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 SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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 Re: Race And Intelligence  [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232295 - 05/29/05 01:19 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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First of all sickle-cell anemia isnt a physical defeciency. It is adaptation and evolution. People with sickle-cell anemia have an immensly reduced risk of ever catching Malaria, which is kind of all over africa. With respect to the current argument, and the fabricated connection, intelligence would be copascetic/congruent with evolution and adaptability. I cant imagine any situation where one genetic structure would hinder its intelligence as a sign of evolving.
Quote:
These same skills of reasoning apply to Americans and to Aborigine and can be detected by a properly designed IQ test.
ok, since you refuse to even acknowledge my entire point about how a test written by any person would be biased towards their own society, please show a perfect example of a question that can measure reasoning and logic, which is not culturally biased in anyway.
I mean, come on, think about it.... who really writes these tests? self absorbed, rich , white psychologists! WOW!! huge surprise that poor black people do worse. To say that there can be a standard measurement of a standard definition of INTELLIGENCE you have to be self-absorbed enough to think that all realities are the same, and presumptious enough to think that YOUR reality is a correct one. I cant imagine a much bigger reality gap than an 18 year old, destitute, black kid, and a 50 year old, white, rich "doctor"...... and you can sit here and say that there is no cultural bias in any of these IQ tests?
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 Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232310 - 05/29/05 01:29 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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*shudders*
Sickle Cell Anemia.. Let me explain that. (ten walls of debunking go up)
Malaria is the biggest killer in the history of mankind. It has killed more people than all wars and conflicts combined.
Sickle Cell is not a genetic deficit.
It is a condition of bloodcells that greatly protects against the contracting of this lethal disease. If you go 100 years back in time and live in say Congo, all the so-called intellectually superior white americans would be very busy with the process of dying off. And not just by Malaria. Let's go to a piece of rainforest, shall we? When July comes all but two of three in this thread would be dead.
Sickle Cell Anemia is comparable to the European resistance (no longer present) against smallpox.
Who would possibly think a rural non-westernized enviroment is genetically selective AGAINST intelligence. The whole idea is absurd. Pattern recognition spots the anaconda and the poison plant, anticipative thinking bags the critter for dinner, makes for longterm planning and so on, etcetera, etcetera etcetera.
A tribal enviroment is very selective for intelligence. Genetic intelligence isnt attributable to 150 years of industrial revolution, it was forged by two million years of the dumb dying first.
In present day America the smart cant even get laid 
Cups of coffee hold the warning that coffee can be hot, none of the greens at the fruitstand will give you projectile diarroea and there is "the right to keep and bear arms" but not "the right to free healthcare" "the right to the finest eduational system in the world".
Nope: its a race to get a stuffed wallet and THEN you can PAY for the rights you ought to have by default. By being ruthless about money creates the richest country of the world, but not exactly the smartest.
If a Dutchman or Japanese gets tested with the US test they score 111 and 112 on average, the other way around the average American scores around 90 on a Dutch or Japanese IQ test. That has NOTHING to do with genetic capability but the degree in which a culture cultivates the intelligence of its citizens. Good parents of above-average IQ tend to raise above-average children.. and above-average adopted children.
Inborn intelligence is the same in all so-called races, its culturally determined wheter it is cultivated and developed or not.
Look at the average Dutchman who'd score 111 on a US IQ test.
And another thing: lets say that AIDS was a gene (well strictly speaking its not but it IS sexually transmitted DNA, its just not ours)
How do lily-white Americans contract an equatorial African disease. Or, as was claimed before, how do straight girls contract a homo disease (which it never was)?
There has always been a healthy exchange of genes between Africans, Asians and Europeans through the concept of "fuck thy next door neighbour, which causes african hottentot genes to be present in european saxons *without anyone having sex outside of their race*.
If you travel from England around the mediterranian sea towards Southern Africa: guess what? you can NEVER tell where the one race stops and the other begins. Colors and shapes slowly and subtlely shift as you advance from village to village.
Since intelligence tends to fuck across larger distances it is one of the fastest-travelling gene packs which is genetically selected in any enviroment on earth, especially those of an acute life-or-death nature, which are rarely made in the West anymore.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (05/29/05 01:40 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232311 - 05/29/05 01:30 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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so why assume someone to be less intelligent based on a pigmentation?
It's just stupid -- there's no real REASON to hold such a belief.
I don't think anyone here is proposing this, least of all me.
But, I do not ignore data just because it's unpalatable. The data, imperfect as it is, shows a trend. It's more constructive to study the data to either substantiate or refute it, than it is to just ignore it because doing otherwise is politically incorrect.
The findings of the APA task force (in the link you claim you read) state that IQ scores do have high predictive validity for individuals' performance in school. They confirm the predictive validity of IQ for adult occupational status, even when variables such as education and family background have been statistically controlled. And they agree that individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by genetics.
An individual's credit score has high predictive value in how they handle their finances. Why doesn't anyone throw a fit over credit scores? I think it's because they have nothing to do with genetics, race, and all the other hyper-sensitive politically charged words that come into play with IQ.
Let's have an honest discussion of the issue rather than sweep it under the carpet because it's racially sensitive, eh?
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232332 - 05/29/05 01:53 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Let's have an honest discussion of the issue rather than sweep it under the carpet because it's racially sensitive, eh?
yeah, lets just argue this out until we can finally prove that niggers are dumb based on socio-economic and culturally biased tests!
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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What do you propose? Dropping the issue instead of discussing it?
By the way, before you go off implying that I'm a bigot or a racist, you should note that I'm not white but latino. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232373 - 05/29/05 02:39 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Simply put.. race doesn't figure into the equation at all.
You can hate on stupid people all you want. I hate those dimwits myself -- they're the reason the back doors of my goddamn car have windows that won't go down the whole way, they're the reason there's a dozen goddamned warning stickers on a thing as simple as a ladder, they're the reason plastic grocery bags read "Warning: Not A Toy".
But dumb isn't racially transmitted. Dumb is socially transmitted.
Are black folk in america, all averaged up, more dumb than white folk? I wouldn't discount that little bit -- but I wouldn't attribute it to their race or any other genetic quirk. I'd place it at the feet of the culture and society of inner cities.. with the most people, those places tend to have a way of swaying statistics. Those areas are also often predominantly black -- or at least, have a higher representation of minorities than more affluent areas.
But then I think I'm on record as saying that I hate cities with a passion. Everything about them.
Let's take it one further -- aren't such areas almost always democratic strongholds?
Hey, if we connect that, we could just throw on out there that the democrats are the party of dimwits 
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232378 - 05/29/05 02:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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By the way, before you go off implying that I'm a bigot or a racist, you should note that I'm not white but latino.
For the first time ever, you truly lost me. Only whites can be racist, but not latinos?
Por que?
Porque Pig?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Asante]
#4232381 - 05/29/05 02:47 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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*shudders*
Sickle Cell Anemia.. Let me explain that. (ten walls of debunking go up)
Malaria is the biggest killer in the history of mankind. It has killed more people than all wars and conflicts combined.
Sickle Cell is not a genetic deficit.
Nope, where do you get this?
According to WebMD: Sickle cell disease is an inherited disorder.
This means it IS a genetic deficit.
See for yourself: http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/hw254198.asp
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232398 - 05/29/05 03:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Simply put.. race doesn't figure into the equation at all.
With one sweeping statement you discount the findings of the APA task force on the issue.
You'll forgive me if I give their findings more weight than yours.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 03:46 AM)
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232438 - 05/29/05 03:28 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sickle Cell Anemia.. Let me explain that. (ten walls of debunking go up)
Malaria is the biggest killer in the history of mankind. It has killed more people than all wars and conflicts combined.
Sickle Cell is not a genetic deficit.
.
Nope, where do you get this?
.
According to WebMD: Sickle cell disease is an inherited disorder.
I dont want to be condescending but 
I am not disputing that it is genetic, it is. I am not saying it doesnt have detrimental effects, it does or it wouldnt be an anemia.
The fact that you rub WebMD in my face without understanding my long message and considering the entire post dismissed shows that you were not thinking in a thread about intelligence.
Hence the
Quote:
By the way, before you go off implying that I'm a bigot or a racist, you should note that I'm not white but latino.
Is that ignorant or racist? White people didnt invent racism nor will it end when the so called "white race" goes extinct.
If you don't realize racism goes in all directions and is self-defeating in all cases then you have much to learn about racism.
--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (05/29/05 03:32 AM)
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Asante]
#4232461 - 05/29/05 03:36 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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In any area with malaria, sickle cell is far from a disorder, it's a boon.
It's only absent malaria -- absent the thing it protects against -- that it can be considered a disorder.
Because you get the negative side of it, without ever needing the positive side of it.
Anyhow, as I said.. it's a bad example, sickle cell is 100% genetic, not environmental, and determined by a very small number of genes. We really have no idea how many genes in what combinations might determine intelligence, and even then it is not 100% genetic.
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i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Asante]
#4232512 - 05/29/05 04:02 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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You said "Sickle Cell is not a genetic deficit." This is not correct. I corrected you. Where did I go wrong?
Further, you're trying to discount the validity of IQ testing. You use the Dutchman who'd score 111 on a US IQ test as an example of why they're not valid. This is just a case of reverse bias and an example of why an IQ test designed for a Dutchman should be different than a test designed for an American.
In the end, the two individually designed tests, when normalized, give useful and meaningful data about the likely performance of each individual in scholastic, vocational, and numerous other areas and they support the idea of a genetic link to IQ.
If you dispute this, you dispute the APA task force that studied this issue in depth. 
Is that ignorant or racist? White people didnt invent racism nor will it end when the so called "white race" goes extinct.
This was a direct response to a veiled accusation of racism. As a Latino, I certainly have no reason to side with the APA findings. I side with their findings because they are supported by a carefull scrutinizing of the data.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 04:10 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232518 - 05/29/05 04:07 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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In any area with malaria, sickle cell is far from a disorder, it's a boon.
The point is that, contrary to what some here believe, when I see a black guy, I can reasonably conclude, based just on what I see, that this person is predisposed to SCA.
From looking at him alone, I can glean some information about his genetics. If IQ is at least in part genetic, then by extension, from looking at him alone, I can glean some information about his IQ.
This is not PC, I know, but based on the available data, it is true.
The difference between me and the medows and bunny rabit types is that I'm not afraid of the Truth even when it's ugly.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 05:26 AM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232584 - 05/29/05 05:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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#1- The APA is a peice of shit organization. Yes, I will go on record right now saying that their "findings" dont mean shit to me. Psychiatrists are the scum of the earth IMO. Psychiatry is not a fact, it is a theory of how the brain works. For years the APA, pharm corps and the FDA have been in bed together inventing new mental disorders for you to have so you can go buy their invented pill that arent given the due process of test trials. They all have no regard for human well-being and are only driven by money.
#2- So lets hypothetically say that there is a link between genetics and intelligence, k? what do you do from there? does it make your life easier now that you can justify your racism based on the fact that other genetically different gene pools are intellectually inferior? I can almost hear Lanz von Liebenfels and Hitler dancing to Wagner together in your head.
#3- yes I am discounting the validity of IQ tests, which I have done so far in almost every post here.
#4- what would be the point of any of these studies? If we can figure out if intelligence is genetic, then maybe we can isolate and improve that group of genes? get real... the majority of people on this forum are "intelligent" people, not because they were genetically predisposed to being so, but because they constantly used their brain and mind, excercised it, and have gone recreational with it; we do this by constantly reading, having friendly debates on subjects like the impact of dildos on 3rd world muslim countries and eating mushrooms....all of these things constantly cause us to become more and more intelligent due to the fact that we are attempting to be so aware on so many levels about so many facets of life.
I am willing to bet that if we took the average IQ score of all the shroomerites (OTD excluded) we would be overwhelmingly above average, and I am willing to bet that the amount of white people in here wouldnt be enough to explain this phenomenon.
In fact, if that study were done, it would probably show more of a correlation between shroom usage and intelligence than race and intelligence.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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The APA is a peice of shit organization. Yes, I will go on record right now saying that their "findings" dont mean shit to me. Psychiatrists are the scum of the earth
DING-DING-DING!
The old reliable ad hominem rears its ugly head. This forum is so consistent, I could set my watch by it.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Diploid]
#4232606 - 05/29/05 06:15 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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that is pretty amazing, I have only seen Swami ever accuse someone of this debate tactic while using it to accuse them of said debate tactic...
Also, since when has the APA become an infallible and credible scientific organization who's findings are insoluble? shit, not even 15 years ago they were claiming that homosexuality was a mental disorder, and just recently they have now officially endorsed gay marriage....
yeah, real credible research group. How about researching the group a little before you blindly accept any spoonful of crap they are willing to feed you?
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Quote:
The point is that, contrary to what some here believe, when I see a black guy, I can reasonably conclude, based just on what I see, that this person is predisposed to SCA.
From looking at him alone, I can glean some information about his genetics. If IQ is at least in part genetic, then by extension, from looking at him alone, I can glean some information about his IQ.
no, you're making a statement about the individual by looking at the population. statistics makes statements about populations not individuals.
another way to say this is: what's the odds black man X is has a higher IQ than white man Y? the odds are 1 or 0. he either is or he isn't. you can't say anything about the individual based on the population.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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you can't say anything about the individual based on the population.
I agree, and it's why I said:
I can reasonably conclude, based just on what I see, that this person is *predisposed* to SCA.
I can't claim, from looking, that he's got SCA, only that the odds favor that being true. A similar conclusion can be drawn about IQ.
The point is that I can gain some statistical information about his genetics by simply looking. This holds for IQ as well.
Is this a good thing? Should this be used to pre-judge the guy? Should en employer use this information covertly to pre-deny him a job (because he's black), or the bank to pre-deny him a loan?
These are important issues and it's why I started this thread. The statistical information is out there, like it or not, and it's being used to discriminate, right or wrong.
This is why the issue must be discussed and not suppressed because it's politically incorrect to discuss it.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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The APA didn't even suggest what you are, Diploid.
They pointed out in your link that there is an abberation between the results of the testing -- it didn't pan out equally when seperated by race.
They also mentioned that though asians scored lower than white -- 98 next to 100 -- they also were quite successful professionally. Somewhere in there they mentioned that the IQ they figure an average white man would need to be as successful as a 100 IQ asian man would be about 110-120.
As far as assuming the intellect of someone based upon appearance..
exactly what purpose does that serve? I fail to see any, myself -- someone with a high IQ can easily be an idiot, just as someone with a low IQ can easily know what's up.
From the tests I've taken, I've found that IQ tests, while they may measure intelligence to some extent, are far better at measuring one's ability to take tests than anything else. As a novelty, great fun, but I can't say I put much stock in the results of an IQ test as a measure of one's braininess.
--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Race And Intelligence [Re: Mushmonkey]
#4232855 - 05/29/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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The APA didn't even suggest what you are, Diploid.
Direct quote from the report:
African-American 19 scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests. In recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably. It is possible that the IQ-score differential is narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established. The cause of that differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves.
Additionally:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support.
Also directly from the report:
Differences in genetic endowment contribute substantially to individual differences in (psychometric) intelligence, but the pathway by which genes produce their effects is still unknown. The impact of genetic differences appears to increase with age, but we do not know why.
What part of what I've been saying differs with the report?
As far as assuming the intellect of someone based upon appearance..
exactly what purpose does that serve?
I am not proposing any purpose. I am only pointing out the available data and the fact that this data is being used, for better or for worse.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (05/29/05 10:11 AM)
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