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Arp said:
You can define moral anyhow you want.
Some belive it's wrong to eat meat, some belive it's wrong to
exploit children in development countries.
You support this system by being a consumer of anything and working
for that system.
You don't have to go to the zoo to be immoral you can just by
a news-paper or do some labour. It is the same system that allow
the existance of zoo:s and all these things.

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Doom said:oh lord, is there a full moon out tonight?

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Doesnt it make perfect sense?

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Arp said:

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Doom said:oh lord, is there a full moon out tonight?

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Doesnt it make perfect sense?

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Arp said:

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Doom said:oh lord, is there a full moon out tonight?

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Doesnt it make perfect sense?

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Gomp said:
They should have a stall for humans.. display some gymnastics or something.. :P

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lol  gymnastics, that would be a sight 

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Arp said:
You can define moral anyhow you want.

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Diploid said:
How about aquariums where wild animals, like dolphin, are snatched from a billion cubic meter ocean and plopped into a tank of water for the rest of their lives.

In the ocean, they emit fantastically powerful bursts of ultrasound, both to play and to hunt. In the tanks, the first time they try this, the deafening echo quickly forces them into submission.

How about home aquariums, particularly salt water where the fish often come from countries where they're collected by dynamite stunning where most of the nearby fish and coral die and the few that survive the impact get sold in US aquarium shops. Or the alternative technique where the fish are stunned with cyanide also to the detriment of hapless nearby fish and coral.

And when their owners get tired of the expense and trouble of maintaining an aquarium, they dump the fish in the ocean where exotic species are currently decimating entire populations just outside my door on the reefs of Fort Lauderdale and around the world.

Or the cage-bound tropical parrots people keep as pets, never letting them so much as spread their wings for lack of room in the cage; many of these birds are captured wild in the jungles south America, stuffed in suitcases, and smuggled into the US. Naturally, large fractions of them die before they make it to their new prison in some selfish person's home.

All this, why? Because people, Americans especially, are too fucking lazy to go scuba diving to see the wonderful world around them, or take a vacation to Costa Rica rather than Disney World because they might have to venture off the pavement.

This is the same mentality that puts gigantic RVs in Yosemite and Everglades National Parks where people should be hiking instead.

Don't even get me started on this topic... grrrr!

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Gomp said:
They should have a stall for humans.. display some gymnastics or something.. :P

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OldWoodSpecter said:

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Arp said:
You can define moral anyhow you want.

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where were you when I was trying to convince people of shroomery that morality is subjective? Now you show up when I'm duscussing on the other side

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They are probably aware of that, they just don't want to promote it cause it could mean that certain people start making certain acts that works against other peoples enlightment? Like kicking them in the back when trying to meditate outside

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gettinjiggywithit said:

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Gomp said:
They should have a stall for humans.. display some gymnastics or something.. :P

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That was funny gomp. Maybe it would make people think in new ways if they had a human cage on the way out.

I don't know if the word "moral" applies to wanting for animals to have their natural freedom versus being caged up for our enjoyment.

Doesn't it have more to do with just plain ole compassion and fellow feeling, the ability to relate to another conscious living thing?

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OldWoodSpecter said:
There is another interesting question about zoos. We and animals are separated by walls and cage bars, but who is the one who is traped, us or them?

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Arp said:
Maybe you don't but others, and these morals keeping them from
doing so keeps them in control?

If you don't feel compassions & care, but still go according to
the script of moral your society has given you then it can be
preventive in terms of harming someone?

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That is what morality is about, a system that tries to prevent hurting the well being and dignity of humans and nature

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Everyone turn your attention to the left side of the tank and observe KooKoo the dolphin perform an amazing double-backflip behavior.

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Everyone turn your attention to the left cage where we have six nerds playing Dungeons & Dragons. As you see our zoo cares for providing a natural enviroment

Really, we all oppose to classical zoos. An equally intriguing question would be how humans would be represented in a zoo cage.

If a cage of humans was kept in the same way as a cage of animals (lets keep guantanamo bay out of this) then people would change their minds about their zoo visit as they see neurotic and otherwise disturbed people pacing through their cage while children throw peanuts at them

You get to see how a real lion looks, but you will only see how a disturbed lion acts. There have been experiments with habitat-like zoos but the animals hid for the visitors so they took the trees and bushes away. I think that successfully demonstrated that
a) animals don't like the zoo enviroment
b) zoos don't care as much for the wellbeing of the animals as for their visibilty.

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Diploid said:
How about aquariums where wild animals, like dolphin, are snatched from a billion cubic meter ocean and plopped into a tank of water for the rest of their lives.

In the ocean, they emit fantastically powerful bursts of ultrasound, both to play and to hunt. In the tanks, the first time they try this, the deafening echo quickly forces them into submission.

How about home aquariums, particularly salt water where the fish often come from countries where they're collected by dynamite stunning where most of the nearby fish and coral die. The few that survive the impact get sold in US aquarium shops. Or the alternative technique where the fish are stunned with cyanide also to the detriment of hapless nearby fish and coral.

And when their owners get tired of the expense and trouble of maintaining an aquarium, they dump the fish in the ocean where exotic species are currently decimating entire populations just outside my door on the reefs of Fort Lauderdale and around the world.

Or the cage-bound tropical parrots people keep as pets, never letting them so much as spread their wings for lack of room in the cage; many of these birds are captured wild in the jungles south America, stuffed in suitcases, and smuggled into the US. Naturally, large fractions of them die before they make it to their new prison in some selfish person's home.

All this, why? Because people, Americans especially, are too fucking lazy to go scuba diving to see the wonderful world around them, or take a vacation to Costa Rica rather than Disney World because they might have to venture off the pavement.

This is the same mentality that puts gigantic RVs in Yosemite and Everglades National Parks where people should be hiking instead.

Don't even get me started on this topic... grrrr!

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BTW do you have a source for the info about dynamite?

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Diploid said:
yes, and many of these institutions/zoos give heaps of money to organizations like http://www.sarasotadolphin.org/default.asp who dedicate them selves to dolphin conservation.

Take a look at their personnel list. That organization's goals are, in order of priority, to pay the salaries of their directors and staff, next to provide a springboard for their students' and interns' careers, and finally, to study dolphin at the expense of imprisoned animals around the world as evidenced by their contributor list which includes:

Disney Wildlife Conservation Fund
Indianapolis Zoo
Disney's Animal Programs
Disney's EPCOT-The Living Seas Mote Scientific Foundation
The John G. Shedd Aquarium
Surfview Beach Resort
Cannons Marina
Dolphin Quest

The only reason organization like Disney and company donate is so they can proudly list that they're an "Official Supporter of the Sarasota Dolphin Research Institute" on their sales propaganda.

and what have you done for the dolphins? hmmmm?

As a diving instructor, I donate much of my time and money to the cause of educating the public to these issues; issues about which people have been so duped that opinions such as yours have become predominant.

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