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monkeyking
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Failing a drug test for legal herbs
#3674494 - 01/24/05 08:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Anyone ever heard of this happening? I heard it was possible to fail for opiates when taking blue Lotus because it has something that is similar to morpheine. Anyone ever heard this? Thanks for your help
-------------------- "My Fear Is My Only Courage" Bob Marley
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SourceLimit
Above TheirInfluence
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: monkeyking]
#3674527 - 01/24/05 08:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Kratom can possibly cause a opium positive But Opiats have a rather short detection period so it shouldn't be much concern if it is not a random test.
Edited by SourceLimit (01/24/05 09:01 PM)
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gdman
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: SourceLimit]
#3674599 - 01/24/05 09:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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You think it can? the structure of the actives do not resemble opiates, I thought it was an indol.
-------------------- Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before. I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights. - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess "I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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blink
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: gdman]
#3674616 - 01/24/05 09:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
gdman said: You think it can? the structure of the actives do not resemble opiates, I thought it was an indole.
blue lotus?
Rumored to contain aporphine or apomorphine (6a-beta-aporphine-10,11-diol [Merck]) - a dopamine agonist - as well as perhaps nuciferine (1,2-dimethoxy-aporphine).
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: SourceLimit]
#3675477 - 01/24/05 11:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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>>Kratom can possibly cause a opium positive
Drug tests test for metabolites of specific drugs, kratom alkaloids are not similar to the the classical opiates and hence do not produce the same metabolites. You won't fail a drug test when using kratom.
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runnerup
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#3675501 - 01/24/05 11:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
neuro said: >>Kratom can possibly cause a opium positive
Drug tests test for metabolites of specific drugs, kratom alkaloids are not similar to the the classical opiates and hence do not produce the same metabolites. You won't fail a drug test when using kratom.
neuro speaks the truth !
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mjshroomer
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: monkeyking]
#3675771 - 01/25/05 12:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Shit, most spices are chemicaly phenylethylamines and can make you should up positive for amphetamines. the Essential oils of nutmeg and mace have saffrole and myristicine int hem.. NDNA andMDA can be syyntesized formt hem. Also saffrole from sassafrass, ddill apiole and apiole from spanish dill, fennel oil from fennel seed.
A spicing cake.
All show up as amphetamine.
AS for opiates, kratom will show up.
so will wild lettuce which is already knopwn for coantaining minute amounts of landanum
mj
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BorgFace
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: mjshroomer]
#3675815 - 01/25/05 12:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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landanum? That wouldn't be anything like laudanum would it? If so, laudanum was a liquid suspension of opium, not a separate drug.
-------------------- Give me an ounce of civet, good apothecary, to sweeten my imagination!
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Young_but_cool
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: blink]
#3676484 - 01/25/05 07:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
blinkidiot said:
Quote:
gdman said: You think it can? the structure of the actives do not resemble opiates, I thought it was an indole.
blue lotus?
Rumored to contain aporphine or apomorphine (6a-beta-aporphine-10,11-diol [Merck]) - a dopamine agonist - as well as perhaps nuciferine (1,2-dimethoxy-aporphine).
The key word is rumored. Those compounds have not been found in nymphea. They are however abundently found in Nelumbo nucifera, and might show up in tests for opiates.
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Young_but_cool
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: mjshroomer]
#3676491 - 01/25/05 07:31 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Kratom will NOT show up in a drug test, at least not for opiates.
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: mjshroomer]
#3676548 - 01/25/05 07:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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>>AS for opiates, kratom will show up. Can you please cite this, this is a hard pill to swallow chemically speaking. Just because some drugs have similar actions that are not chemically similar, i.e. Activate same receptor complexes, it does not necessarily follow you will produce the same metabolite. In this case I'm looking at the classical opiates on a NIDA Five and their metabolites, and Kratom. Unless kratom contains other compounds that are chemically similar (the opioid kratom alkaloids aren't even close) to the classical opiates, this theoretically and simply won't happen. Unless you can cite a source that provides an alternative un pursued explanation.
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gdman
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#3676568 - 01/25/05 07:47 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Naw neuro, I was talking kratom, mj how would kratom show up as an opiate?
-------------------- Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before. I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights. - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess "I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: gdman]
#3676589 - 01/25/05 07:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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>>Naw neuro, I was talking kratom,
I'm lost, isn't that what we've sort of been talking about the whole time. I've been talking kratom too.
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gdman
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#3677141 - 01/25/05 10:02 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh man, my fault, I ment blink, I was refering to kratom and he though tI was talking about lotus... sorry for the confusion.
-------------------- Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before. I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights. - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess "I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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dressel11
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Young_but_cool]
#3679877 - 01/25/05 08:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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i heard some otc drugs can show up on drug test as illegal drugs too. can anyone tell me if this is true.
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Boom
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: dressel11]
#3680209 - 01/25/05 09:42 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Poppy seed bagels = Opiates ? or is that a stupid myth
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Tremor1127
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Boom]
#3680240 - 01/25/05 09:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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poppy seeds will definently cause detection of opiates, fact...
im not sure on all the rest...
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Toricious
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Tremor1127]
#3680283 - 01/25/05 09:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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on erowid I believe they tell you what could cause fake detection of a drug based on something else....if I remember correctly ibuprofane shows up as weed on a drug test.
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Signo
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Tremor1127]
#3680419 - 01/25/05 10:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fact: Poppy seeds will not cause a false negative on your test. Fact: Poppy seeds that are consumed commonly are not opium poppies.
Fact: Just because someone says something on the internet is a fact doesn't make it a fact. Find out for yourself what the truth is through reliable resources.
-------------------- Correlation is not causation!
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Signo]
#3682236 - 01/26/05 08:10 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually, believe it or not, it is possible for poppy seed bagels to cause false positives on test.
I saw the expeirment carried out, and standard drug test (dip and stick) come up positive several times in a row, where a subsequent true positive vs time graph was made.
You can also have seen this done on Mythbusters, on the discovery channel. I went in beleiving it wasn't possible, but they showed it was, this was the second time I've seen this experiment done, so it was replicated with a true positive twice!
I'm now a believer.
Some other drugs that are not psychoactives can sometimes cause false positives, I've heard of some cases of certain antibiotics causing false positives for something which I forget.
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gdman
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#3682297 - 01/26/05 08:40 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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yeah poppy seeds can have some residual latex material on them, no where near enough to feel any kind of buzz or anything, but it coul dbe enough to posibly trigger a positive, just be careful I guess.
-------------------- Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before. I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights. - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess "I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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AuroricDistortions
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#3682339 - 01/26/05 09:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Some relevant info...
"The cutoff concentration for this test is 2000 ng/ml, as recommended by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) and the U.S. National Institute of Drug Abuse (NIDA). Prior to December 1, 1998 the cutoff level was 300 ng/ml but was raised in order to reduce the possibility of false positives from poppy seeds. The cutoff for GC-MS, which detects morphine or codeine, is 150 ng/ml. The US Military uses a cutoff level of 3000 ng/ml in order to try to avoid false positives...With the new higher cutoff levels (2,000 ng/ml), Heroin use will generally only produce a positive test result for a day after single use (somewhat longer with chronic use)." link
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Bolwarra
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i recently watched that episode of Myth busters too!
they even had a scientist explain opiate testing works by 'looking' for codeine and morphine @ levels of 300-1200 ngm's.
Quote:
Fact: Poppy seeds that are consumed commonly are not opium poppies.
Fact: Just because someone says something on the Internet is a fact doesn't make it a fact. Find out for yourself what the truth is through reliable resources.
Maybe you should follow your own advice. Actually the common poppy seeds are a by-product of legal Papaver somniferum cultivation and as such comes from the 'real' poppy.
-- seems like the jury is still out re: Kratom
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: monkeyking]
#3692568 - 01/28/05 07:43 AM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm just going to post this in all relevant threads that have popped up about this for cataloguing and archivng for anyone who does a future search for Kratom and Drug test info in this forum and doesn't read all the threads, they will at least find the answer.
Quote:
This is a wrong assumption. Just because a chemical acts on a receptor doesn't mean it causes false positives. With the large group of chemicals we have found that act on opiate receptors and the varying subtypes, Salvinorin, Opiate Narcotics, and what we call Opioids like the Fentanyls, it is no longer safe to say that a chemical that acts on opiate receptors will be structurally similar to the classical opiates like morphine and codeine. And this is the key to the detection of drugs, specifically drug metabolites, in urine: their structure. Fentanyls are very much different than the classical opiates like morphine and codeine. Thus a new immunoassay must be developed, that is new antibodies must be produced that bind to the fentanyl structures. Drug tests work by testing for metabolites of illegal drugs. When a drug is ingested by the body it goes through several modifications. These modifications are usually done with first (in some cases) digestive juices and enzymes and second peripheral circulatory and cellular enzymes or liver enzymes not included in the initial digestive pass. The enzymes that act on drugs are sometimes specific and sometimes not, for example MAOIs have certain wide affects on drugs Indoles and Phenethylamines aren't too closely related but MAOIs of a certain type will act on both. Drug detection works by proceeding through a specific chemical reaction called an immunoassay. Drug-test dip sticks contain antibodies, that are produced in test animals or cell cultures as part of the immune system, on them that can bind with drug metabolites of a specific type. An example: Morphine can be made into heroin (diacetylmorphine) by the addition of two acetyl groups. Heroin, after injection, smoking, etc.. is quickly metabolized in the body to 6-acetylmorphine by the removal of one acetyl group and, then, morphine after the removal of the second acetyl group. These antibodies, that are made for the testing device, are made to specifically bind to a drug such as morphine. However, the morphine antibody will also bind drugs that are very similar in chemical structure to morphine. Codeine is very similar in chemical structure to morphine, as are three synthetic narcotics: Dilaudid (hydromorphone), Percodan (oxycodone), and Vicodin (hydrocodone). The immunoassay screening tests for opiates will detect to varying degrees all of these narcotics. The synthetic narcotics Darvon (propoxyphene), Demerol (meperidine), and methadone are not detected by the opiate immunoassays. Heroin, morphine, codeine, Dilaudid, Percodan and Vicodin are all narcotic analgesics that can be abused and are addictive. A positive morphine screen with test stick kits can be caused by any of these drugs and, also, consumption of several teaspoons of poppy seeds. This is true with all opiate immunoassays, whether lab or on-site rapid screens. A comparison of Morphine and Kratom Alkaloid: On a side note: However, the 6-acetylmorphine metabolite is detectable in urine for only several hours after use of heroin, while morphine is detectable above the 2,000 ng/mL for about a day. It has been shown that consumption of poppy seeds in most cases will not result in a morphine concentration of 2,000 ng/mL or greater. With no 6-acetylmorphine found, detecting the presence of morphine or codeine. Codeine can be present from use of codeine and from use of heroin. If the codeine level is higher than the morphine level, the source is probably codeine use. Raising the cutoff for opiates from 300 ng/mL to 2,000 ng/mL reduces the time window of detection for heroin, morphine and codeine to about a day after use. It, also, eliminates most poppy seed positives.
Edited by neuro (01/28/05 07:48 AM)
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Agaricus
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Signo]
#3693496 - 01/28/05 12:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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It looks as though McCormick uses Papaver somniferum L. for their seeds.
http://www.mccormick.com/productdetail.cfm?id=6434
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gdman
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: Agaricus]
#3693520 - 01/28/05 12:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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All poppy seeds used for cooking are P. Somniferum, I'm pretty sure of that. However, do those seeds contain enough alkaloids to trigger a positive? Probably not, but I don't know. The only reason why they would contain alkaloids, would be if some latex somehow stuck to some of the seeds. I believe they wash the seeds before they pack them, so that would further reduce the possibility of a false positive.
-------------------- Got a question about a substance? Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the mushroom experience? The Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before. I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights. - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess "I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve
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neuro
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: gdman]
#3693713 - 01/28/05 01:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pharamceutial drug testing industries claim the seeds contain alkaloids to a certain percentage.
Dr. Duke has to say:
CODEINE Seed Low ppm: 0.1 high ppm: 440
MORPHINE Seed Low ppm:0.3 High ppm:390
THEBAINE Seed low ppm: 10 high ppm: 410
source: http://sun.ars-grin.gov:8080/npgspub/xsql/duke/plantdisp.xsql?taxon=697
And yes Papaver Somniferum is the only source for poppyseed/breadseed poppy.
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whitegreyhat
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#4137653 - 05/05/05 12:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Laboratory Methods Laboratory detection of morphine and codeine is performed by immunoassay. Confirmation is by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS).
Cutoff and Detection Post Dose The detection limit of the initial screen is 300 ng/ml, with a sensitivity of 20 ng/ml. This is sufficient to detect heroin use for approximately 24-48 hours post dose and codeine for somewhat longer. Positives are confirmed on GC/MS at a cutoff level of 300 ng/ml.
http://www.healthy.net/clinic/lab/labtest/007.asp
Therefor we can deduce that most drugs that are metabolized into morphine (diacetylmorphine) are detectable on standard drug tests as opiates. Drugs like vicodin which break down into hydromorphone are detectable only if they test specifically for that substance.
I cannot say for sure but i dont think there is any proof that wild lettuce , kratom (9-methoxy-corynantheidine) or any other herbs break down into morphine or any other illegal substance. As for poppy seeds, I believe you would have to eat a massive amount to test positive, but if your getting tested why take the risk anyway... Not like poppy seeds can get you high right?
So if i am interpreting this right that means they take metabolite cells that are specifically designed to react with dicetylmorphine (for drug testing opiates)from animals or other artificial means to see if it reacts, thus causing a positive test result. (as for the substances in question we dont have specific information as to what they metabolize into in the body so you cant really answer the question unless you know that)
Debate or comment if you think i am wrong...
Also check this http://www.erowid.org/pharms/hydrocodone/hydrocodone_testing.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/testing/testing_info1.shtml Also they are right kratom is closer to lsd and psilocybin chemically, its an indole. http://www.kratomshop.com/cureaddiction.htm
Also here is a complete article on the articles on Kratom Alkaloids, its too scientific for me to understand but maybe someone can!
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/bulletin/bulletin_1974-01-01_2_page005.html
does this make sense to anyone else?
Edited by whitegreyhat (05/05/05 04:23 PM)
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Skunk420
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#4697448 - 09/22/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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wow, but will Kratom cause a false positive for opium though, in a regular urine drug test? it seems like it might because it feels actually better then a opiate high to me. But I tried 2 grams in a tea the first time, but i seeped it for 20 minutes, I got very good effects like i took some oxycodones, but it was cleaner and it didnt make me itch like opiates do. I tried super grade kratom, i ordered the premium and the sent me super, they must have been out.. I still have 4 grams left and I have to take random drug tests weekly for counceling. P.S. this is to anyone that knows of this first hand..
Edited by skunk78395 (09/22/05 09:05 PM)
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Iamthewalrus
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: whitegreyhat]
#4699330 - 09/23/05 04:57 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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actually they(I forget their names I haven't seen mythbusers in a while) tested postive for opiates almost immediately after eating the bagels and poppy seed cake(1 ate cake and 1 ate bagels but both tested positive after the first test and all tests after that) they were very surprised themselves...they expected to bust the myth
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#4704281 - 09/24/05 07:23 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
neuro said: >>Kratom can possibly cause a opium positive
Drug tests test for metabolites of specific drugs
some clinical tests test for covering agents instead of the metabolite, also many OTC meds can produce false positive on drug tests, Ibuprofin can test positive as Marijuana
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Skunk420
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Re: Failing a drug test for legal herbs [Re: neuro]
#4710450 - 09/25/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
neuro said: >>Kratom can possibly cause a opium positive
Drug tests test for metabolites of specific drugs, kratom alkaloids are not similar to the the classical opiates and hence do not produce the same metabolites. You won't fail a drug test when using kratom.
..well it figures I would miss that, never mind... that answers my question then..I already ordered some more anyway. I am only going to do it every once in a while anyway.
Edited by skunk78395 (09/25/05 03:28 PM)
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