics.
We have found a point in which the only thing that is known about a phenomenon, is that it cant be entirely known/perceived rationally.

Everything is a lie until you fully grasp and understand it on your own.

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: Annom]
    #5481461 - 04/05/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Edited by Lakefingers (04/05/06 01:59 AM)

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5481567 - 04/05/06 03:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It predicts a reality that it presupposes. It is good at predicting that reality because it has created that reality and presupposes it. It has been formed within a structure of thought that gives it that reality a priori.




So you say that if we see an interference pattern of light on a wall created by a laser and two slits, we see that because quantum theory creates it?

And that we have build microsprocessors because quantum mechanics created transistors in our reality?

Quote:

You, being a romantic of, almost Popperian, scientific ideals, like to remind us of what-science-should-be/"really"-is; I prefer to remind us of the social context, linguistic prerequisites and ontological presuppositions of science. This is to say, my argument is about the practice of science; your counter-argument is about an interpretation of its ideology -- your counter-argument has no relevant bearing on my argument.




The practice of quantum mechanics is not done by the general public. Most people can't explain what science is. They just know it creates computers and TV's.

Quote:

Theories are lies. They cannot be true (extensively they are reductive, incomplete, obfuscating...), yet they are used and interpreted as if they were truths. This is the lie -- the necessary lie. Let the lies flourish, but let us not forget that they are lies.




Quantum theory can be used as true in a practical way because it is so accurate and broad. I agree that the general public has a "wrong" idea about science and that you can call it a lie from that point of view.

Is it a lie that the moon causes the tides?

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: Annom]
    #5485321 - 04/06/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Fospher]
    #5485457 - 04/06/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Pay attention to my first response to psilocyberin, and you'll see that it's not one of anger, but of complete indifference. He chose to carry on the discussion, so I just showed him his own flaw with his own words. If you dont want to discuss it, then stop posting.




A. Didn't say that I didn't want to discuss it.

B. Gave advice on how not to discuss it.

C. I'm not discussing it, you are. :tongue:

:smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5485466 - 04/06/06 05:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I think this thread was meant to discuss the interpretations of Quantum mechanics, not mathematics.




This thread posed the question "What quantam mechanics means to you?" The resulting discussion, thusforth, has been centered around general discussions about quantam mechanics.

Personally, I do not know much about quantam mechanics. I have read a bit into it, and do not recall most of what I read. :grin: I did remember a statement that revolved around the notion that understandings of quantam mechanics without understanding the underlying mathematics involved are like metaphors that allude to the concepts, so I offered that perspective to be included in the mix. :wink:

I'm not sure where you will draw a line between interpretations of quantam mechanics and mathematics, so I'm sure your statement that mathematics is not to be discussed is wrong. :lol: 

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5485474 - 04/06/06 05:20 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yes. In this instance quantum theory presupposes many concepts and things which are a priori for, and embedded in, a non-scientific, non-objective linguistic/thought scheme. Such things are "light", "walls", "lasers", "slits", "we", "see", "by"; in addition the language you are using, or the language Qm uses is entirely rife with metaphor; your words don't denote real things -- they only refer, and/or are, the ideas which they are. They are in fact not real.




I'm not an objectivist and I do not say that our observations are really out there. That doesn't mean that by naming our (subjective) observations, we create reality. Our observations create reality.

So I do agree with the fact that we can't be sure if they are real. But it is not science to deal with that. Science is about the world we observer/perceive. I call this observed world reality. So reality is not the truth in my definition.

Light is the name for something we observe. It doesn't say whether it is really there or not. Science tries to make the most objective (subjective)observations as possible and tries explain and predict these observations using the scientific method.


Quote:


Who are Shroomery users then, if not the general public? Quantum theory is bigger here, and at most "philosophy" forums, than New Age.



Internet people who like to ask the why question. The Shroomery users are not the general public. The Shroomery members in this forum are not at all average people. I'm not saying they are better or worse, but they sure are not the general public.

This is irrelevant for the discussion though....

Quote:

Does one need to explain what science is in order to understand it? Why don't you tell me what science is, so then we have a definition to go by.




Science is the observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena using the scientific method. Science tries to create models of the world we observe(=reality for me) using a system that tries to be as objective as possible.

Philosophy Of science explains that its purpose is to explain everything we perceive around us in as concise and formal a manner as possible.

"According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is 'a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.' No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth. " - http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=...umber=1&catID=2

Quote:

What is accuracy and broadness? My hands are quite accurate and broad, they are practical. This computer screen is quite broad, it's accurate and its practical. My hand and the computer screen are however almost useless for thinking up poetry, digesting fruit and thinking about...quantum mechanics.




That is a good question I can't easily answer. But if we can create a computer using a model of reality(the world we observe) then I would say that model is accurate.

Quote:

I think you're still misunderstanding my use of the word "lie". It's not threatening to you in that way -- yet it is certainly a threat.



Please explain to me why it is a threat.

Quote:


It's a lie that the moon causes the tides and it's a lie that A causes B.




We again have a different definition of a word. I agree that it is just a model of what happens, but I would not call that a lie.


I do understand your point and I do agree with it in some way. I just think that I prefer to use reality as the world we observe it because I like to use logic and can't use logic when I don't assume a objective reality(while I don't say this assumption is correct).

You prefer to look at reality as something we can't never be sure about. I agree with that, but don't like it because I can end all my logic thoughts with that.

Science is nothing more than a fairy tale, but a very nice one that is way better than any other fairy tale I've ever read  :grin:

Fairy tales are not lies because they don't claim it is the Truth!

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5487879 - 04/06/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quantum mechanics, like most great lies, is practiced and interpreted by those oblivious enough to think that it can describe a non-existent reality. Quantum mechanics, through quantum-level description, has created reality; the believers of quantum mechanics fall for the confabulation and think these lies are objectively present.

I find it funny that you're able to say this using a machine that would not exist were it not for the insights given us by QM.

I call it a lie because it is not True

So, our success at inventing the transistor, the atomic power reactor, the medical MRI scanner, and the microwave oven are all based on a lie, something untrue. The same for our understanding of why insulin helps diabetics and why milk curdles, also based on a lie.

An untruth that, by some astonishing coincidence, nevertheless manages to explain observations and accurately predict the outcome of experiments better than any other endeavor in human history.

By coincidence... despite it being a lie?

Alright... I suppose you think the Earth if flat too, eh? :rofl2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/06/06 09:05 PM)

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Diploid]
    #5488946 - 04/07/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Everything is a lie when you consider the world as we perceive it a lie. Makes no practical sense to me.

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: yewhew]
    #5489137 - 04/07/06 07:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think, perceivable reality is a good representation of what we could define as 'truth' :wink:
If it matters that quantumspace is organised differently than the space that we inhibit and perceive, I am very indifferent about.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5489205 - 04/07/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Also, that is one thing that always fucked me up in regards to QM.... quantum spin. I never could grasp how one full rotation is actually 1 and a half 360's.




im not actually sure what that means

but im pretty positive quantum spin isnt actually the electron spinning around


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Annom]
    #5489843 - 04/07/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Everything is a lie when you consider the world as we perceive it a lie. Makes no practical sense to me.




Remember the other half of the bargain? That this statement seems almost to be a tautology in that sense, but it is only a reminder to keep us from stupidity?

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: Diploid]
    #5489889 - 04/07/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you *DELETED* [Re: Annom]
    #5489932 - 04/07/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

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Offlinedanlennon3
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5490247 - 04/07/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

well i didnt know anything about quantum mechanics until i watched what the bleep do we know.... but when i watched the Nova special about string theory... IT HIT ME! my friend and I were each on an 8th of potent mushrooms.. we were both feelin good and decided to watch the string theory.. well this movie launched our trip into a level 5! I lost total control but had total control at the same time(hard to explain).We knew everything and nothing at the same time. It was perfect balance. we are experienced trippers and this trip was definately the most intense ever. we had the best time and we didnt even need to do a single thing at the time.. we didnt need to listen to music, we didnt need to explore the woods, nothing... nothing was perfect enough. we just chilled at my house and talked. we had no expectations so when something did happen, like a friend called, we were even happier. Later that night i did go to the woods with a sober friend and i had the most amazing visuals... this was many hours after the peek.. best time of my life


--------------------
"Psychedelics should be used not to escape reality, but to embrace it"


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5490521 - 04/07/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You're getting caught up on the world lie

No, I'm using English as our common means of communicating. I can't read your mind. If you do not mean 'lie', then you should use the correct word.

You're thinking that there's something wrong with lies -- that we must always been honest!

Now you've really lost me. :confused:

Is the thrust of your argument that (almost) nothing can be known objectively? If so, then you're off topic and not saying much anyway as that statement applies to everything, not just QM.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5490530 - 04/07/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Also, that is one thing that always fucked me up in regards to QM.... quantum spin. I never could grasp how one full rotation is actually 1 and a half 360's.

I'm not sure what you mean by 360, but the quantum spin number of an electron is about angular momentum, not about actual spin in the macro sense of the word. Electrons have angular momentum (called spin for lack of a better word) but they do not 'spin'.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/07/06 05:38 PM)

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OfflineAmethyst
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Re: what quantum mechanics means to you [Re: Diploid]
    #5494179 - 04/08/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quantum physics, the science of infinite possibilities :smile: Is it even a science at all?


--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."

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