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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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1. The Dicitonary Definition of POLYPLOIDY pol?y?ploid Audio pronunciation of "polyploidy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pl-ploid) adj. Having one or more extra sets of chromosomes: a polyploid species; a polyploid cell. 2. The simple result of following the document A more fancy title would have been "Create a species of your own,well,kind of!". You think that your anandenanthera plants are special? What about your salvia? Well there are indeed special but if one is up for experimentation here is a very interesting idea. Polyploidy: In other words increase twofold the genome of your plants! This could lead to higher alkaloid production from what i gather so far...As well as making the plant exhibit a "multiplied" (read bigger) phenotype in all its traits! The methods giver are mainly for seeds..What about plants that set not-tha-viable seeds (Read :Psychotria Viridis) or plants that never set seeds or if they do they are infertile? The method can be applied also to plantets grown on agar culture!!! Also a very good candidate to be tried on are Salvia Divinorum plantets: The reason salvia does rarely produces seeds and even more rarely produces FERTILE ones is that during the meiotic procees for making pollen and female oocytes some chromosomes cannot "pair up" and thus are not subjected to normal meiotic procedures.This happens because salvia divinorum is most propably a hybrid that its chromosomes bear little homology to one another.Maybe it would be a good idea to match up its chromosomes with some more,now lemme think where did i put my genetic automanipulator kit...Oooops,wrong century! We can suffice ourselves to doubling up the chromosomes and see what happens! Also ,if one uses plant culture methods on antheres of plants he can develop the haploid counterpart of the plant that then he can subject to methods inducing polyploidy so he can get a plant which is homozygotic to all its traits! Of course it goes without saying that this proccess is one for responsible adults that understant the term "safety" as well as simple instructions such as "wear your fucking gloves" Enjoy this passage i received today which explains the procces: Quote: -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants! Edited by Psiloman (12/25/05 07:15 AM)
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felixhigh Scientist Registered: 06/24/01 Posts: 7,565 Loc: Ly Last seen: 29 days, 8 hours |
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very interesting!!!
FH
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Now watch this ,its at least entertaining: Im going to attack myself!
"But colchicine is a TOXIC POISON!" Simple answer: Yes it is ,in the right dosage which happens to be low hence it is a poison. For the procedures mentioned it can be used safely by people who adhere on safety rules or by people who have OCD with a focus to hygiene! Compared to colchicine Surflan is safe (it is toxic in the right dosage though!) and it could be used as an alternative More in depth answers for those who like Real Answers: Colchicine and Surflan inhibit microtubule formation in the metaphase/anaphase of the mitotic and meiotic cell cycle.Surflan is more selective to plants ,hence it does not harm animal cells. Lets talk about the most toxic of the two: Colchicine is also a pharmaceutical drug taken orally! Check here: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generi So why is it "toxic" and "extremelly poisonous"? Because Homo Sapiens is known NOT to follow instructions and NOT to follow regulations.How many people have heard of the ills of Heroin and Opium abuse but choose to disregard them? How many people know of the dangers of driving inebriated but still do it? How many people actively seek ways to override perscription mechanisms in order to acquire pills with abuse/addictive potential and MANAGE to get addicted? See? We simply cant follow regulations! So if you think colchicine ,PLEASE FOLLOW THE FREAKING SAFETY REGULATIONS!!!!! I will stop here on this issue before it tends to be more of a "Philosophy ans Spirituality" thread. So one might say "Hey smart-ass ,im going to apply it on the plantets or seeds,if later on i eat the plant wont i suffer bad effects"? Ingenious question! Lets take the most toxic of the two colchicine (it doesnt even compare to toxicity with the other substance).Please bear with me :Lets say you use a 0.5% solution to treat your seeds which is 5mg colchicine per ml and that you use 1 ml of solution for 10 plantets of Datura Inoxia.Lets also assume that by the help of the little naughty gnomes when you sleep all 5mg of colchicine enter the only seed that sprouts and that you happen to plant in your garden.After some months your Datura plant has 10 leaves and you choose to smoke one.For insanity's continuation lets say that the colchicine in the plant did not get metabolised and by some wicked force that wants to harm you spreads evenly only on the leaves of the plant. Ok,where am i going at? Smoking that leaf and assuming that all its colchicine enters your body you will have just received 0.5mg of colchicine.Excuse me for saying so but i consider this ammount of colchicine safer than ingesting a mystery pill labeled as "MDMA" by a dealer. Now take into account that little gnomes that help 5mg of colchicine enter a single seed as you sleep DONT exist and you can figure the rest yourselves.Take also into account that Furlan is innocuous compared to colchicine and gives better results at tetraploidy experiments (hint hint!) So it all boils down to "Be Reasonable,Follow Safety procedures".If you can do that then you can experiment safely with polyploidy. If one wants more info on why to "mess with polyploidy" fire away and i will answer -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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pod3 Stranger Registered: 12/22/04 Posts: 362 Last seen: 17 years, 2 months |
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Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 11:17 AM)
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Polyploid by grafting? I lost you here...
Can you explain please? -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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Stonehenge Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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This idea has been around a long long time. From what I hear, it never lived up to it's potential. Pot growers were encouraged to try it going back 20 years or more. If it worked and was easy, don't you think commercial growers would be all over it? The stuff is poisonous and I don't recommend fooling with it. I've never heard of anyone getting good results from it.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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pod3 Stranger Registered: 12/22/04 Posts: 362 Last seen: 17 years, 2 months |
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Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 11:16 AM)
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Oh commercial growers are indeed all over it! Polyploid magnolias in the market are made using mostly Sulfran! Same holds truee for many brugmansia species and it has worked on tomatoes,maze and other plants! Simply most people dont bother with it,a pot grower would just buy skunk seeds and thats the end of the story.He plants them,gets his bud,sells it,smokes it and doesnt bother alot with it. Keep in mind though that Skunk variety IS POLYPLOID,arising either from natural polyploidy (very rare) or those colchicine experiments! Colchicine isnt that good of a choice,it effects animal cells as well as plant cells ,plus it has a lower rate of success and higher rate of lethal effects on seeds. Sulfran on the other hand: It works (for a fact),its medium difficult but it requires an adult.When i say adult i mean adult in brains not in age.Certainly i would not urge people to fool with it (No room for fools here sorry,thats why i wrote that huge essay attacking myself).I would urge though careful ,responsible,sane,uninebriated at the time of the procedure ADULTS to give it a go. If one of the shroomerites wants to try it i urge him to read thrice (3) my "attack on myself" until it sinks in Certainly its not for individuals that will "fool around" ,smoke after applying this chemical without washing hands,eating while applying the solution (!),having sex while applying the solution (!!) ,rubing their eyes ,nose mouth >> , trying to taste the solution,putting it in places where a sudden elbow move can spill it on the sofa and so on and so forth.... Pod3: Grafts are not considered Chimeras..A Chimera is a)either a plant that is made by joining two different species by method of PROTOPLAS FUSION or a "freak accident" of fertilisation that wasnt supposed to happen b)an organism having throughout its body mixed cells usually reffered to as a mosaic. Chimeras/mosaics are some lab rats that come from....4 parents! Well,its not the effect of a rat gangbang,byt the effect of putting together two blastomeres of zygotes that come from two different SETS of parents (Breed mouse A with mouse B,Breed mouse C with mouse D ,get a cell from each zygote,put it together and you receive a mouse whose cells will be a mixture of A and B recombination plus C and D recombination) Grafting a plant on another ,thus is not called a chimera and does not cause poliploidy.If the peyote you graft on a Trichocereus is diploid ,it will continue to be diploid no matter what! -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Oh ,and once more for those who failed to get it so far:
Between colchicine and Surflan choose Sulfran. Basic extra paranoid safety tips for Simple Minds: 1)Wear Gloves 2)Make them double! 3)Where disposable masks like the one dentists use! 4)Wash your hands after use! 5)Choose to work with solutions rather with straight Oryzaline powder.Powder can spread in the air the solution cant! 6) Keep your workbench always clear ,wipe thrice after each experiment 7)Store all your supplies in containers,solutions must be well sealed 8)Clearly label them as poisonous....You never know when your granny will be thirsty in the middle of the night 9)Any accidental spillage in your area should be cleaned thrice with ample water! 10) Any accidental spillage on you should be cleaned thrice with ample water 11)Any accidental spillage on politicians should not be cleaned,let it soak in.Respill if needed 12)Please : Dont eat it ,Dont Smoke it ,Dont Inject it,Dont Flirt it,Dont smell it ,DOnt play with it,Dont parade the chemicals in a room full of stoners,Dont brag about them to your girlfriend/boyfriend/pet just stick to the rules 13)It goes without saying that the area of the experiments SHOULD NOT BE THE KITCHEN! 14)Any glassware,equipment,spatulas ,forceps,razors,dildos used in the procedures should not be used for anything else but this procedure. Ok i have been clear,and quite humorous.If one cannnot follow these simple rules,is not of an adult mentality but tries the above method then certainly he will be a victim of natural selection.Sue Darwin. -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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Stonehenge Alt Center Registered: 06/20/04 Posts: 14,850 Loc: S.E. |
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This is similar to making mutations. The likelyhood of success is about as great, close to zero. Sure, it has worked and given useful varieties but nothing major in all the years it's been used. It's interesting to think about but using poisonous junk hoping for some miracle is not worthwhile, imho. What exactly are you guys thinking will happen? What is the most likely thing you expect and what do you think you have even a 1 in 1000 chance of achieving?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Quote: Note that many commercial plants with big fruits are a result of polyploidy even through breeding that went astray or by use of such agents.Sure, they miss the label "New and Improved,a polyploid product made by Microtubulin Inhibitors" but those products and trees are around us,nothing "novel" about it. This is quite dissimilar to making mutations using a mutagen and the succes rate is not close to zero if one performs the procedure as given... Lets have a closer look to it,to demystify it shall we? Maybe this will help us not imagine it being handled by geniuses in secret labs wearing full body protective suits! If one uses a mutagen (Such as DNA base analogs,Ethidium Bromide,acrylamide) etc one RANDOMLY MUTATES the DNA of a plant.Now ,the most "innocent " mutation could be a point mutation in the DNA,that is one base (Lets say Adenine) getting "transformed" to another ,Lets say cytosin.Now if this is in a protein coding region of the enzyme it could a)increase potency of the enzyme/protein b)decrease it c)do nothing at all....If the mutation is on a promoter or another binding sequence of the DNA the mutation might a)cause transcription enzymes/signaling molecules to bind with greater affinity b)destroy the affinity or reduce it so the gene following wont be expressed or c)have no effect at all...Now this was for point mutations,inversions etc etc.If one causes a mutation adding 2 bases 4 bases or so or a translocation of such an amount of bases (multiple of 2) the reading frame changes completely and ...well in layman's terms you are fucked mate! You just destroyed the plant! Dont mutations of this kind look "random as shit" even to the untrained eye? Yes they do,and guess what! They are! Chances of somethng usefull being made if you spill some mutagen on the plant is...less likely to happen that having sex with Einstein in a Burrito place. Microtubulin inhibitors on the other hand do NOT cause mutation. Lets start with a diploid plant (2n ,where n number of chromosomes ,diploid means it hgas two copies of each gene). In the S (synthesis) phase of the cell cycle the DNA gets doubled (4n) and during anaphase of Mitosis the DNA is equaly split to each of the two daughter cells arising giving rise to two cells with 2n nuclei.This is done by the help of microtubules,which are made of a protein named tubulin that polymerises and pulls the chromosomes in each daughter cell. A microtubulin inhibitor just wont let the microtubules polymerise! So there is a GREAT chance that when daughter cells form by cell division to have a daughter cell with no DNA and a daughter cell with 4n DNA.The DNAless cell die ,the 4n cell continues as normal.Keep in mind that no mutation occurs. Twice the DNA means on a molecular level : In laymans terms "twice of everything".Twice of enzymes,twice of proteins,twice of amount of signaling molecules and...twice of any secondary metabolist present! On a phenotypical level it means : Bigger plants (about twice in height girth),bigger leaves etc etc. Its not a "random proccess" it has been tested,it works and you dont need a full body protection suit ,nor the brain of a genius,nor geeky glasses for it to work.Just follow safety and instructions. So far so good...I could be talking though out of my ass but what we could consider "scientists" (you know those geeky people that spill numbers and weird theories) have tested this theory [url=http://www.taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/]www.taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/index/K2HFKUQ2YVNFC9HB.pdf (If link unclicable copy paste) 1.86 ,1.65 and 1.96 times more alkaloids in the species tested. It worked,almost the double! What i want to outline is that this is a viable procecedure,and relatively safe for one who can adhere to the rules. -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants! Edited by Psiloman (05/31/05 03:29 AM)
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darkice Stranger Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 48 Last seen: 15 years, 7 months |
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Well, the substances we are interestet in are secondary metabolites. Not the primary. There probably will be an increase in primary as these are always expressed and mostly mediated by enzymes. Secondary metabolites often include non enzymatic steps like oxidation.
It has been tryed before with for example artemisia annua, to increase production of artemisine (a secondary metabolite) without succes. If you want bigger plants with more lignin and other cell wall materials it can be usefull but for these substances its not an option.
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Erm...Do you guys read my posts?
I will quote myself : Quote: Atropine and scopolamine are alkaloids,secondary metabolites.If only primary metabolites were increased then this doesnt explain the 1.86 times higher alkaloid content! Quote: I would be interested to see the source.Do you have a citation? Quote: Secondary metabolites are heavily relying on enzymes as well.The oxidation you mention within the controled enviroment in the cell when needed happens mostly with enzymes. Dont forget that many conversions that take place for secondary metabolites to apperas happens in the endoplasmatic reticulum ,via enzymes. DMT synthesis happens this way for example as well as harmala alkaloid formation . DMT and harmala alkaloids are interesting compounds no? Same with mescaline as well... Keep in mind that polyploidy is being used for production of medicinally important alkaloids...That surely says that it is an option,and a pretty viable one if i may add! -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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darkice Stranger Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 48 Last seen: 15 years, 7 months |
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I found it, ok, the alkoloids production was enhanced. But the plants stayed smaller and had less leaf production so there was no netto gain.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...&query_hl=3
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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Ah preety nice article!!! I missed that completely on pubmed.Yes slower growing plants can be developed in tetraploidy.Here i wonder if some selective breeding at the top of that can speed up the growth! I wonder if the problem lies in roots :maybe tetraploid roots have some problem absorbing elemtns from the soil (thats a wild guess guys) which could be solved if only the apical stem (tip of the plant) is converted.so you have a mixaploid plant, that could show increased growth,or even compensate for the 25% loss in the mass.... Heh,if one doesnt run dry of ideas everything can be achieved!
Another interesting idea,leaving alkaloids on the self for the moment,is restoration of fertility in hybrids http://www.sna.org/research/03proceedings/03proceedingspdfs/section12.pdf In your acrodat choose "Search" and input "Oryzalin". Now that could be used on salvia to get some fertile pollen,maybe after some tweaking we can have Salvia divinorum that reproduces through seeds reliably! (For those who want to know more about salvia and why i reffer it as a hybrid check here http://www.sabia.com/salvia/ and check the barrier to fertility ) All in all polyploidy in hands of a responsible adult can be a very usefull tool. -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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pod3 Stranger Registered: 12/22/04 Posts: 362 Last seen: 17 years, 2 months |
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Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 11:15 AM)
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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"the same grafts produce a different result every time."
Ah the magic of genetics coupled with enviromental factors!!! A genotype can give many phenotypes under different enviromental conditions. "Speaking of Salvia divinorum, it was supposedly the hybrid of two different coleuses (crosspollination?), and apparently neither contined salvinorin. It would be interesting to see what interspecies chimera could produce." Same here! Another method on salvia would be to use the anther part where the gametic cells are aploid and cultivate them as aploid plantets on agar with different rations of auxins and cytokinins to initiate shoot and root formation in the callus.These plantets would not be fertile but one could convert them to diploids by Surflan. The advantages are 1)The resulting plant will be diploid (that is if you want it diploid and you dont suffice yourself to a tetraploid) 2)The plant will be homozygotic for all its traits..I dont know though the effect on salvinrin production... -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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pod3 Stranger Registered: 12/22/04 Posts: 362 Last seen: 17 years, 2 months |
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Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 11:14 AM)
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Psiloman member Registered: 04/11/03 Posts: 1,116 Loc: Europe Last seen: 10 years, 6 months |
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If you tissue culture two species together from different points of the petri dish the cultures will just meet at a point,or if you culture them from the same point they will just grow together along. If you are thinking of "mixing species" this way,i am afraid it wont work.For this kind of hybridisation you are propably looking at protoplast fusion.
Steps of protoplast fusion: 1)Take cells from donors (leaves are good) 2)Digest their cellwalls using enzymes at right temperature for some times (Kits for that can be foun online) 3)What you are left with is protoplasts.Naked plant cells.Their membranes are charged negatively so they repel eachother. In order for them to fuse you either add PEG (polyethylene glycol ,easy to find) or use electrophoresis 4)Watch under microscope which protoplasts duse and choose them. 5)Cultivate on agar on different concnentration of auxins and cytokinins to obrain plantets! Also the plant you may receive might not be fertile! A trick to try and restore fertility is polyploidy (yes ,again the same with my hypothesis on salvia divinorum!) but if you start the protoplast business with two diploid cells you are already gonna have a tetraploid.If you subject it to polyploidy you will have at least an octaploid which is generally bad news...Slow growth malformed! One though could overcome this by selecting the starting material for the fusion to be anthers..I think they are haploid so by fusion they will give you a diploid hybrid! THey did that with Datura inoxia and Datura stramonium and produced a hybrid that actually broke the "incobatibility factor" between those two plants and gave way for new hybrids! -------------------- Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!
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pod3 Stranger Registered: 12/22/04 Posts: 362 Last seen: 17 years, 2 months |
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Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 11:13 AM)
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