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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: omnicrap]
    #6387406 - 12/19/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Great posts indeed.

Additionally, it should be said that the quality of the crystal should have absolutely no influence on the potential "strength" of a hit on paper, unless you're making the assumption that one of the impurities has a psychoactive effect when combined with an amount of lsd.

Even if you've got some gram of disturbingly low, 33% lsd, it would not be impossible to get 600ug of your mixture on a hit, meaning 200ug of actual working lsd. Few would consider this a weak dose.

I've just heard too many times, "ah, I took two and it didn't do anything. That's probably because it's supposed to be from amber (or insert crystal name) crystal." The truth is that profit margins or sheet laying slip-ups determine your blotter strength. There's nothing stopping anyone from laying 40ug hits of 95%+ crystal.


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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6387533 - 12/19/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Great comments Chemiker. Thanks!

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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6387823 - 12/19/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Koala Koolio said:
unless you're making the assumption that one of the impurities has a psychoactive effect when combined with an amount of lsd.


Right and part of the point is that a "bioassay" is not really a reliable way to tell if those impurities have an effect. Now, of course, it's possible that an impurity could have an obvious effect. I mean, if you notice that your heart rate is going at 180 bpm, then you should probably consider contamination by a by-product as being likely.

In the case of LSD, you have to consider that since LSD has been the most potent hallucinogen known since its effects were discovered in 1943, that the chances of a byproduct having an effect at a similar dose are going to be very low. In the 63 years since 1943, there have been a handful of drugs known to bind 5-HT2A with the affinity similar to LSD (I'm thinking dragonfly and bromodragonfly). Those drugs were produced using rational drug discovery methods, with computational models and so forth. A byproduct from an LSD synthesis is going to be an LSD derivative, many of which have already been explored. Even if one of those byproducts is active, usually your byproducts aren't making up more than 50% of your sample (and if they are, I suggest you quit the synthesis game). It's really, really unlikely that someone is going to accidentally produce a byproduct that is pharmacologically active in that range.

And like I was saying with example of eating two different looking crystals, I think you have to acknowledge that it's just human nature to be biased in this fashion. I deal with crystals on a daily basis, but I'm sure that if I did two LSD syntheses, I'd prefer to eat the pretty looking cystal over the black precipitate (even though I rationally know better!). This is a powerful psychedelic drug we're talking about. I think it's pretty obvious that the most likely explanation for many differences between the two hypothetical crystals would be placebo (AKA "set and setting").

The only reliable way, with human experimentation, to establish if the pharmacological differences were due to an impurity or not would be to do blind tests on a range of users. If there were a consistent difference between the two samples in that case, then you could start pointing the finger at impurities.

Major problems in studying the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs is that (1) their effects are variable, even for the same user with the same dose and the same substance under the same condition and (2) their effects are subjective, so they're very hard to classify into discrete pharmacological terms.

I've always been interested in this kind of thing and could go on at length about it, but I often ask myself the same questions: Why do different people interpret the effects of the same drug in such different terms? Why can same person perceive such variable effects from the same drug on two different occasions? I think that the answer doesn't lie in the pharmacology of the drugs per se, but lies within the user. Unfortunately, a lot of people equate the word "placebo" with "imagined" or something like that, but that's an oversimplification. Personally, I don't think that "placebo" is even the right word to explain these differences.

I think it's related to something far more fundamental in the human experience. It's the same reason why one day, your favourite book might be Slaughterhouse Five and a year later, you might hate the book. It's the same reason that you're able to shift from seeing Dali's The Three Ages as a simple collection of three faces one moment and then a much more complex tableau the next moment. Perception is all about how we interpret the raw information fed to our senses. Under the influence of a psychedelic drug, perception is radically altered and that includes our own perception of what that drug is doing.

EDIT - I didn't want it all in bold.

Edited by Chemiker (12/19/06 10:06 PM)

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6387849 - 12/19/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

haha yea the chemiker posts are really informative and nicely profound... i loved them i just wish i had more of a scientifical mind so i could better understand them... but omnicrap thats a sick ass verse u got under that post damn old SUBLIME from the second hand smoke cd actually if im at all correct could b 40 oz idk i have both and listen to both enough to not be able to necessarally differ between the two wen teh dont come out of my disc changer :mrt:


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hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

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Edited by ashfiken (12/19/06 07:38 PM)

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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6387870 - 12/19/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I'm impressed.


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ashfiken]
    #6388449 - 12/19/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

ashfiken said:
i loved them i just wish i had more of a scientifical mind so i could better understand them...


If there is something that you are not clear on, then please ask. If you don't understand it then others probably don't either.

Remember, I had to learn how to talk the talk and walk the walk too, so there was a point in my life when I "didn't get" any of what I'm saying now. If you need help understanding a concept or a term or anything in one of my posts, please feel free to ask.

The unfortunate thing is that crystals haven't been studied all that well. Even modern journals still have articles answering questions like, "Why do some crystals bend?" The reason that questions like this haven't been answered so well is because people like me need high quality crystals in order to get the data we need, so we just discard the garbage crystals without thinking twice. So, it's people like me who notice that crystallization is still not too well understood, but since our research isn't involved in understanding the properties of crystals in general, we just use "hit or miss" methods to get good crystals (at least in my field, protein crystallography).

Chemical engineers probably have a pretty good understanding of crystallization. Chemists more or less only need a basic understanding of how it works. I think that as sooner or later, with all the people working in protein crystallography, we'll start to understand crystallization really well. It is pretty funny and telling, to see journal articles from this year trying to answer questions about crystals that seem so basic.

Another thing I forget to mention is pretty important when it comes to different forms of LSD crystals having different effects. It is well known in the pharmaceutical industry that different crystal polymorphs of the same drug can have different pharmacological effects. Some crystals might dissolve more rapidly than others, which affects their distribution in the body. Some crystals might not dissolve as well as others, which can decrease their biological availability. The irony of this is that it's possible for a 100% pure crystal of a drug in one crystal form to result in less drug entering the body than a less pure crystal in a different form! This probably goes against all conventional wisdom that "LSD is LSD is LSD." It's entirely possible that some crystal polymorphs of LSD aren't absorbed by the body as easily or quickly as others.

Edited by Chemiker (12/19/06 10:56 PM)

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Offlineashfiken
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6388685 - 12/19/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

wow thx chemiker i completely understood all of that last post. i guess i just yearn to grasp exactly how everything works with lsd but i doubt i will ever truly know. not ever being very competent of chemistry myself im sure has something to do with it. as a matter of fact now that you mention chemical engineers i do know one pretty well he actually works at a place called chemglass and i know he used back in the day so... maybe ill give him a shot talkin first hand to someone might help me a little bit better. although i still do stick with my first statement that all of your information is fantastac, chemiker. maybe if i also do a little more research on my own as well on lsd then i could have a better understanding from both you and my chemical engineer friend and then can bring together both of what you two say in order to get a more commplete picture... Thanks so much again chemiker


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: ashfiken]
    #6395775 - 12/22/06 12:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Does acid degrade if it's on paper, or does that only happen in solution? What does acid turn into when it degrades?

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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: moecat]
    #6403741 - 12/27/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

In solution, LSD will isomerize to iso-LSD, although apparently the equilibrium concentration is 10% iso-LSD to 90% LSD.

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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6404927 - 12/28/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah man, I've noticed that certain types of LSD have a specific feel. Everything sold as silver especially gives me a signature feel. whether or not this is related to purity, placebo, something else.....who knows. Well, somebody probably does, but I don't. I have some theories, but.....that's all they are. I'm going to say it's not placebo, and related to the LSD itself becuase I've noticed it as long as I've been tripping, before I even knew the term "LSD crystal", so.....


Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that Owsley, widely believed to be the best LSD chemist ever, was an alchemist. The basic principal behind this is that the universe is a mind.  He believed that since LSD itself modulates the mind, it's highly sensitive to the environment in which it's made. He approached making LSD as an alchemical act, and valued purity of mind and soul as much as he valued the purity of chemistry.

I'm not sure if any of the current chemists follow that, though I bet at least one or two still do. I do know that there is still a lot of extremely pure LSD out there.  I've taken a lot of LSD over the years, and I have to say that some of the doses out now are the cleanest I've ever had, hands down.  To the point where I'm like DAMN!!!! the whole trip, in amazement, and I've had a lot of really clean doses over the years. I'm also noticing that the potency seems to be higher again.  A few years ago I had to take at least 2 hits to really trip, now I'm noticing a lot more doses where one takes me to where 2, and even 3-4 of some of those hits took me. 

It's making me a very happy man.
:grin:
:heartpump: :sunny:


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Dark_Star]
    #6405014 - 12/28/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Dark_Star said:
Yeah man, I've noticed that certain types of LSD have a specific feel.


Have you ever tested different crystal types blind? If you haven't, then clearly we cannot draw predictive correlations between different crystal types and different effects.

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is that Owsley, widely believed to be the best LSD chemist ever

Probably a myth. An LSD synthesis is not the "impossible" task everyone thinks it is. It should be relatively simple to get repeatably good yields of high purity (which is exactly why LSD syntheses are published).

was an alchemist.

What is the significance of that supposed to be?

He approached making LSD as an alchemical act, and valued purity of mind and soul as much as he valued the purity of chemistry.

I doubt that his different approach resulted in any special.

I've taken a lot of LSD over the years, and I have to say that some of the doses out now are the cleanest I've ever had, hands down.

I don't believe that you can know that on the basis of simply ingesting the drug. What does "dirty acid" feel like and what does "dirty acid" mean?

Well, I suppose "dirty acid" would be LSD with *active* impurities in it. The problem is two-fold: (1) other than iso-LSD, nobody seems to know what impurities are present. (2) Given the highly variable and subjective nature of psychedelic drugs, I don't believe that anyone can guage the purity of their LSD sample by eating it (a lot of this is simply because LSD is so uniquely potent, that it's very unlikely you're going to run into an impurity with any effect).

A few years ago I had to take at least 2 hits to really trip, now I'm noticing a lot more doses where one takes me to where 2, and even 3-4 of some of those hits took me.

I haven't used any in years, but most of the stuff I had was roughly predictable in terms of how intense the experience would be based on apparent dosage, but I did have some notable exceptions.

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6405455 - 12/28/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

^^^LSD troll. :thumbdown:


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You are everything's way of feeling itself.

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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6405622 - 12/28/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Are you the one who said that undergound labs use GC/MS to test LSD sample purity?

If you can back this up at all or provide some kind of hint as to what the GC/MS revealed, then please contribute to the discussion. I have a really hard time imagining an underground lab with a mass spectrometer. Just being able to operate a mass spectrometer is a relatively rare skill, as it is such a specialized piece of equipment.

I am disgusted by getting such a close-minded response. I don't appreciate the flame, or the attempt at discrediting me, or the obvious attempt at dragging me into a flame war, just to end the thread. Is this how you want it to work? If you don't like what someone says, then you try to put the thread an end? Censorship. I don't care if you want to be willfully ignorant, but don't force others to remain ignorant.

Edited by Chemiker (12/28/06 04:07 PM)

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: mecreateme]
    #6405668 - 12/28/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Why is it so hard to believe in the power of suggestion or placebo on a drug that makes you more suggestable than perhaps any other substance on the planet?

I find the stories of crystal, types, families, sheet laying, etc very fascinating. Not because different kinds of crystal produce different kinds of trips, but because the stories are real. Whether or not the percieved effects happen because of the causes assumed, or the power of the human mind is unimportant. The stories are part of a culture, and they're interesting tales. That's all that matters.

I appreciate chinacat's posts because I believe he is telling the truth, and sharing his wonderful experiences. He has stated that he's not a chemist, and that he's simply sharing his first hand experience. That is the real life of at least some people involved in the LSD game, and it makes for great reading.

But Chemiker has great posts too. His goal isn't to disrupt your world, and make you believe that anything you ever read about LSD is some deliberate lie. He's here to get to the bottom of things in a scientific way. And, perhaps he's in the wrong place to do so, because few other individuals here have the same approach, or the drive, or the same depth in their facts.

You can't shoot him down for what he's trying to do. You can (and I'm sure he would greatly and seriously enjoy) disproving any of his ideas with hard facts the way he attempts to. But you can't combat points in this way:

Q: I'm sorry but I can't accept your experience as fact if you were under the suggestion of the crystal type before hand. It couldn't even *begin* to be verified without a double blind test.

A: Look buddy... I know what I felt, and if you don't believe me, that's your problem. Enough people here have felt the effects of different crystal types to know there's a difference.

Q: But... those people too were under the suggestion of the crystal type?

I think that few people have any knowledge of what they're getting. And even less of them have the truth. And probably zero of them attempt to verify these percieved differences with a blind test.

Which leads me to my last point...

Q: I realize that there are stories, or perhaps myths on the subject. I'm looking instead for facts that can be proven based on the points I've made.

A: Haven't you read chinacat's crystal to blotter thread? The answers are all right there, and no one gives a fuck if you don't believe it.

Sounds way too much like:

Q: I realize that you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. I'm unable to believe it myself as I've seen no real evidence of it, only stories told in the bible.

A: The answers are all right there for you in the bible. If you've read it, you must be aware that Jesus is god. Anyone around here who has read the bible can tell you that.


--------------------
You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!

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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6405718 - 12/28/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

And, I just want to make it clear, once again (I think this is the third time I'm going to say this):

I am not doubting anyone's experiences. People often misinterpret me and think that I'm saying something equivalent to "you did not experience what you just told me you experienced." I have little doubt that when people believe they're getting "amber" it has one feel and "fluff" has a different feel if they say so. What I doubt is that there is sufficient justification to believe that

(1) anybody has enough information to make definitive claims about the purity of the different types of crystals referred to by many people here. I say this on the basis of my own experience with crystals. Nobody has shown repeatable experiments with different LSD crystals in which the purity was assayed. I believe that many of the crystals referred to would easily appear under a wide variety of conditions, but that the purity would not be uniform, even for crystals of the same appearance.

(2) anybody has a remote idea of what the physiological effects of different crystal types are. The subjective effects of pure psychedelic drugs are highly variable. Combine that with uncertainties about the crystals and you're left with a bunch of unknowns.

By taking a look at some of the other threads about LSD crystals, I have already proposed hypotheses as to their nature.

For example, I suspect that "amber" and 'the black stuff' (or purple precipitate / crystal) contain the exact same impurity. I suspect that the impurity is an ergoline dimer, with dimerization occuring at C-2. Clearly, the "amber" stuff has less impurity, but given how strongly dimers of this nature are known to absorb light, I think that any "black stuff" could seriously range between total garbage (50% pure of less) to 95% pure.

So, I think the fact that I am forming hypotheses clearly means that I am taking other peoples's reports about LSD crystals seriously. What I can't take seriously are what I suspect are conclusion about these crystals without sufficient evidence (and I suspect that some of the assertions are flat out wrong).

One thing I like about psychedelic drugs is that it brings science to the limits of experience.

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InvisibleJAP
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6406020 - 12/28/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

......

Edited by JAP (01/01/07 05:11 PM)

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InvisibleKoala Koolio
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6406046 - 12/28/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Care to explain how you've reached such a conclusion, and what starting materials were found (and how)?

Welcome to the forum.


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OfflineChemiker
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: JAP]
    #6406064 - 12/28/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm, hmmm hmm. I can't say that it'd be easy to guess how iso-LSD would incorporate itself into a crystal structure. It's not very different from LSD, of course, but small differences can mean everything, especially in terms of external crystal morphology.

For certain, we can say that iso-LSD would not be responsible for a darkly coloured product.

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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Chemiker]
    #6406731 - 12/28/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

No flame war meant. More it was a joke, if you people keep up on current events you might recall the LSD troll incident in Colorado. But I also meant to address your troll like posting. This thread will not end in any way from me making a small comment, please don't play things out like they have already happened. Hopefully you got all your name calling out of the way and we can get on the discussion.

I don't recall saying that ever, but there is a thing you can do, which is called sending off your chemicals to people that do have this equipment. In fact, if I recall correctly, Wiccan_Seeker posts about how he has his drugs checked in laboratories where he is at. I am guessing you are under the guise that nobody would willingly do this, because of the obvious legal ramifications, but in some countries it is no big deal.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!

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Invisiblemoecat
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Re: LSD crystal purity [Re: Koala Koolio]
    #6406808 - 12/28/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I never even heard of crystal. Only blotter, microdots, etc.

Edited by moecat (12/28/06 11:32 PM)

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