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InvisibleHolydiver
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Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it?
    #5058876 - 12/13/05 08:01 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

My manure is generally leeched and aged in all seasons, and is generally stored within 2 weeks of collection. No firefang ever appears, whether it be from the cold temps or just the fact that it's collected in such a short period. That being said, I don't consider the presence of firefang to be a prerequisite for a strong performing mushroom substrate--mine does exceptionally without it.

So, the argument against sterilizing manure is that you're killing off beneficial bacteria, correct? What bacteria or microbial form is at stake here, other than firefang?

Who here has tried to sterilize horse manure via the microwave in autoclave bags, or by other means, and spawned in open air, and what was your experience?


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InvisibleLiquidkick
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5059189 - 12/13/05 09:12 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Check out Blue Helix's grow logs, he has been able to do it. :mattz: use the search engine! :hulk:


Edited by Liquidkick (12/13/05 09:14 PM)


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InvisibleHolydiver
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Liquidkick]
    #5059343 - 12/13/05 09:49 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I think you need to develop some reading comprehension before telling me to use the search engine. Spawned in open air is the catch here, not sterilization followed by inoculation from liquid culture, where the substrate remains totally sealed in autoclave bags until full colonization is achieved.

I'm suggesting full sterilization, followed by open-air spawning, then laid directly into fruiting tubs.


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5059593 - 12/13/05 10:36 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

- :grin:-->
My experience above.

Nuking h/poo doesn't sterilize it (which - I know - you know).
It heats it up enough to kill most nasties, it may contain.
It's sort of a semi-sterilization.
What you have to be careful about.
Is that the h/poo doesn't contain any intact grass/hay/oat seeds.
(often the case if gathered from stable piles)
Those will cause you fit's, further along.
As, (often) endospores sprout out some blue/green funk - late in the run.

Fire fang & other microbes are just good gravy on a substrates meal menu (dead or alive).
You don't get fire fang in/on yours.
As it is not from/in BIG piles, with lots of ammonia smell.
Then allowed to heat up to the point fire fang thrives.

By no means is fire fang required.
H/poo without it does well.


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5060287 - 12/14/05 01:14 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

i thought the reason we pasteurized instead of sterilizing the manure was because some of the beneficial bacteria(sorry i have no idea which ones, this could be a myth!) supposedly they helped fight against contams by perhaps taking the space of where a contam would take hold yet not being harmful to the growing myc? or something to that effects?

simply- i thought pasteurizing meant less contams


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: mattymonkey]
    #5061012 - 12/14/05 06:26 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

matty, apsteurisation serves the purpose of destroying many of the harmfull stuff in the
poo whereas keeping it spartially alive in order to aid to total colonisation prior
than germination of nasties.

as to say it again, pasteurisation is done in order to keep the beneficial bacteria,
as u said urself, and to be able to do OA spawning.

if u can spawn within sterile conditions, there is no need for pasteurisation,
unless one feels funky doing so :wink:

i have successfully done both, pasteurized and sterilized bulk substrates,
had more success with the pasteurized though (that was b4 hepa days)
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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InvisibleLiquidkick
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5062721 - 12/14/05 04:10 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Try it then and come back and tell us. :matrix2:


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5065064 - 12/15/05 01:16 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Holydiver, while in my latest runs I have sterilized substrates high in either manure or, when at all possible, agar's heavenly compost  :crazy2:, the sterilized substrate was treated in a sterile manner; that is, I didn't allow it to be contaminated with bacteria or mold via outside air or otherwise.  If I had done that, the grain in my substrate would have immediately contaminated. 

As for pure manure or compost, my intuitive feeling about this is that the warnings to not sterilize manure are way overstated and probably don't make any difference.  Manure and compost don't contaminate easily because they no longer have the nutritional profile bacteria require to spiral out of control.  The bacteria had their shot at the substrate, and it's spent from their prospective.  Furthermore, the nutrient profile doesn't change if one sterilizes it.


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Holydiver]
    #5065911 - 12/15/05 07:49 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

maybe the main reason that manure isnt sterilized is the fact that it takes a TON more energy to sterilize it then pasteurize it.. is that not reason enough?


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Invisibleohmatic
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: mattymonkey]
    #5065931 - 12/15/05 08:01 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mattymonkey said:
maybe the main reason that manure isnt sterilized is the fact that it takes a TON more energy to sterilize it then pasteurize it.. is that not reason enough?




keeping MAAAANY liters of water @ constant 80C for 1-2 hrs or keeping the pressure in a cooker
@ 15psi for 1-2 hrs is quite some energy difference imho,
i say the sterilization takes less energy.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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:penis: MONOTUB tek :sun: HEATBOMB tek :penis:

RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


Edited by ohmatic (12/15/05 08:11 AM)


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: ohmatic]
    #5065937 - 12/15/05 08:05 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

pasteurizing: keeping water at 170F for 45-60minutes
sterilizing: keeping water at 250F for at least an hour, probably 2..

i dont see what you're saying


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: mattymonkey]
    #5065938 - 12/15/05 08:07 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

it's the sheer amount of water being heated that you're overlooking


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: mattymonkey]
    #5065945 - 12/15/05 08:09 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

i say, well, lets take an average AA 941 filled with water and submerge some pillowcase with
straw inside.
case A

then take the same AA 941 and fill it with the equal ammount, but this time in spawnbags,
and just about half an inch water @ bottom.
sealed and started.
case B

in my eyes (and god i suck at physics), it would take a LOT more energy to
raise and constantly keep case A @ 80c for an hour than to bring case B
to 15psi and let cook for an hour,
as pressure once archived 1/4of of original power can be used to maintain temps.

what do you think of it now ?
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: debianlinux]
    #5065947 - 12/15/05 08:10 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

debianlinux said:
it's the sheer amount of water being heated that you're overlooking




EXACTLY my point !
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: debianlinux]
    #5065952 - 12/15/05 08:12 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

AHH OK thanks :smile:


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: mattymonkey]
    #5066075 - 12/15/05 09:18 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Ponder this.

Manure is 3 tier gang bang.

Bovine eats it, in bovines gut other microbes/bacteria have a go at it, once expelled everything out there as a go at it.

Only the strong survive.

So the turd pile is pretty well occupied with whatever is still munching down on it.

It is also depleted on most nutrients other things - besides those microbes in it - even look for. Hey, it's a shit pile.

On top of that, the microbes that do occupy that turd pile, defend their space fairly well.

So, any outside microbe tries to get a foothold, the homey's either eject them, kill or eat them.

All in all, the turd pile is some well defended turf.

Now, sterilize that turd pile.

Suddenly, it is no longer - well defended turf.

So, any blue/green mold gang that happens to wander by, can enter & set up housekeeping. :eek:

so, if you sterilize manure. Treat it like you would an LC.

In other words, be very very careful not to allow anything to come in contact with it.

Except, what you want to introduce into it. :grin:


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: agar]
    #5066090 - 12/15/05 09:29 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

oh yeah, i remember the bug gangbang that was going on in my recently gathered poo, lol :wink:

lotsa firefang though.
peace ohm :mushroom2:


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RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: ohmatic]
    #5066108 - 12/15/05 09:52 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Some of you get the point of this thread and some of you don't. The big question here is why can't microwaving be used to either achieve sterility or bring the substrate to the point at which harmful bacteria is killed? Time saving is the key here, not using a pressure cooker that takes the same amount of time as pasteurizing.

There are some good arguments about sterilizing horse manure and leaving it wide open for other contaminates. I personally feel that pasteurization is a bitch. I have multiple grows ready to be spawned right now, but I haven't because I HATE frickin' pasteurizing. If we can find an alternative to pasteurizing using a microwave, I'm all for it.


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: Wronguy]
    #5066252 - 12/15/05 10:56 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Wronguy said:
If we can find an alternative to pasteurizing using a microwave, I'm all for it.



well I have pastuerised in the microwave. It is easier to just boil away in the microwave though. I have just innoced a manure/verm mixture today so will let you know how I get on. It was microwaved until bone dry then moisture added back by LC. My microwave pasteurisation was done as follows.

The thing to understand is that at a low setting, your power is constant. Your material inside will lose heat relative to its surface area. Once you heat up a large weight/volume of material it insulates itself, the hot air in the microwave will further insulate itself too. Say you heat the poo to 160F, turn down low and microwave for 10mins and now check the temp and it is 165F on its lowest setting. Then you must either add more poo or shake the bag to loosen the poo opening up its surface area to allow more heat loss. Also taking into account the heat loss and hot air loss while taking the poo out to check the temp and shake it up. You may have a steady 160F after 10 minutes. But after 1 hour it maybe up to 170F since the air gets hotter and hotter inside insulating it more.

Once you have the correct settings to the weight and structure of the poo it should be easily repeatable. Keep notes.

Heating 1litre of water to 160F in a microwave takes about twice as long as bringing 500ml of water to 160F. BUT keeping them both at 160 is a different story, it does not take twice the power to keep them at 160, you are really just trying to stop heat loss from the microwave. You may know this already from doing LC's I microwave until boiling, then set it on low for 20-30mins, doesnt matter if it is 1 or 4 jars, the lowest or second lowest setting keeps them all simmering.

Nobody has mentioned cold pastuerisation methods, I added lime to manure which colonised but did not fruit, maybe I added too much. People use combinations of lime and bleach with great success on straw, not sure about manure though.


Edited by blackout (12/15/05 11:02 AM)


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Re: Sterilizing manure - - have you tried it? [Re: blackout]
    #5067869 - 12/15/05 06:04 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Honestly, I do not understand the issue. Turn up the heater on your house so you can have 170+ degree water come out, or use a good water cooler with heat (mine did over 170). I then pour this water into a stockpot full of poo and try to insulate it. After a half hour its only lost 10-15 degrees if you insulate it well. From there I take it outside and pour in a strainer (in windy open air) and squeeze it out with my clean but ungloved hands until i like the moisture content. Then I take it inside and spawn right then

I've done this 6 times now and have never had contaminants post-spawn. Poo is, the shit


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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