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InvisibleMycoMacgyver
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What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom??
    #5064261 - 12/14/05 07:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hey everybody, i'm a first time poster, long time reader. I'm posting this to ask a question that has been bugging me alot lately, especially while tripping. It is this: What is the purpouse of psylicyben(sp?)/Psylicin in the living organism. Is it just a protein needed for the normal growth and development of the fruit, or is it some kind of defense mechanism to keep hungry animals from eating it. I guess i would ask the same thing about marijuana and THC. i haven't been able to find the answer to this anywhere on the internet yet, so i was hoping  one of the wise shroomers here would know. Thanks! :grin:

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InvisibleMycoMacgyver
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: MycoMacgyver]
    #5064359 - 12/14/05 08:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

damn it nobody is posting here...

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Offlinebkmb128
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: MycoMacgyver]
    #5064389 - 12/14/05 08:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm.. My roomate was wondering the same thing.

My belief is that it is in there as a defense mechanism, as it makes dogs have seizures, but, thanks to humans, they are a bit more numerous because we purposely grow them.


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InvisibleDragonaut

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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: MycoMacgyver]
    #5064396 - 12/14/05 08:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

This is a good question I've wondered myself from time to time.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: MycoMacgyver]
    #5064440 - 12/14/05 08:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The mushrooms are in a continual state of psychedellic inebriation, and they like it that way!

all joking aside, though. I'm going to have to assume it's a defense mechanism.

You see, poisonous organisms have the drawback that if an animal eats them, it dies. This is all well and good for revenge, but if organisms produce toxins that are nonlethal the animal lives to remember not to eat that organism again. This is the reason, for example, that certain toads produce psychoactive chemicals. Were you a predator, you would not want to eat an animal that would leave you incapacitated and vulnerable as you went batshit fucking loco. And you'd teach your kids not to eat it. And that organism would eventually have a significant decrease in number of predatory deaths.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5064497 - 12/14/05 08:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I never found the answer to that. It could be for a reason we wont see clearly for very many years. And it could be as weird as to hint at the role DNA plays in symbiosis----> Like what if it was a defence mechanism, and a way to become propagated by higher forms such as ourselves and other primates(who seem to like to eat them and no doubt spread their spores around in a very efficiant way.
I dont think anyone knows for sure.
I always thought it would be cool if psi. somehow drove the growth of the mushroom. For example if you have ever tried to sublingually use(ingest) uncolonized BRF/VERmiculite on a half covered cake, it has psilocybin in it, and quite a bit of it. I know how unlikely this is to be a reason for it, but I always thought it was a cool idea. Partly because of the idea that water seepage would work to the mycilium's advantage this way if the mycilium was drawn toward psilocybin so to keep its "roots" deep. Just an idea.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: MycoMacgyver]
    #5064526 - 12/14/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

In the majority of scientific opinion evolution is based on random changes in an organism which cause survival/do not cause lack of survival in some combination. Since psilocybin makes up such a small amount of the organism, it is probably not particularly consequential to the biochemistry of the mushroom (I do not know if this is the case, probabilistically it seems likely).

I was under the impression that psilocybin would only affect occasional mammals as a drug/poison. So... perhaps psilocybin is a helpful poison, or maybe it's just a successful genus of mushrooms anyway.


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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: bkmb128]
    #5064557 - 12/14/05 09:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"makes dogs have seizures"???? i was kind of under the impression that it just made them act a little funny.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5064569 - 12/14/05 09:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

That does seem to be the most likely scenario ExplosiveMango .
It would indeed be weird for a plant to secrete a substance that it is drawn to for the purpose of good growth. Animals do such interesting things though. I was just surprized when the substrate was potent but not in direct contact with the mycilium by far.
It would be neat to see a strand or arm of mycilium getting to the opposite side of a jar you inoculated on one side within days only because pure psilocybin solution was present on the other side. Im almost sure this idea has no factual basis though.

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Offlinestemmer
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: stemmer]
    #5064583 - 12/14/05 09:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ive actually seen a person seizure after eating a quarter of shrooms. He didnt foam at the mouth, but shook violently, drooled everywhere and scared the shit out of everybody. Not the type of "kids" I wanted to be around, EVER. I dont even know why I was there at the time. I was probably picking up some weed.
If this could happen to a human, im sure it can happen with a dog.

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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: stemmer]
    #5064600 - 12/14/05 09:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Not 100% related, but had - there's a book about animals that seek out psychadelic states, a review of the book...

Quote:


It?s not natural? is a refrain we hear time and again from the more conservative elements of our society, often as a protest against homosexuality, but also as an admonition on the joys of intoxication.

Bruce Bagemihl?s groundbreaking Biological Exhuberance ? which details homosexual and autosexual behaviour in hundreds of species of animals ? comprehensively demolishes the first argument, and is heavy enough to be useful in battering the message home if needs be. Samorini?s slender tome may not be much use in a fight, but in the right hands the information it contains has the potential to spark a revolution.

The bottom line: animals like to get high ? hundreds of animal species, from the ant to the elephant, actively seek out hallucinogenic plants. Samorini is careful to distinguish between accidental intoxication ? nature?s equivalent of being spiked ? and the deliberate, methodical, at times even aggressive search for psychedelic satisfaction. This somewhat startling fact raises vital questions, not least that of animal consciousness.

If even an ant can tell the difference between being straight and high, in this instance by sucking secretions from the abdomen of a lomechusa beetle, what does this tell us about the consciousness of something like a mandrill, which munches the intensely potent iboga root, then waits up to two hours for the effects to kick in before engaging in territorial battle with another mandrill? Equally fascinating is the fact that many animals appear to use psychedelics recreationally ? and that not all individuals of a particular species will indulge, just as some humans are more partial to tripping out than others. One in the eye for the stark behaviourists, it would seem.

All of Samorini?s evidence comes from first-hand observation by himself and others, though it is of the ?we gave an elephant 300 tabs of LSD, it keeled over and died? school of science. But he does take great delight in describing the orderly queues formed by his neighbourhood cats as they take hits on his catnip plant; or of being butted out of the way by an Alpine goat who thought he was going to munch a clump of tasty psilocybin mushrooms before it did.

Too careful to speculate at any length on why animals take drugs, here Samorini concedes to Ronald K Siegel (from whose Intoxication much of the observational material is also drawn) and Edward de Bono. Siegel suggests that intoxication is an evolutionary force, while de Bono talks of the value of depatterning in evolutionary development ? forcing the mind to break with established routines and habits, and so discover new approaches to important matters of survival.

Unquestionably, certain psychedelic plants also improve perception and sharpen the senses, giving the psychedelicised predator, or prey, a distinct evolutionary advantage. But if Samorini won?t speculate, we certainly can. If animals use psychedelic drugs, and we know that Stone Age humans did, and presumably their ancestors, might we not wonder ? in Terence McKenna mode ? what kind of role they played in the evolution of human consciousness?

Unfortunately this is a short book, an overview rather than an in-depth study, but that necessary work will surely come. Until then, this must be one of the most inspiring books about animals ? or drugs ? that you are likely to read.





Sounds interesting - may see if I can find it some where. The book mentioned on homosexuality is of interest also, may make for some interesting reading over my christmas vacation.

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Offlinemasterclam
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: kaniz]
    #5064727 - 12/14/05 10:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I'm definetely going to need to find that book, thanks for bringing it up. I think that the psychadelic properties of mushrooms may just be another way of propogating themselves, as many people grow them for those properties, they have pretty much ensured their survival for a long time, much the same way as edible plants have.


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Offlinesublime22
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: masterclam]
    #5064992 - 12/14/05 11:00 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I read somewhere that THC in cannabis acts as a chemical that retards the growth of other species of plants around it, giving the plant an edge in the race for life.  In mushrooms, i'm not sure.  What I am sure of is that cannabis and psilocybin mushrooms have discovered the ultimate ecological advantage... humans (the top of the food chain) defend and cultivate them, ensuring their survival for a very long time.  Quite the symbiotic relationship.

Update:  Sorry masterclam, i didn't read your post before I wrote mine... great minds think alike :mushroom2:

Edited by sublime22 (12/14/05 11:02 PM)

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Invisiblemusher_420
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: sublime22]
    #5065473 - 12/15/05 01:22 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I like to believe that mushrooms initially developed psilocybin to allow primitive humans to gain enlightenment from a greater divine being.


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: musher_420]
    #5065679 - 12/15/05 02:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

this issue has been discussed/argued previously (several times), so far.. no conclusive answers have been reached.
seems consensus is to agree to disagree.


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Invisiblemusher_420
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: Mindzpore]
    #5065691 - 12/15/05 02:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's an imposable question. It's like asking why did god make the sky blue? Or what exactly does blue look like to you?


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: musher_420]
    #5065706 - 12/15/05 03:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"Because you touch yourself at night!!!"

Sorry, but I had to quote family guy for that one :rofl:


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OfflineMindzpore
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: musher_420]
    #5065754 - 12/15/05 03:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

musher_420 said:
It's an imposable question. It's like asking why did god make the sky blue? Or what exactly does blue look like to you?




actually, god did not make the sky blue, its the reflected light from the oceans that do that (but its a neat trick).


--------------------
Mindzpores words of wisdom:
"If you think something is foolproof, you just haven't met proper fools".

Wiccan_Seeker said:
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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: Mindzpore]
    #5065761 - 12/15/05 03:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well if one were to assume that all facets of the universe were decided at it's creation by it's creator then yes it would be that god made it blue. So basically if god made the universe then he made everything the way it is.

but this is getting off topic.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: What do the Psychoactive alkaloids do for the mushroom?? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5065776 - 12/15/05 04:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Lets cut his head off!!! he was not 100% "related"!!!

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