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Rationality and Agnostics

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dr0mni said:
"What is the difference between the P forum and the S forum?"

i don't see why everyone is having such a hard time with this...

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For the same reason people are given a hard time in S&P. When people don't "want" to understand something they are put resistance up against because it is new or different making it a scary threat to the reptilian brain.

Cervantes,

You want to understand better what is going on, what people see you don't?

How much time and energy have you put into discussing/debating this proposed topic of a split and even still, in your personal opinion, you see no good reason for why S&P just can't stay S&P or why it is a problem that people want to split it up.

For you, all of the discussion got you nowhere and if you were in charge, even after all of the discussion, you would put us right back where we started if it was your choice to make.

When some people come to discuss/debate something, they like to go somewhere new from where it started. They like to see the landscape change along the way and be in a new and better place for having grown through that experience.

If you just spin in a circle, expending a lot of energy, and get no where, it becomes un productive expending all of that energy for nothing.

That's how many people feel when they come here.

For a boat to move forward, you need to be evenly rowing with TWO oars- using the left and right brain hemispheres.

There are people who only use the left oar and spin in repeat circles in life and when they see someone paddling with a right oar, they reach out to grab it away from them, only, instead of using it, they sink it.

Conflict ensues when people are trying to get somewhere and instead of using their own left and right oar, they go to take someone elses and there is a power struggle over it.

If everyone always came here with full use of the two brain hemispheres, there would be no conflict that results in drama, flame wars, power struggles and people spinning in circles getting no where.

FYI guys, the right brain hemisphere has qualities considered feminine like -intuition-ESP, imaginative/dream states, creativity, etc. All of you men have it weather you like it or not or want it or not. Some males are not afraid to use it.  Why do they get criticized here for it? They are the progressive ones.

The real underlying conflict is the wound of the split between masculine and feminine energy, left and right brain hemispheres.

S&P is dominated by males and male energy yet some males may be more dominate on the right side or just in better use of both sides and that conflicts with those mostly using only the left side.

I think some people are calling out for a forum, that caters to respecting the use of the right side of the brain.

Taking a new forum to right side only isn't going to solve anything either.

Look at how shroomism mentioned pleasant discussion, and it was said, that discussions where everyone agrees are boring. They are not if you are asking questions to learn more and gain a greater understanding of other people and how they view and get through life.

Not allowing for  the asking of questions in the new forum, will make it boring and like a blog.

There are spirituality forums that live in peace and many questions are asked. The only difference is, people only bother to ask them if they want to gain new information and understanding. They don't ask them, so they can get more information to rip to shreds.  If people disagree with what they hear, they handle it differently.

They say, "Thats interesting and here's one way I see it. POVs are put on the table and people pull from them what they like, what may serve them on the journey in life.

If you don't agree, you don't agree. Why not just respect that difference and move on. If someone says, I have this idea, what do you think, then people should be able to give their opinions without the poster jumping down their neck for the ones they don't like. Don't ask for them if you don't want them.

I think it requires the intuitive side to be able to handle a pleasant discussion that is interesting and it highly involves the asking of questions with an intent to gain new information, not to trash it.

Cervantes, this is an example of the stupid shit that goes on in here;

A; I got the idea to paint my walls purple. I like it better that way. The hue makes me feel really good. Better then the old white did. What color walls do you guys have and how do you like them?

B- Mine are white and I personally like them best. I tried purple before and it didn't do it for me.

C- Mine are blue, but I am ready for a change, Maybe I'll try white or purple, why do you guys like those two colors better?

So far so good and normal. Then this shit happens

Enter poster D-

WTF are you guys talking about? To think wall color has any effect on you is totally irrational. You guys are making this shit up. Where is the proof wall color has an effect on how you feel?

Then, either an argument ensues OR people stop sharing in that post because, they do not want to be criticized for believing that wall color effects your mood and they have no proof to back it up OTHER then, their own experience.

I think the many people who want the split or just a new forum, want conversations that go down like the example without "poster D mentality" coming in to the mix.

Personal philosophies can be discussed in a mystical forum and spirituality can be discussed in a philosophy forum. No one said they can't be or won't be or shouldn't be.

What those looking for a new forum want, is a place where poster D mentality doesn't keep coming in challenging stuff like experiential beliefs that can't be proved and may be irrational, but none the less , how it is for some people and they like it.

But within that, as I demonstrated in the mock post, you have to be able to disagree and ask questions for it to remain interesting and go somewhere.

The only difference is, the questions and disagreements are all based on the premise belief that wall color does effect your mood. What is being discussed is the differing experiences with it.

If you can't relate to that experience, why bother jumping in and saying you can't. It offers NOTHING to the conversation. Ignore that post and move on.

It's too simple.

I think people who can not see that line or know not to cross it are not using their intuition. Left brain only people don't feel or do not consider the feeling aspect of being human or the feelings of others and therefore have problems feeling for where those lines are and respecting the feelings of others.

Keep this the same, create a new forum and put a disclaimer on it that says "Engage PULSE and right brain hemisphere before entering"

Live

reverse it and get

evil

The heaven and hell analogies were awesome!

Philosophical reductionists want to cut the life out of everything down to nothing, resulting in death to all that crosses its path, and that is how hell is created. As far as I am concerned, they are already dead and just looking to steal energy from others to feel alive for the moment.

I support heaven and hell forums too, only problem is, the keepers of hell won't have energy to steal unless they can keep the life force of heaven within reach. I think thats why the idea of a split is putting those types into a total panic.

Ask yourselves WHY Philosophers who don't believe in the eternal life of spirit and the spirit realms want to keep spirituality alive in a philosophy and rationalism forum?

They should have no interest in it, yet they want it there, because there is life in there, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I don't mean to be mean or critical of them. I wish I could help them source from the eternal life within so they can get out of hell and stop siphoning energy off others to feel alive.

I do understand that some people want to practice spiritual strengthening by exposing themselves to the siphons to find where their leaks are.

Some people want to stop being the kitchen that keeps feeding them. They will never learn how to cook up their own food if they keep getting fed. Some people want to go to a party where Everyone is cooking up their own food and sharing recipes for the other cooks try out.

How can they share recipes for cooking up the best OBE when people tell them, OBE's are bullshit and demand proof? Whatever one brings to the table as experiential proof, the demander will just gobble it up and then, say, "See, nothing is there. OBE's are Bullshit!" So the person keeps putting more on the table, the demander keeps getting fed. The poster gets tired and drained for trying in a fruitless effort and the demander still calls BS, nothing is there and of course it's no longer there if they keep gobbling it up leaving empty plates.

And S&P reads like a broken record that goes no where new.

Just like in life, we like a change of scenery and to go to new places. So what if new York City was made up with innovative imaginative minds. It's a place we can visit. It can be torn down to rubble, no shit, and no longer exist. Easy to destroy the new places people build and then say, they don't exist.

Just like in real life, new York City is there and thriving. It's real for those who are there experiencing it.

To say it doesn't exist just because you haven't been there doesn't mean it doesn't . It just means, you haven't been there. To go as obnoxiously far as to destroy the city to make it no longer exist just so you can be right, is the pathetic shit people are tired of around here.

If "something" doesn't change soon, the dead siphoners and destroyers will push all of the cooks and builders out of this forum and the Shroomery will be left with Hell here in this forum.

There are rules in play to keep people from siphoning and destroying.

The respect others beliefs rule.

It's easy to find loopholes and siphon and destroy and not "technically" break them.

That is why it's not working Cervantes.

Chances are, with the a new forum that prohibits siphoning and destruction, it will have it's rules pushed and tested by people looking for loopholes.

Whoever mods it has to nip all of the shit in the bud with a bias for the forum intention, not members. They can't let some slide for a while, give the message it's okay to do it while they set the example for others to do it, and then, when it starts getting really bad, ban the most visible offender.

He'll whine he is being singled out, others are doing it, no fair, you have a personal agenda against me, while the problem just got shifted over to the new forum all over again.

If there is a philosophical reductionist forum to ship them too instead of banning them, it may give more options for ease of dealing with this problem that flares up now and again then what is available now.


You asked for suggestions on how to better direct newbies.

If forum allows for aggressive rip your head off debate, I don't think it is wise, to put the word spirituality on the forum, header. Most newbies with a bend towards spirituality are familiar with forums where people don't go for the jugular and suck away.

They we will innocently and unkowingly wander in like Doe into a lions cage and get clobbered and start whining or fighting back and thats what the debators are sick and tired of. The philosophical debators here don't want to be coddeling  sensitives. There fore, all you need to do is quit inviting sensitives ino the philosophy with a forum header like "spirituality."

Otherwise, the sensitives will have the same old argument that "this is the spirituality forum too."

Whatever, the admins will do what they do. I mostly wrote this to give more insight from different perspectives for people who just are not understanding the problems here. I could give more argument to support the debators, however, if they havn't noticed, we already are showwing support for you guys by wanting for you to have a debate only forum, no sensitives allowed to be sensitive in it.

That is how we are showing our support and consideration for your wants and needs. We just want another place where respect for experiential beleifs will be allowed to flourish, without being asked to prove things we can't beyond having had the experiences themselves.

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Paradigm said:
I've been thinking about it, and I was picturing what kind of posts I would make in the S&M forum.  I think I would make threads about meditation techniques, different theologies, and personal spiritual experiences.  In the P&R forum, I would discuss things like free will, ethics, the implications of science, etc.

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See there you go!

I was thinking about making a post in P&R about interpretation of reality and data in order to infer absolutes. And in S&M I could make a thread about recent dreams, meditation experiances, etc...

I think the biggest issue is what to call the forums, and how to organize them (subforums or not)...

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Cervantes said:
One of these days jiggy, one of these days you will post a YES or NO answer.

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Maaaaaybe

I liked how you reasoned it through for yourself paradigm.
He showed how easy it is to do

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Wiccan_Seeker said:
Yes, Split S&P into "Spirituality & Mysticism" and "Philosophy & Rationalism".


I'm all for trying the split and looking what will be the net result of this. 90 days may be a bit short for the two forums to develop their own vibe, but we'll cross that bridge when we find it.

MAIN FORUM -- The Transcendent Experience
SUBFORUM -- Spirituality & Mysticism
SUBFORUM -- Philosophy & Rationalism

I see a potential for a moderator/poster void forming by introducing TWO new forums but I think The Transcendent Experience will be a good addition to The Psychedelic Experience and hopefully fill the void the current S&P cannot.

I'm all for it

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Deepman said:

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Wiccan_Seeker said:
Yes, Split S&P into "Spirituality & Mysticism" and "Philosophy & Rationalism".


I'm all for trying the split and looking what will be the net result of this. 90 days may be a bit short for the two forums to develop their own vibe, but we'll cross that bridge when we find it.

MAIN FORUM -- The Transcendent Experience
SUBFORUM -- Spirituality & Mysticism
SUBFORUM -- Philosophy & Rationalism

I see a potential for a moderator/poster void forming by introducing TWO new forums but I think The Transcendent Experience will be a good addition to The Psychedelic Experience and hopefully fill the void the current S&P cannot.

I'm all for it

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What they said.

I haven't put THAT into words but I have thought it several times.

I too hope the NEW S&P is a Forum which could stand beside The PE.

I'd love a MAIN Forum (for ALL the PAST [and NORMAL] S&P posts) and TWO subforums for BOTH Sides, who apparently can't play well with others.

Sometimes a thread will just take a sudden turn, and better fit inside a subforum. Notify a mod, and it will be moved... many threads, discussions and feelings will be saved.

It'd make the Mod's job a LOT easier, and the Forum would accommodate MORE types than the current S&P... allowing for instant growth!

Most important, we WOULDN'T segregate this WHOLE S&P community.

Just 'cause it wasn't an option on the vote, doesn't make it a BAD opition... unfortunately, I've heard things from The Staff, which lead me to believe, this option is being passed over... 

I hope it gets another look.

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Paradigm said:
I've been thinking about it, and I was picturing what kind of posts I would make in the S&M forum. I think I would make threads about meditation techniques, different theologies, and personal spiritual experiences. In the P&R forum, I would discuss things like free will, ethics, the implications of science, etc.

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Cervantes said:
I'm curious as to what you'd think about a S&P hub forum, and P&R and S&M as subforums..

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where do i go?

Depends. The key criteria in determining where you will go is whether you want formal debate or sharing and supporting.

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Philosophy and Rationalism
Spirituality and Mysticism

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what if i'm looking to debate my spiritual, post-rationalist beliefs?

humbug