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InvisibleLallafa
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Pure Capitalism
    #451831 - 11/08/01 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

would the US of A be a better place if we were a purely capitalist society?
would doing away with our "socialistic flavors" make the country more enjoyable to live in?
would it be the fair/ethical thing to do?
is socialism a bad thing?


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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #451842 - 11/08/01 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Better? I don't know what that means. Everything will work itself out though


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Offlinemm.
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #451858 - 11/08/01 05:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No. You would have complete de-regualtion of business, no employment laws, merger commisions etc.. Hell they could pay people in food and lodging only and have riot police to supress any dissent. The only thing that mattered would be maximising profits.... capitalism is based on competition. We could be the only sentient life-forms in the universe and we have a system of society that strongly encourages us to compete against each other. It lets us become enslaved to basic insticts of survival that are entirely inappropriate now that we have reached this level. Surely a society that encourages cooperation and facilitates expression of our higher powers of thought is what we should be working towards, and no, state socialism is as bad as capitalism.


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Edited by mm. (11/08/01 05:38 PM)


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: mm.]
    #452018 - 11/08/01 08:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

mm.
"society that strongly encourages us to compete against each other"
i agree.
i need to get some irc folk on this thread.
they have some good points too, although i disagree with them....


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #452579 - 11/09/01 08:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oh God ...not another "is capitalism terrible" thread..how many people on this site actually own a company...walk a mile people


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #452709 - 11/09/01 12:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Innvertigo, why dont you read the question.
im not asking "is capitalism terrible"
i am asking if hints of socialism are terrible.
i know capitalism works.
i am asking if people think PURE capitalism would be better.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #452849 - 11/09/01 02:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

then yes pure capitalism would be better. Socialism catters to the lowest person and penalizes the "real workers"


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #452941 - 11/09/01 03:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so we should do away with progams such as welfare and health care, correct?

if a child is born with a cureable disease, yet has no money to pay for treatment, should the child die?
when there are people like Bill Gates walking around?

its his money, he earned it, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it, correct?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #452950 - 11/09/01 03:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

are you trying to bait me?........i'll bite....

****if a child is born with a cureable disease, yet has no money to pay for treatment, should the child die?****

No the child shouldn't die.......just because there is pure capitalism it doesn't mean that these needs will be eliminated. Insurance can be privatized along with hospitals, medical centers etc. You'd be amazed how cheap surguries would be if there were competition and how affordable medicine would be if they had to compete.

Capitaliismn does not equal screw the little guy. The little guy is what keeps Capitalism going...look at the tabacoo companies.....

****when there are people like Bill Gates walking around? ****

Bill Gates earned his money and owes noone...except the government (that's another topic)

****its his money, he earned it, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it, correct? ****

correct..


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Innvertigo]
    #452976 - 11/09/01 03:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"are you trying to bait me?"
no.
honestly i am just curious about this.
some people told me recently that a purely capitalistic socity would be fair, and that it would operate smoother than our current system.
i was always under the impression that a little socialism is a good thing as long as it doesnt move toward communism.

and let me rephrase my question:
-if a child is born with a cureable disease, yet has no money to pay for treatment, and has no insurance, should the child die?

"Capitaliismn does not equal screw the little guy."
what?
"The little guy is what keeps Capitalism going"
yes, i agree
"...look at the tabacoo companies"
how is the little guy not getting screwed in the tobacco industry?


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #453016 - 11/09/01 04:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The child should become the property of the hospital, treated, and sold to the highest bidder.

If the parents could not provide insurance for the child, they are living in violation of the child's right to life. There will be no punishment, but all claims to any money or to the actual parenting of the child will be denied.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #453024 - 11/09/01 04:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The biggest problem with that thing is MONOPOLISM. Monopolism enables things wich are not good.
So I say, pure capitalism is not good.

The society I wish I lived is the one wich enables to every single individuum to becamo womething if the person wishes is it. but not to sell the soul to the "devil". I do not feel it is a right moment to discuss more thouroughly about it. So maybe next time, or find the thread old a year or more about monopoly.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #453032 - 11/09/01 04:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

pure communism could be a good thing if it was possible. But that thing is not based on human model, but of a higher beings.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #453040 - 11/09/01 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"The child should become the property of the hospital, treated, and sold to the highest bidder."
thats fair?

i agree 100% with every thing crobih just said.
pure capitalism would not be a good thing.
and i know its impossible to really get pure commumism or capitalism.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Crobih]
    #453049 - 11/09/01 04:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"pure communism could be a good thing if it was possible. But that thing is not based on human model, but of a higher beings."
very true. thats why im not a communist.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #453494 - 11/10/01 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ok invertigo now im trying to bait you

"Capitaliismn does not equal screw the little guy."
what?
"The little guy is what keeps Capitalism going"
yes, i agree
"...look at the tabacoo companies"
how is the little guy not getting screwed in the tobacco industry? this is the one i would most like explained.




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InvisibleSteppin_Razor
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Tobacco companies [Re: Lallafa]
    #454809 - 11/11/01 11:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Let's reverse that... how is the little guy getting screwed by the tobacco companies?

The tobacco companies have no power to force anyone to buy their product. It has been known for about forty years and widely advertised that smoking tobacco is potentially deadly. It has been thirty years since cigarette ads were banned on TV and radio, not much less than that since they were banned in print media.

Legislation against smoking in public places, hundreds of millions of dollars spent by the government on anti-smoking campaigns, class-action lawsuits against tobacco companies, etc. Seems to me that the tobacco companies are the ones at a disadvantage here, NOT the little guy.

The little guy has several options. Don't start smoking, reduce smoking, switch to lighter cigarettes, switch to smokeless tobacco, quit tobacco altogether. The tobacco companies have no way to prevent anyone from exercising any of those choices.

And tobacco companies have nothing to do with whether life in America would be better under pure capitalism.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Tobacco companies [Re: Steppin_Razor]
    #454864 - 11/11/01 12:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The problem is that in physical world things are not perfect. Big companies can use those not perfect things to fucks up all other compeition. It all leads to centralisation of the power and money to small % of the CHOOSEN ones. Not those who deserve to b the ones.

Thats just MHO.


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OfflinePhredM
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The myth of monopolies [Re: Crobih]
    #455213 - 11/11/01 07:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Crobih writes:

"The biggest problem with that thing is MONOPOLISM. Monopolism enables things wich are not good.
So I say, pure capitalism is not good."

Sigh. Every Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Statist of whatever flavor -- sooner or later trots out this ridiculous statement.

Anyone who THINKS about it for longer than five minutes rather than simply parroting Statist slogans can figure out for themselves that it is impossible for a monopoly to exist without government intervention. Since under pure Capitalism (which is what we are discussing here, NOT the quasi-socialist welfare state in place in all Western countries today) the government has no control over the economy whatsoever, monopolies are not possible.

If in a Capitalist society I start a company making... ummm... toothpicks, for example, and I cannot meet demand, or am overpriced, or don't have a big enough selection, or sell shoddy toothpicks, then sooner or later someone else will decide to start producing and selling toothpicks. The government will not stop him from doing so. NO ONE will stop him from doing so.

If I feel that the new toothpick producer is hurting my business, I can't hire a lobbyist to persuade the government to give me a subsidy, or to legislate my competitor out of business. All I can do is try to hold on to my existing client base. If I am incompetent, sooner or later I will start seeing reduced profits, and I may even decide to get out of the toothpick business altogether. Too bad for me.

At this point, there is only one toothpick manufacturer left... my competitor. Does he hold a monopoly? Yes... for the moment. But the instant he decides to take advantage of the situation by cutting quality or bumping prices, or both, someone else will smell an opportunity, and jump into the toothpick market. End of monopoly.

It is theoretically possible that my competitor turns out to be such an insanely great toothpick-maker that no one else wants to get into the toothpick business... they all figure he is just too damn good at what he does to make it worthwhile risking time and money trying to capture some of his market. If that happens... SO WHAT? Who is harmed? Certainly not the consumers of toothpicks.

If you say that the biggest problem with Capitalism is "monopolism", then there is no problem with Capitalism. Monopolies can only exist under Statism.

pinky




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OfflinePhredM
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Re: Pure Capitalism [Re: Lallafa]
    #455215 - 11/11/01 07:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Lallafa writes:

"would the US of A be a better place if we were a purely capitalist society?"

Yes.

"would doing away with our 'socialistic flavors' make the country more enjoyable to live in?"

Yes.

"would it be the fair/ethical thing to do?"

Yes.

"is socialism a bad thing?"

Yes.

pinky




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