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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,937
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 questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. 
#4781259 - 10/10/05 10:33 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was looking at these rules
Quote:
Spirituality and Mysticism Forum Rules
#4780411 - 10/10/05 12:57 AM
Rules:
1) No Flaming. No Trolling. Flaming or spiritual bashing is not tolerated in this section.
Do not provoke others with incendiary or condescending remarks.
2) Be respectful. Please always respect the beliefs and thread guidelines of other members.
3) Questioning others beliefs is not allowed. For skeptic vs believer style debates on spiritual issues, visit the Philosophy and Rationalism board.
4) Be aware of, and use, the ?Report Post? icon (located on the bottom of every post) if you notice a rule being broken. This will notify the moderators of that particular post, please provide a reason for notification.
Guidelines for discussion:
Debate vs. Discussion
There is a not-so-subtle difference between "debate" and "discussion" that is important to understand when both parts hold opposing views: debate is a competition; discussion is a collaboration. The later of which is preferred here.
The goal of a debate is to win. Successful debate strategies include making your case with credible sources and destroying the case of your opponents, using their words against themselves.
The goal of a discussion is to understand. In a discussion, both parties must be careful to remain on the "same side of the table." Always let the other side know that maintaining the highest level of respect in your ideas is more important than being "right." The goal is simply to understand the other person's point-of-view. Sometimes we confuse "understand" with "agree with." It is not always necessary to agree on an issue. Agreeing to disagree - letting the other enjoy his/her opinion - can be as satisfying or more satisfying than changing the other person's mind.
...
I find I must take issue with the TWO bolded rules because
(a) right or wrong it is our duty to express heartfelt objection to wrong seeming statements, since statements can sway others badly.
This fundamental aspect of communication is not so subtle as it seems. it is part of healthy corrective forum conduct.
It would be expected at any table of talmudic scholars or in a thriving sangha.
especially in this (shroomery) ocean of uncertainty, where known psychonauts are testing their conjectures of what that last cosmic experience was about.
especially here, the challenge to emotional commitment must exist, a sense of honest uncertainty goes farther.
a soap box with no hecklers quickly becomes a monument of error.
(b) rushing to call the guards is more for the princess mentality than for the mentality of seekers of truth, light, meaning, and magic.
Having immersed in things mystical for decades, I caution proceedings with the above premises, as they are prone to stray into lonely dreams rather than magical intimacy with life.
with the above rules as they now stand I think this forum is wrongly named.
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 fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,188
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4781317 - 10/10/05 10:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I find I must take issue with the TWO bolded rules because
(a) right or wrong it is our duty to express heartfelt objection to wrong seeming statements, since statements can sway others badly.
This fundamental aspect of communication is not so subtle as it seems. it is part of healthy corrective forum conduct.
It would be expected at any table of talmudic scholars or in a thriving sangha.
especially in this (shroomery) ocean of uncertainty, where known psychonauts are testing their conjectures of what that last cosmic experience was about.
especially here, the challenge to emotional commitment must exist, a sense of honest uncertainty goes farther.
a soap box with no hecklers quickly becomes a monument of error.
(b) rushing to call the guards is more for the princess mentality than for the mentality of seekers of truth, light, meaning, and magic.
Having immersed in things mystical for decades, I caution proceedings with the above premises, as they are prone to stray into lonely dreams rather than magical intimacy with life.
with the above rules as they now stand I think this forum is wrongly named.
I think you are right, and that which you have pointed out is suggestive of the fact that certain people's concept of spirituality is off.  They think that spirituality goes hand-in-hand with not having beliefs challenged.  
 
Peace. 
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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absolute zero
The Hero
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4781572 - 10/10/05 11:39 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe there would be another, better means to the same end? I mean, basically, it seems like the intent is to have the right to express views without being bashed for them, and I'm cool with that.
If you have a debate regarding a religious topic, you don't want an atheist like me to come in and question the basis of your religious beliefs, you want the debate/discussion to revolve around the topic that you presented, working under the assumption that the person already has the same fundamental religious beliefs.
I think it might be a mistake to put such a restriction into place...
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4781645 - 10/10/05 11:57 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I completely agree. I'm not sure how I feel about an entirely new board for Spirituality, but that's irrelevant to the fact that having a rule that requires someone to either agree with someone or not speak at all is too oppressive.
If someone doesn't want their beliefs challenged, they could write a disclaimer saying so.
Otherwise, I think it's important to be able to discuss beliefs and opinions. Since this is the Spirituality board, it follows that all posters will have some basic principals on which they agree, but there are many details and such that are up for debate. To not allow such debate IMO would be a huge mistake.
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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4781647 - 10/10/05 11:57 AM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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red, then we have to question, how the fellow shroomerite has come to his conclusions of belief until we understand (not believe ourselves) 
At least, that is how I understood the rules.
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nonick
Stranger
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4781669 - 10/10/05 12:05 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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"They think that spirituality goes hand-in-hand with not having beliefs challenged."
spot on, fireworks god!
us mushroom people should be able to see right through the veil of not having beleifs challenged. its like the whole gallelio thing, you know? challenge the church and burn!
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: nonick]
#4781736 - 10/10/05 12:23 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
us mushroom people should be able to see right through the veil of not having beleifs challenged. its like the whole gallelio thing, you know? challenge the church and burn!
People certainly have a right to think that which they wish to think, naturally, but the point of discussion is to interact with others in order for all concerned to benefit in some form or another. It usually involves reaching a common understanding, or to arrive at a same truth, correct?
Anyone truly interested in the thoughts and ideas they are attempting to convey to others in order to relate with one another about one's experience of life in this reality (thus, anyone truly interested in truly engaging themselves in life and knowing reality and realizing the spirit within it and everything, the entire process) would openly encourage free discussion with everyone else, regardless of what opinion they themselves hold or even what they express, as long as it is related to the discussion on hand, so that they would be able to expand their perspective and understanding (true aspects of spirituality, of course) and to have more experience and thoughts with which to build their model of life and reality and their experience.
The problem is that there certainly isn't a majority of capable, energetic people truly interested in living their life and exploring the captivating, engaging experience of a vast reality and all that concerns it, including a phenemoneon just as vast - themselves. You can't hide from reality, it is everything.
True spirituality involves all of this.  
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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nonick
Stranger
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: fireworks_god]
#4782007 - 10/10/05 01:13 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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"The problem is that there certainly isn't a majority of capable, energetic people truly interested in living their life and exploring the captivating, engaging experience of a vast reality and all that concerns it, including a phenemoneon just as vast - themselves. You can't hide from reality, it is everything. "
definitely a good point. most people have never reached the final stages of psychological development. (if you want, you can think of it in the terms Piaget has said it in. although i dont think hes completely accurate, he didn't have a bad rough outline of it all)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: fireworks_god]
#4782024 - 10/10/05 01:18 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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The proof is in the pudding.
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CaptainExtra
Captain Obvious'ev0l twin
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 159
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: fireworks_god]
#4782025 - 10/10/05 01:18 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Oh leave the forum alone fer chrissakes. I wanna see all of the wanna-be Charles Mansons, and other messiahs and Gurus that will inevitably arise in here!! 
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,937
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: CaptainExtra]
#4782150 - 10/10/05 01:45 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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this should be called the linus blankey forum,
and I vote for swami as moderator,
providing he keeps speaking in emoticons like this   
I am amazed at the utter pretention to call this quilted bedspread of agreeability a spiritual forum - naughty, naughty grasshoppers pretending to be abbots;
somehow, when this was combined with philosophy the two pretentions mutually balanced out nicely. now where can you go???
where is chenreze to dance?
he surely won't come to philosophy, and he is too bacchanal and enraged to have a voice here, where much which must be challenged will grow like weeds in a lazy minded garden.
there are going to be some rocky mushroom landings coming this way, and not having the balanced environment to come out with it - laugh and get on with life can be irresponsible.
Instead what is being created now is a harvesting forum for fanatics to capture softened mushroomers on their return from a richer dreamier place.
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~~~~~
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,257
Loc: non-local
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4782156 - 10/10/05 01:46 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that #3 [Questioning others beliefs is not allowed] should and will be broadened over time. There should be some room to question within certain bounds, but the thread starter should also have space to express and expand upon his beliefs without fending off constant attacks from intellectual bullies who delight in drinking many cups of coffee and staying up 24-7 to harass others.
A balance needs to be struck. That balance will be discovered over time if we have good mods and users, and I think we do.
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I think the worst time to have a heart attack is during a game of charades...or a game of fake heart attack. -Demetri Martin
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Booby
Agent Mulder
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4782174 - 10/10/05 01:49 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Aren't these philosophical musings? and as such more suited to the Philosphy forum?
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Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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CaptainExtra
Captain Obvious'ev0l twin
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 159
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: Booby]
#4782187 - 10/10/05 01:53 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Booby said:
Aren't these philosophical musings? and as such more suited to the Philosphy forum?
No, because the voices told them so.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,937
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: Booby]
#4782212 - 10/10/05 01:58 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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these comments are about morality, and existential tension
the crossing point of spirituality and philosophy
that is the soft spot that needs to be cultivated
instead of fragmentation isolation and coddling.
besides people in the philosophy forum have now gone bonkers without the real challenges of souls adrift in suffering and seeking enlightenment...
This separation is an unfortunate cosmetic surgery - like very southern california.
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: Booby]
#4782217 - 10/10/05 01:58 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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everything is philosophy
this is the most absurd drama I've seen...
(for some reason the 17th century witch hunts come to mind here)
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CaptainExtra
Captain Obvious'ev0l twin
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 159
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4782225 - 10/10/05 02:01 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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The internet forum is a different creature indeed than most other forums of expression. Perhaps in such an anonymous environment, higher standards of organization must be implemented in order to achieve usefulness.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4782238 - 10/10/05 02:04 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am amazed at the utter pretention to call this quilted bedspread of agreeability a spiritual forum - naughty, naughty grasshoppers pretending to be abbots;
somehow, when this was combined with philosophy the two pretentions mutually balanced out nicely. now where can you go???
where is chenreze to dance?
he surely won't come to philosophy, and he is too bacchanal and enraged to have a voice here, where much which must be challenged will grow like weeds in a lazy minded garden.
there are going to be some rocky mushroom landings coming this way, and not having the balanced environment to come out with it - laugh and get on with life can be irresponsible.
Instead what is being created now is a harvesting forum for fanatics to capture softened mushroomers on their return from a richer dreamier place.
You get an A+ for your whimsical prose. Go to the head of the class.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: redgreenvines]
#4782642 - 10/10/05 03:31 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
instead of fragmentation isolation and coddling.
I'm really looking forward to unmitigated flights of fancy.
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,937
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Re: questioning premises or fake spirituality - this is important. [Re: Booby]
#4782662 - 10/10/05 03:34 PM (7 years, 7 months ago) |
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you will see junk
it takes strong opposition to create a good flight
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~~~~~
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