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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
MYCOTOXICOSIS * 1
    #3454667 - 12/06/04 12:36 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Listen to me very carefully people. I have just returned from my doctor this morning and I have been found to be suffering from very high levels of Toxic molds.

In fact I an very sick and in some serious danger. I have been a fool with contaimed Jars and such over the past year.

DO NOT OPEN ANY JAR WITH ANYTHING GROWING IN IT THAT IS NOT MUSHROOM FUNGUS> THROW IT OUT.


Here is a list of the symptoms that are realated to Fugus/Mold Toxicity.


The following are a list of SOME  of the most common symptoms of fungal exposure (Bear in mind, most people never fit all of this criteria). Most people with mycotoxicosis meet at least ten (recent symptoms) of the following criteria:
Respiratory distress, coughing, sneezing, sinusitis
Difficulty swallowing, choking, spitting up (vomiting) mucous
Hypersensitivity pneumonitis
Burning in the throat and lungs
Asthmatic signs; wheezing, shortness in breath, coughing, burning in lungs, etc.
Diarrhea, nausea, piercing lower abdominal pains, vomiting
Bladder, liver, spleen, or kidney problems
Memory loss; short term memory; brain fog
Vision problems
Swollen lymph nodes
Headaches
Slurred speech
Anxiety/depression - confusion, short term memory problems
Ringing in ears, balance problems, dizziness
Chronic fatigue
Numbness in face and limbs, intermittent twitching
Night sweats
Elevated blood pressure and triglycerides, heart palpitations
Nose bleeds
Bruising easily
Rash
Sudden weight changes
Cancer
Hair loss
Arthralgia (Pain in the joints without swelling)
Heart attack
Seizures
Inadvertent facial movements or extremity jerking


I have a very hard battle in front of me and it seems that I am very sick. I am suffering from many of the above things. I am knda scared and have been sick for quite awhile. My doctor has been confused and not found to much with the tests he has givin me so far. But 2 weeks ago I confessed to my hobbie. My edible hobbie :rolleyes:. And that I have been cleaning out any contaimed Jars outside but in fact I have gotten a few lungs full of mold spores. He freaked and ordered a new set of tests. and today it was confirmed that I am in serious trouble.

This is a repet thread but it is very important and I want all to make damn sure you see this
:crazy:


A person can Die. A person can destroy many things inside. A person can damage there heart to the point of heart attack.


I am now very scared and want to tell you JUST THROW THE FUCKING JARS AWAY. DO NOT SCREW AROUND WITH CONTAIMENTS :frown:

There is much info on line............Much of it very Dotorish but if you sort throught it you will find much more info.

BECAREFUL people :thumbup:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineKenny7822
Kenny
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 842
Loc: MA, USA
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3454689 - 12/06/04 12:41 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry to hear about this, I hope everything turns out ok and I hope other people take your advice seriously to avoid this happening to them.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Kenny7822]
    #3454709 - 12/06/04 12:48 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah it sucks . The doctor though I may have some type of Cancer. The worst symptom I suffer from is Lymph glands the size of Golfballs. My left arm pit has a huge expanded Lymph gland. I had to cut my poker trip to Vegas short because I am just fucking very weak and sickly. I quit all drugs about a month ago and I started to feel better then the past 4 days I have gotten much worse. :frown:

I suffer from about 80% of the symptoms found in my first post. They have gotten much worse this week. This sucks bigtime.  :thumbdown:


More tests next friday. The thing is, that this type of infection is very very difficult to clean out of the body. My doctor seems more worried than me so maybe I just don't see the danger I may be in.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinefresh313
journeyman
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3454756 - 12/06/04 12:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

what test did they do to confirm it? IgE antibody or something? jw

Edited by fresh313 (12/06/04 01:08 PM)

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fresh313]
    #3454808 - 12/06/04 01:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Blood tests and a lot of piss.

Next Friday I am going to having some Material taken from my Lymph glands


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3454856 - 12/06/04 01:20 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I pray to God that you're going to be ok FN, you're one of the good ones and much too important to lose

:sun: :heart: :sun: :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Invisiblegdman
badger, badger,badger...
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/02
Posts: 16,286
Loc: Dancing In the Streets
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3454867 - 12/06/04 01:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Your in my thoughts, get well soon.


--------------------


Got a question about a substance?  Erowid might already have your answer! Have questions about the  mushroom experience? The  Tripper's FAQ may have your answer or someone else might have had your question before.
         
I know up on the top you are seeing great sights, but down at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
  - Theodor Seuss Geisel Dr. Suess

"I didn't come here to be easily understood" - Steve

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3454938 - 12/06/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks you guys.......... I am very worried but I am not going to die unless of course I take no action :rolleyes:.

I just have some work to do and I may have done some long term damage. But God can heal me. I leave it in his hands and soon the worry I will be able to leave with him as well. Prayer is powerful. Plus I will find out what things the doctors will do for me. Probley lots a pills and I probley will need to hire some crew to sterilize my house. :blush:



The fact is I have been a FOOL and have payed the price.

Look at it like this. Not only will I learn this lesson but so will all of you.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3454984 - 12/06/04 01:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Not only will I learn this lesson but so will all of you.


All You can do is sow the seed through your own (unfortunate) experience, some may learn but many i fear will delude themselves into thinking:"It'll never happen to me"But you're conscience is free of guilt and it's not on your hands if people don't listen. Take this on any level you wish :wink:


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Invisiblelukeboots
fresh futuristic
Male User Gallery
Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 19,728
Loc: Grand Ole Operating Syste...
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #3455067 - 12/06/04 02:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry to hear about this FN, I hope you'll be OK :heart:

This is an important lesson for everyone, as you said - so thank you for posting it.


--------------------

funky ass music: Planet of Dinosaurs // Rich Whiskey

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OfflineCaptain Loafy McPoopdick
(4 1 2)

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 6,571
Loc: 1 5 1 3 6
Last seen: 18 years, 30 days
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: lukeboots]
    #3455109 - 12/06/04 02:38 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I'm sorry, this is no good. I don't know you but that doesn't mean I can't wish you to get better....

I hope you get better

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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Captain Loafy McPoopdick]
    #3455174 - 12/06/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

wow my friend, i am sorry for your problem and hope for your recovery.

my advice? fuck poker man! you dont need to be running around gambeling and movin! you should get a clean sterile room, a warm bed, book at least a week of school or work, get some ecinachea, some vitamin C, some chicken noodle soup , a shitload of purified water, some green tea, and fucking baricade yourself in there with some relaxing music and fucking rest up man!

you need to recover!


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3455200 - 12/06/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I wish it was that simple. The fact is I may be in some real trouble. I have allowed this stuff to fester in my body for many months. Mold can in fact kill. Heavy intake of Black Mold spores is the most likly culprit at this time. But I have many more tests to take. It will be awhile before I know the full extent of what has happened.








Everyone else............

I want to clarify a few things. I did not get this sick from a small jar with a small patch of containment's. This is what happened.


I had 24 quart jars packed with substrate and ready to go into the PC. But the next day I was required to go down state and handle a serious problems at my shop. I did not return for a week and in the heat of my troubles just forgot about the damn jars.


So when I found then they were packed full PACKED FULL of the most vile shit you can imagine. Pink, green, yellow and black freaky looking stuff. So instead of throwing them out I scraped them clean. Oh yeah I wore a painters mask..................


But the fact is I was in a very bad mood that day and my wife was yelling at me and shit was not good. So in the bad mood I just keep scraping and being very angry. I should have just bought new jars.


Anyway I exposed myself to who knows what.


And sadly this was not the first time I had been so foolish. About 3 months before that I had a similar experience with some quart jars under my back porch. I was going to toss them but they had a bunch of Shrooms growing in the top of the Jars. Fascinated that Shrooms had grown in very contaminated Jars with the lids on under my porch. I opened them and examined the shrooms. I did throw away all the jars and the shrooms. But i remember ho bad they smelled.


If you can smell the contaims you have introduced them into your body.


So I have exposed myself to very large quantities of the NASTIES twice in the past year.


They fester in your organs and glands. They grow and it takes awhile for them to start trouble. And if like me just blew the symptoms off as something else they just keep festering and growing inside you.


Anyway......... I hope everyone gets it.


More to follow...........


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineboO
Female User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 5,364
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455212 - 12/06/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

i seriously hope that you'll eventually be ok and the test results don't turn out to be so bad....please keep us informed on what happens

our thoughts are with you

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455272 - 12/06/04 03:14 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

What is exactly happening to me..........

OK here it is..........

My lymph glands in my arm pits are the size of Golf balls. My left arm has gone about 50% numb. It twitches all night when i am trying to sleep. The lymph glands in my chest and neck are twice the size they should be.


I suffer from a constant runny nose and nightly nose bleeds.

My bladder over the past month has been very weak. I pee a lot.

My eye sight has gotten fuzzy and my eye balls just feel sore

Pains in my guts that last only a few seconds but are very painful

A general feeling of wanting to sleep

Depression and anxiety are a daily part of life

Very high blood pressure and I can feel my heart beat in my neck,face and head about 3/4 of the day. Lots if pressure

Headaches that only last a few mins but I have several a day.

I started having panic attacks when as of a month ago I never had one in my entire life. Now I have them 2-3 times a day.

And my dick has suddenly decided to take a break from sex.....grrrrrrrrr

Anyway I am getting sicker by the day.

My doctor checked for heart problems........ Nothing

He checked for Cancer......nothing

He checked for some other things and was getting very confused. at least that is what I picked up on.

Then he sat me down and had me describe my life and my every habit and hobby. That is when he realized I may be having a problem with a Mold infection. He has limited experience with this but he is dealing with it.

He may send me to Detroit to see a specialist.

I have been doing much reading online and have found out that some Mold infections are very dangerous and can Kill you. They can cause your heart to be become so damaged that your life is cut short by decades.


I really may have fucked up..........


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlineballs
thats right
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455321 - 12/06/04 03:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

All those signs could very well be your body shutting down, espically at that speed. Your posts about God have been very inspiring to me, and I guess I can say they have helped me in my relationship with God. Your in Gods hands and I dont think its your time to go yet, maybe hes just teaching you something. But good luck, thanks you and you better be posting for the many days to come!

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Offlineballs
thats right
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: balls]
    #3455327 - 12/06/04 03:24 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I didnt mean to make it sound like a farewell post or anything...

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: balls]
    #3455368 - 12/06/04 03:31 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

balls said:
I didnt mean to make it sound like a farewell post or anything...




Sure man........... You have me buried already :grin:

Yes I am in trouble but the fact is I once made a very solid promise to God that I would not grow Cubies. I did not do what he asked me. And the fact that just as I started getting close to him again thru my talks here. It does seem funny that I would be suffering from such a thing.

You may be right that God in fact does have something to say to me. God has had a very serious plan for me. I was suppose to be one of his great warrior's. Not a rich guy with problems wtih drugs.

It seems that when you do things your own way and not the way God wants. He may in fact get your attention

He has it. :shocked:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455405 - 12/06/04 03:35 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Damn, I hope they caught it in time. Here's another get well soon for you. :laugh:

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OfflineTasty_Smurf_House
Stranger
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Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 8,657
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455452 - 12/06/04 03:42 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

fuck man. try and stay positive. i hope you get through it alright.

yer a good guy.

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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455891 - 12/06/04 05:06 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

very sorry to hear about your illness fucknuckle. i hope you make it through all of this. this thread has really opened my eyes to something i didn't think would even be a concern of mine. you can damn well assure yourself that i'm not going to be taking any chances in the future.

also, if you don't mind me asking, how well is/was your overall immune system working at the time of infection and incubation? i mean, were you exceptionally healthy or unhealthy?


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3455901 - 12/06/04 05:08 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I have just returned from my doctor this morning and I have been found to be suffering from very high levels of Toxic molds.

Differences asside, I wish you the best.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: TODAY]
    #3455953 - 12/06/04 05:16 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Until this happened I was a very healthy person. I very rarely got sick.

In fact a person could say I was a the top of the health game.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleSociety
Mmmm... pizza
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/03/04
Posts: 14,303
Loc: Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3456142 - 12/06/04 05:49 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I don't really know you or believe in a god, but I feel absolutely horrible for you. My thoughts, hopes, and prayers go out to you though. I really hope you get better.


--------------------
Delicious Pizza

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OfflineCatalysis
EtherealEngineer

Registered: 04/23/02
Posts: 1,742
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3456249 - 12/06/04 06:09 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Im sorry to hear of your illness. On the good side, there are many good treatments available if you catch it in a relatively early stage like yourself. It sounds like you are not hospitalized or anything severe so you can probably come away from this without any long term damage. Like you said, let this be a lesson to people that if you are sick and suspect it may be due to your hobby, let the doctor know right away. I will be sending some positive energy your way in my meditation tonight.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Catalysis]
    #3456301 - 12/06/04 06:23 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks

He puts on his catchers mitt..............


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleGnuBobo
Frilly Cuffs Extraordinaire
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 43,754
Loc: Charisma
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3458137 - 12/07/04 12:31 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

This is terrible, man.  I sincerely hope you recover and come out all right in the end.  :laugh:
What caused you to start suspecting mold was the cause?  Like creeping symptoms or marking off all other explanations? 
It would be helpful, I think, for all of this community to learn from your experience and what tipped you off about this. 
Stay strong, man.  Best wishes.  Fuck this parasite up, eh?  :evil:

GB


--------------------
Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!

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Invisiblesui
I love you.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 32,534
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co. Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: GnuBobo]
    #3465927 - 12/08/04 04:52 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Fucknuckle man im sorry i hope things work out for the best. I think you are a good guy, and i allways enjoyed reading your posts. i wish you the best and hope we have many more conversatins here. Get well man.


--------------------

"There is never a wrong note, bend it."
Jimi Hendrix


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OfflineEilya555
GOD with a caseof amnesia
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 28
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3480055 - 12/11/04 12:48 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hey man I hope you feel better. I used to do water damage restoration and mold remediation, and harmful molds will definately fuck you up. Even wearing a space suit and a respirator the mold would still fuck me up, I could feel it hit me like a freight train. The three months I did this type of work I was constantly sick, I had major sinus and respiratory problems. glad I quit that job. get well soon.

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OfflineTasty_Smurf_House
Stranger
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Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 8,657
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3483417 - 12/11/04 08:01 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

so you feelin any better yet?

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InvisibleFucknuckle
Dog Lover

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Tasty_Smurf_House] * 1
    #3491166 - 12/13/04 12:47 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah Man I am feeling better. The doctors found that I was very allergic to some type of unidentified Mold. My lymph Glands are starting to go down. I also have made my bedroom as sterile as I could. My diet as been changed and I have been diagnosed with High Blood pressure. But all in all I am not dying. My body is in recovery and I will be back to normal soon. Heavy Mold exposure can be a bad thing

Life will be a pleasure as it once was :grin:


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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OfflineTasty_Smurf_House
Stranger
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Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 8,657
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3493080 - 12/13/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

glad to hear it man! :smile:

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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Tasty_Smurf_House]
    #3494330 - 12/13/04 08:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

That's great to hear! :sun:

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InvisibleBoom
just a tester
Male
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 11,252
Loc: Cypress Creek
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3494664 - 12/13/04 09:57 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:cheers: :mushroom2:

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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3495237 - 12/14/04 12:00 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

excellent news, get some rest man. glad you'll be back to well soon.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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OfflineboO
Female User Gallery

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 5,364
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3496044 - 12/14/04 05:37 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

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OfflineMycoJunkie
Psilanthropist

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 963
Loc: .4merica
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: boO]
    #3688014 - 01/27/05 10:16 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This is an incredibly valuable thread, therefore I bump it. May nobody make the mistake of smelling mold or any contamination for that matter. If you think it might be fucked, ITS FUCKED! Throw 'em in a trashbag, without opening 'em and get them the hell out of your house.


--------------------
:cussing::whip:

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3688044 - 01/27/05 10:25 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

This is the second case I have read about on these forums of a member getting sick after inhaling (or being around) contaminated cakes. The chances of getting sick from growing is very slim, but the risk is very real. When something contaminates, do not try to save it, do not try to open it, do not try to smell it, simply throw the damn thing away. A doctor visit costs much more than a new set of jars and a funeral is even more expensive.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineUKShroomHunter55
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Seuss]
    #3688340 - 01/27/05 12:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

shit man i have:
extremity jerking,
Headaches,
Slurred speech,
Anxiety/depression - confusion, short term memory problems
Ringing in ears and balance problems.

So do you recon i should go down to the doc. cos i havn't been into mycology for very long (6 months) and have never ingested wild mushrooms, but i have been into contact with many, taking one or two samples of what i though were "actives".

So the thing is do you think that i could have some of these simptons because of mushrooms or maybe just something else?

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: UKShroomHunter55]
    #3688782 - 01/27/05 02:03 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Tell your doctor about it UKShroomHunter. After reading this thread I would be halfway out the door if I noticed these symptoms...

Black mold was found growing on the cielings of several local public schools. It was on the news, kids were getting sicker every day from the mold. First they thought it was the shitty lunch food, then they thought it was the rusted lead water pipes. Only after careful testing did they find black mold was the culprit.


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OfflineMycoJunkie
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3689203 - 01/27/05 03:45 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, never ever ever try to smell anything that looks moldy to see if it is or not. Especially if the supect is any color other than white, or blue (assuming that you bruised the cake).

The contamination forum has some very interesting posts. They make me want to go into (micro)biology.


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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS *DELETED* [Re: MycoJunkie]
    #3689273 - 01/27/05 04:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by oneducktwoducks

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Offlineballs
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3693190 - 01/28/05 11:18 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I noticed that too, but theres at least 1 post, I know I saw it somewhere....

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Invisibleoneducktwoducks
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS *DELETED* [Re: balls]
    #3698280 - 01/29/05 12:22 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

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OfflineArf
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: oneducktwoducks]
    #3698601 - 01/29/05 01:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hey i hope everyones doin well!
i was just wanderin can this kinda thing happen from consuming dried 'shrooms that perhaps werent as dry as they should have been? cause ive got a couple of grams that ive had for a couple of months now and they aint 'cracker dry' there doesnt appear to be any mold on them or anythin but im not 100% what to look out for either
any reccomendations?

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3698675 - 01/29/05 02:13 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

how have you kept them stored?


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OfflineArf
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3698718 - 01/29/05 02:29 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

in a baggie in a drawer

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3698735 - 01/29/05 02:33 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............

They should be fine as long as you kept them in a cool, dry, dark place. I once ate a couple of cubensis that had been sitting in a plastic bag on a shelf in my friend's basement, and I was fine. But you should check them out with a microscope just to be safe.


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Edited by SWEDEN (01/29/05 02:46 PM)

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Offlinesublimistri
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3698763 - 01/29/05 02:39 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Good vibes going your way , get better , I have learned alot from this post , glad i stopped to read it , thanks for the knowledge , 5 shrooms to you. Good Luck.


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Tradelist
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OfflineArf
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: sublimistri]
    #3698869 - 01/29/05 03:10 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

thanks for the advice!
but what should i look for under the microscope?

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3698935 - 01/29/05 03:38 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Check the gills underneath the cap for green or white looking mold. If you see any sort of stalks or fuzzy patches growing, toss the whole bag. What kind of mushrooms are they? Can you get me a closeup shot witha digital camera?


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OfflineArf
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3698972 - 01/29/05 03:51 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

oh yeh they smell a bit like what can only be described as feet, is that normal?

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3698986 - 01/29/05 03:56 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Cubensis usually smell and taste like feet.  It's an aquired taste :grin:

So, can you get me some closeups?  I need to see the cap, gills, and stalk.  If you don't know what kind they are I might be able to ID them for you.  Emphasis on might.  But I can not say for sure whether they are safe to eat or not unless I see them for myself.  Digital camera?


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OfflineArf
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Arf]
    #3699001 - 01/29/05 04:00 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

they are cubensis, but sorry i dont have a camera
sorry, but what u mean by "stalks" can i spot these using my naked eye at all?

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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3699187 - 01/29/05 05:16 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

it looks like fuz with the naked eye, stalks or clumps of grey/white/green stuff under a scope


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Invisibledressel11
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3699208 - 01/29/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

I'll be praying for you.

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Offlineholio1
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3699971 - 01/29/05 08:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

man hope you are doing better now, do you have info on incubation periods and if this stuff naturally fades?

back in october i had some contam'd cakes and i fucking was a dumbass and kept them for a bit to see if the contamination would get overrun and was smelling that nasty shit everyday. black and off white shit it was baaaaaad but i chucked them after a few days i think
at the time i had some coughing and breathing trouble and for about a month after i was often very tired. it subsided though and i obviously can't know if any more recent sickness has been related to that

i honestly do not think that shit is still in me, but it would be good to find out. i don't think the amount of spores i inhaled was so significant but then again i am no expert. i just don't think the sickness would incubate for such a long time before showing prolonged symptoms.

i'm going to look this up, but anyone have any info?

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Offlineaustin_72283
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: holio1]
    #3809406 - 02/21/05 01:06 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

BUMP!


oh shit....


i just read this and i am really scared!

i have...

my knee and my joints hurt
i slur my words ( every day at least once)
i have pain in my stomach short but painful
right now my throat hurts and i am coughing and when i cough it burns
i twitch on occasion ( twitch really bad when i smoke weed)
i have a liver problem ( never checked it out before)


and all this b/c

when ever i had a contamed jar i would take it out and let it sit on my counter and then i would see if it would be fine ... i let it sit in my room for weeks b/c i was discouraged at the failure so after i got some more prints i started up again so i took those nasty jars ( quart sized ) and i took them out about 4 of them and i emptied them out outside in my garden i remember the horrible smell and squinting my eyes and turning my head and i did this on about 2 -3 separate occasions around June .

i just hope I'm paranoid and i just have a case of strep or something but in any case I'm going to go to the doctor on Tuesday and have them check me out. b/c what is happening to me is not normal i.e the stomach pains sudden weight loss i am just scared.

DONT EVER SMELL A CONTAMED JAR OR ANYTHING TO SEE IF IT SMELLS "funky" as they say a lot of the time in the contam forums. WHICH IS WRONG

any word on fucknuckle yet?

crossing fingers

this is a very good post and should be stickied!

Austin


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: austin_72283]
    #3810752 - 02/21/05 11:48 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

SO far he hasn't made any new posts this year. I hope he is alright.


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OfflineSterile
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3811303 - 02/21/05 02:02 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Please make a post fucknuckle!!!!!!I hope you 're fine shroomer!....MAKE THIS POST STICKY MODS,  please

and a question for all of you:

Do you throw away every single jar that gets contams??? Cos i don't but seriously think i sould stop fighting the contams...this is the shitiest news i have ever read on the shroomery, but its a good lesson for every shroomer on this earth.

What about wet spot - sour apple smeelling contams?

Something that might be usefull for anyone with this kind of problem and even prevention from such could be grapefruit seed extract liquid concentrate

I got one called citricidal  and its from a company named Higher Nature  .

It kills 300 bacteria and more than 500 fungus/molds

I use it to strengthen my immune system, if i catch a cold, headaches and many many more situations...is it said to be the "natural antibiotic" from my herbalist doc.

Please people, BE CAREFULL! :heart: 

Anyone who knows anything about fucknuckle please make a post, i am really worried. :frown: I hope he's ok :heart:


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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


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Offlineaustin_72283
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Sterile]
    #3812601 - 02/21/05 05:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

damn i was hoping to get some good news! MODS STIKCY NOW!

austin


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OfflineBuddha1
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3816896 - 02/22/05 12:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Great to hear that you are feeling better. I came across a natural product that may be quite useful for others in similar situations (of course seeing a doctor should always be the first move). Wild Oil of Oregano seems like it may be benificial to anyone exposed to dangerous molds.

check: www.wildoiloforegano.com

I've never used the product myself so I cannot vouch for it but it seems interesting.

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OfflineTerantula
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Buddha1]
    #3827229 - 02/24/05 11:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That's not the first time I've read a post regarding allergic or nasty reactions to fungi, mold or spores, and it should be noted that in larger mushroom plants, that in-depth screening and heath checks are done to make sure that employees don't suffer.

Even if you are not allergic, or have no reaction to such substances, spores have been known to build up in employee lung tissue over time to be as bad as "asbestos", leading to asthma- and emphysema-like symptoms.

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Offlineaustin_72283
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Terantula]
    #3829017 - 02/24/05 06:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

i whent to the doctor and he said that if i was infected that i would have been doubled over a long time ago within 48 hours of inhilation.


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OfflineCaRnAgECaNdYS
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3831432 - 02/25/05 01:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I hope things are going well for you. Sounds like you were feeling better, but we haven't seen you around. I'm still keeping you in my prayers. I've always thought highly of you and believe you can make it through this. :hug:
I hope to see you soon.

~Desiree~:heart:


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InvisibleFurrySheep
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: CaRnAgECaNdY]
    #3913037 - 03/13/05 07:20 PM (19 years, 19 days ago)

man i made the same mistake about a year ago and i have been having some of the same symptoms as you.

fever
chills
sweaty /hands feet
chest pain
alot of sharp pains around my heart
short adominal pains in the lower right part of my stomach
shortness of breath
panic attacks almost everyday
depression
runny nose
bloody stools

doctor said i had a early bacterial infection hemocotosis or something.
the antibiotics arent working.

i have notice a decrease in my mental capacity.

anyway, i hope you get to feeling better. you will be in my thoughts and prayers


ive been to the doctor maybe 100 times in the past year and they cant really find anything. in the past i have had several EKGs done. I had a GI exam and an echocardiogram. They found nothing.


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Edited by FurrySheep (03/13/05 07:24 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: FurrySheep]
    #3924980 - 03/16/05 10:36 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Me too! Doctors can't do shit, I can barely function anymore... :frown:

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #3995289 - 03/31/05 12:51 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Well guys it took me about 4 months of clean air and zero fungus or mold in my diet to fix my problem. It is very important to get your living enviroment as sterial as possiable. Also make damn sure you are not eating any cheese or mold based foods. It takes time to clean your system out. Any way, I was suprized to see this thread still alive. I have not been posting since X-mas.

I will be around more in a few weeks. Later


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3995324 - 03/31/05 01:03 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

We were all worried about you dude! THere have been a few threads about you, all with people asking, is he alright?


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3995340 - 03/31/05 01:06 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Yeah I am fine. I have been working again and got a new project off the ground. No time for conversation the past few months. I will be back my friends


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OfflineSWEDEN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3995500 - 03/31/05 01:42 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Well it's a relief to know you're alright! Welcome back to the Shroomery!


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OfflinePsillyNilly
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3995708 - 03/31/05 02:17 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Im scared now bout this----I havnet experienced any of those symptoms but I have opened some pretty funky lookin jars in my day. Black ones, green, red everything. Its been a few years but how would I know? Ive smelt that shit before as well and sure inhaled contams. Im freakin out now.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4015944 - 04/05/05 05:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This is all psuedo science - there is actually very little evidence that infections with fungi is actually harmful for the body - whether we are talking about candida albicans or mycoplasma.
On the other hand, aspergillus the common green bread mold can infiltrate your lungs and kill you.
But most of the symptoms you have listed sound like common symptoms of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Reactive hypoglycemia/Thyroid disorders.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: PsillyNilly]
    #4015947 - 04/05/05 05:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

We are subject to millions upon millions of fungal spores and bacteria every day - its part of normal human experience. So to expect taht you would suddenly become ill from an exposure to a contaminated jar is unfounded.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS *DELETED* [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4015954 - 04/05/05 05:10 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by bluemeanie

Reason for deletion: none



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InvisibleFurrySheep
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4034526 - 04/09/05 02:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

bluemeanie, Black mold is very dangerous. And has been shown to be lethal.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: FurrySheep]
    #4053128 - 04/14/05 01:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

True - but a true mold infection would attack exclusively the lungs or other body organ (s) - it wouldnt cause a systematic illness that effects purely the neurological systems and blood - this is much more likely caused by a metabolic disorder like CFS or something along those lines. My point is that one should blindly trust doctors who are just guessing on these things. It could make the difference in getting better or staying ill.


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Offlinenonoman
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4068253 - 04/18/05 10:04 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Fucknuckle, great to hear from you and that you're doing better!

Your ordeal sounded scary as hell.


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4081073 - 04/21/05 12:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What is your deal dude?
Why would he lie about any of this?
It seems you never take anything at face value from all the posts I have seen of yours. Are you a doctor bluemeanie, cause you sure as hell throw your intellect around like you are one?

Glad to hear your better, Fucknuckle. :thumbup:


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OfflineRolling
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: mecreateme]
    #4081864 - 04/21/05 03:52 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

i read through the threads and wow...now thats totally cool...being able to fight off something like this...and it all started with a jar...im glad to hear that hes alright after all that...and i would like to take this opportunity to thank him for warning us about this as well...so good luck and i hope this ordeal of yours would be over soon.


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Rolling Wheels
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OfflineJazzMatazz
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Rolling]
    #4094951 - 04/25/05 12:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

IMPORTANT QUESTION:
How long after mold exposer did the symptoms start, and which where the first ones?


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OfflineSHR00MiN
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4250158 - 06/02/05 09:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
'My doctor checked for heart problems........ Nothing

He checked for Cancer......nothing

He checked for some other things and was getting very confused. at least that is what I picked up on.

Then he sat me down and had me describe my life and my every habit and hobby. That is when he realized I may be having a problem with a Mold infection. He has limited experience with this but he is dealing with it.'

Come on mate! What kind of diagnosis is this? its complete bullshit mate! He couldnt find anything wrong with you, so thought... mmm... Ill find something in his life and pretend it is causing some out of control allergic reaction or it has some how parasited the body system.
Unless your immune system is heavily depressed it is very very very unlikely that those symptoms are the result of a mild encounter with a black mold. Im not even aware of any black mold that has been found to be dangerous.

It sounds much more like chronic fatigue syndrome to me. Drink licorice tea every day for two weeks and see how you feel - or get your thyroid checked.





I gotta agree with you man..

As I am VERY happy to hear Fucknuckle is back to normal, I think it was some other illness and, coincidentally, he and the Doc thought it was from the contams and whatnot..


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"Im gone upstairs to fuck ya grandmotha" - George Carlin

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: SHR00MiN]
    #4255392 - 06/04/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Gusy im not trying to pay this guy out, im just trying to point out that the answer that some doctors give you is the easiest one they can find when they dont know why you are sick.
DOnt always accept what they are telling you - your illness sounds quite significant in symptoms. Please look further into this, because if you research fungal infections, they dont give you that kind of symptom diversity. trust me.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #4324354 - 06/22/05 10:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The Point is Blue..................... I am now healthy again.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleBoom
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4324427 - 06/22/05 10:59 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Glad to hear that you're ok :jammingout:

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OfflineJabbawaya

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Boom]
    #4391870 - 07/11/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 8 months ago)

Damn... well at least you're being honest with the doctors. That's the best thing you can do. Good luck, man, I hope all goes well! And thanks for sharing this information with us.


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OfflineFluxburn
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Jabbawaya]
    #4590317 - 08/28/05 06:55 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

so mold is toxic... I have a bunch of green mold in my composting thing and I never get sick from it


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ABSTRACT ART (Mine) http://nathanbelomy.com

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InvisibleSlavesoul
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fluxburn]
    #4644931 - 09/11/05 04:10 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Am I at risk if I eat oyster, bella, chanterlle, morel, shiitake, and button mushrooms?
I eat those a lot.
With cheese, and snow peas.
Am I f000ked?

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Offlinejdy83_02
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4651833 - 09/12/05 06:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

holy shit dude i hope everything turns out all right thanks for the warning

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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #4687344 - 09/20/05 06:54 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

oh man i am so sorry.

Heres what i think you should do right now:

take a few weeks off work and make all of that "me time"

drink tons of water and green tea, eat as well as you possibly can, rest lots, do healing visualizations and affirmations, meditate etc... just dedicate absolutely every ounce of your being to healing and recovery. Seriously. this is your life were talking about. Take all the time you need to recuperate.

God bless and heal you

peace

woops looks like your better now. awesome...

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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Everything I post is fiction.

Edited by Moonshoe (09/20/05 06:56 PM)

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Invisiblecateyes
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Moonshoe]
    #4722488 - 09/27/05 09:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

i was exposed to a pathogenic mold in a research enviorment some time ago... it was quite an experience but i did get better... i was prescibed diflucan for one week and then put on a statin medication for a brief/intermitant period. i was treated by a pathologist who now practices integrative medicine here in nj usa. my immune system was stimulated by following a doable diet, vitamin supplements and other natural medicine protocols. there may be integrative health care facilities in your area. if you need more info please feel free to message me. i could ask my doctor if there is someone in your area he is familiar with...

peace

cateyes

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Offlinecanid
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5002946 - 12/01/05 03:23 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

i'm glad to hear you are well now. i don't know you but my love goes to you.

be careful with your contams people.


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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: canid]
    #5453938 - 03/29/06 03:45 AM (18 years, 4 days ago)

Jesus Christ.. that was an intense read. Good to hear everyones ok.. It really opened up my eyes to the risks of mold.


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Shroomery Composition Contest

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Offline76degrees
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Toddo]
    #5761584 - 06/17/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I found some good info on Mycotoxicosis:

http://www.mold-survivor.com/symptoms.html


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The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: 76degrees]
    #5788421 - 06/25/06 01:52 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Fungal infections are very nasty, not because they are specially lethal but because they tend to be misdiagnosed.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6078394 - 09/19/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

because of this thread I just threw away 11 jars that were sitting in my incubator that did not colonize (spores reached thermal breakdown). They smelled kind of funny but none looked contaminated, none were opened. Probably just smelled wierd from too much water in them but either way thats the last chance I take with contams.

This stuff from EvolutionSuperfood.com might help you get healthy again quicker, just thought I'd pass it on to you as it works wonders for me.


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-==Classic Cakes Log==-

Edited by ButterWeasels (09/19/06 02:49 PM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: ButterWeasels]
    #6079065 - 09/19/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Glad to hear nobody died! I wont be taking any chances, I'll tell you that man!


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Dave's not here!

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Offlineck10n3
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: AnthonyStoner]
    #6089372 - 09/22/06 04:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Man, FN I am very thankful you got better. I know how shitty being sick is!

I had a sore throat last wensday, and over this past weekend I got some fieldies. I went to the hospital on Sunday and they told me I had bronchitis. Well I looked at the shrooms on Monday and half of them were starting to break out in mold. I let them sit out in my room for awhile, mind you still in ziplock bags. After a few hours I decided to move them all into another room because they smelled so bad. Well the antibiotics they gave me Sunday did not seem to be working at all. I have been messing around with moldy shrooms lately, and this thread is freaking me out. Yesterday I went into the health center near me because my symptoms were much worse. I was prescribed new antibiotics on Wensday and they do seem to be working... but do you guys think I should be worried about something similar?!? AHHH! :frown:


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"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

Edited by ck10n3 (09/22/06 11:54 AM)

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Offlineck10n3
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: ck10n3]
    #6128880 - 10/03/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well I am not sick with that. Thank god. It took 3 weeks whatever I had though. <3


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: ck10n3]
    #6154035 - 10/10/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I am glad to see this sticky thread has been posted for so long as it contains a ton of good info and a few jabs of bad...................But the point is not to take contams lightly. Glad your OK


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Offlinecurenado
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle] * 1
    #6194190 - 10/21/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I have not had a mushroom cultivation related case, however I did have a case earlier this year of a 27 male who had contracted something similar cleaning out old refrigerators for a living. It caused large pustles to swell closing off his throat. One run of myco's and he has never had the problem again. If you are struggling with an intractable mycosis or unidentifiable fungal/mold condition I would like to hear from you. I am interested in the rising of these pathological strains, and improving treatment about 100%.
Thanks!
DrKarlBuchanan@yahoo.com


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."

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OfflineLearner
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6194472 - 10/21/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fucknuckle said:
I wish it was that simple. The fact is I may be in some real trouble. I have allowed this stuff to fester in my body for many months. Mold can in fact kill. Heavy intake of Black Mold spores is the most likly culprit at this time. But I have many more tests to take. It will be awhile before I know the full extent of what has happened.








Everyone else............

I want to clarify a few things. I did not get this sick from a small jar with a small patch of containment's. This is what happened.


I had 24 quart jars packed with substrate and ready to go into the PC. But the next day I was required to go down state and handle a serious problems at my shop. I did not return for a week and in the heat of my troubles just forgot about the damn jars.


So when I found then they were packed full PACKED FULL of the most vile shit you can imagine. Pink, green, yellow and black freaky looking stuff. So instead of throwing them out I scraped them clean. Oh yeah I wore a painters mask..................


But the fact is I was in a very bad mood that day and my wife was yelling at me and shit was not good. So in the bad mood I just keep scraping and being very angry. I should have just bought new jars.


Anyway I exposed myself to who knows what.


And sadly this was not the first time I had been so foolish. About 3 months before that I had a similar experience with some quart jars under my back porch. I was going to toss them but they had a bunch of Shrooms growing in the top of the Jars. Fascinated that Shrooms had grown in very contaminated Jars with the lids on under my porch. I opened them and examined the shrooms. I did throw away all the jars and the shrooms. But i remember ho bad they smelled.


If you can smell the contaims you have introduced them into your body.


So I have exposed myself to very large quantities of the NASTIES twice in the past year.


They fester in your organs and glands. They grow and it takes awhile for them to start trouble. And if like me just blew the symptoms off as something else they just keep festering and growing inside you.


Anyway......... I hope everyone gets it.


More to follow...........




Hello to you
I am doing research on fungi, mycotoxins and how it affects the health of people. It has very serious effect and mycotoxins are highly toxic.
But I wanted to tell you that it does not only derive from mold on food... it can start growing inside your house if there is some dampness or leakages somewhere. Sometimes it even happens without people seeing it, because it can happen under floors, inside walls etc.
This highly toxic poison can actually go on to cause very serious illnesses such as MS (http://www.mercola.com/2003/jul/19/multiple_sclerosis.htm), Alzheimers, cancers and even death.

Please get info from following websites:
http://www.mold-survivor.com/
http://www.mold-help.org/
www.moldwarriors.com
www.chronicneurotoxins.com

You can get a lot of help from those sites.

Also you need to know that there is a medicine that can help clean out the toxins, its called Questran.
But it is most necessary to change your eating habits, you need to learn more into that. And it might help you to go on regular fasts (only water for a few days) -it helps the body clean out toxins.

Hope you will do better and will learn about nutrition to help you regain your health.

L.

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OfflineLearner
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6194493 - 10/21/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
This is all psuedo science - there is actually very little evidence that infections with fungi is actually harmful for the body - whether we are talking about candida albicans or mycoplasma.
On the other hand, aspergillus the common green bread mold can infiltrate your lungs and kill you.
But most of the symptoms you have listed sound like common symptoms of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Reactive hypoglycemia/Thyroid disorders.




It is actually not true that there is very little evidence of harmful effects on the body from mold mycotoxins. The evidence is all over the place, more and more scientists and doctors are making research on this subject and more and more evidence is coming to us. You just have to do a quick search on scientific databases to get loads of info.

Look at the websites I listed above. There is loads of info on them... but there is much much more. The evidence is actually becoming overwhelming in that last few years.


See this review of research also made of several experts:

Adverse Health Effects of Indoor Molds

LUKE CURTIS MS, CIH, 1 ALLAN LIEBERMAN MD, 2 MARTHA STARK MD, 3 WILLIAM REA MD 4 AND MARSHA VETTER MD, P H D 5

1School of Public Health, University of Illinois at Chicago, Illinois, 2Center for Occupational and Environmental Health, North Charleston, South Carolina,
3 Harvard University, Newton Center, Massachusetts, 4Environmental Health Center, Dallas, Texas, 5Environmental Health Center, Hoffman Estates, Illinois, USA


Abstract
Purpose: It has long been known that eating moldy food is hazardous, and airborne Aspergillus and other fungi can cause life-threatening illnesses in immuno-compromised patients. However, the possible health risks of indoor mold exposure in immunocompetent humans are controversial. This literature review examines the health effects of indoor airborne exposure to mold.

Design: Literature review.

Materials and Methods: This review was conducted by searching PubMed and other medical databases, as well as reading recent conference reports.
Results: Many studies link exposure to damp or moldy indoor conditions to increased incidence and/or severity of respiratory problems such as asthma, wheezing and rhinosinusitis. Stachybotrys produces trichothecenes and other mycotoxins, which can inhibit protein synthesis and induce hemorrhaging disorders. Indoor mold exposure can alter immunological factors and produce allergic reactions. Several studies have indicated that indoor mold exposure can alter brain blood flow, autonomic nerve function, brain waves and worsen concentration, attention, balance and memory. Failure to perform the appropriate objective evaluations on patients may account for the commonly held belief that indoor mold exposure poses no significant health risks to immunocompetent humans.

Conclusions: Exposure to high levels of indoor mold can cause injury to and dysfunction of multiple organs and systems, including respiratory, hematological, immunological, and neurological systems, in immunocompetent humans.

Keywords: mold, fungi, mycotoxin, allergy, indoor air quality, asthma, neurotoxicity, lung hemorrhage, Aspergillus, Penicillium, Cladosporium, Alternaria, Stachybotrys.

INTRODUCTION
In recent years, public attention has become increasingly focused on human health concerns linked with mold (fungi) inside homes and workplaces. Indoor airborne mold exposure has been associated with adverse human health effects in multiple organs and body systems, including respiratory, nervous, immune, hematological and dermatological systems. Indoor mold exposure can also lead to life-threatening systemic infections in immunocompromised patients. A qualitative systematic literature review was undertaken in order to examine and JNE (gamma) JNE51751.3d 23/11/04 18:04:51 Rev 7.51n/W (Jan 20 2003) The Charlesworth Group, Wakefield +44(0)1924 369598 101014 Journal of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine (September 2004) 14(3), 1—14 ISSN 1359-0847 print/ISSN 1364-6907 online/02/010071-02
# 2004 Taylor & Francis Ltd DOI: 10.1080/13590840400010318 appraise the current state of knowledge about indoor mold-linked health effects, and to summarize the available evidence for the use by health professionals. Physicians, in particular, may encounter patients with common symptoms occurring in particular environments, and understanding the potential for mold-related health effects is key to the complete investigation of those environments. Physicians and industrial hygienists may be asked to contribute reports to assist the courts in settling suits. In 2002, an estimated 10,000 mold-related cases were pending in US courts [1]. Also in 2002, the insurance industry paid out $2 billion in mold-related claims in Texas alone [2]. Literature was reviewed using the peer-reviewed database, and from recent conferences on indoor molds. The levels of evidence available for each topic varied from level I (from at least one properly randomized controlled trial) through level II (from trials without randomization, exceptionally convincing uncontrolled experiments, cohort or case—control studies), to level III (opinion of respected authorities based on clinical experience, descriptive studies, or reports of expert committees) [3]. [Return to MH]


MOLDS IN THE INDOOR ENVIRONMENT
Fungi (or molds) are ubiquitous in both indoor and outdoor environments and are frequently dispersed by airborne spores. Mold and mold spores require moisture and a
food source, such as cellulose or decaying food, to grow [4]. As mold spores swell with water and grow, they elongate, forming balloon-like protuberances (hyphae), which secrete digestive enzymes and mycotoxins. The fungi then digest the food source to support their growth. About 100,000 fungal species have already been identified; in fact, fungi are estimated to comprise an astounding 25% of the world's biomass [5]. Various surveys of homes in North America and Europe have reported that visible mold and/or water damage are common, found in 23—98% of all homes examined [6—9]. There are no official standards at this time for indoor airborne fungi concentrations. However, indoor fungal levels above a range of 150—1000 colony-forming units per cubic meter of air (cfu m 2 3 ) are considered to be
sufficient to cause human health problems [7, 10—12]. Numerous reports have documented that indoor air can be contaminated with fungal spore levels well in excess of 1000 cfu m 2 3 [13—20]. The most common indoor fungal genera collected are Cladosporium, Aspergillus and Penicillium [13—20]. Alternaria, Stachybotrys, Rhizopus, Mucor, Wallemia, Trichoderma, Chaetomium, yeasts, Botrytis, Epicoccum and Fusarium species are often found indoors as well [13—20]. [Return to MH]


MOLD-RELATED HEALTH SYMPTOMS
Patients have been reporting multiple ill health effects linked to exposures to mold. Studies of more than 1600 patients suffering ill effects associated with fungal exposure were presented at one meeting in Dallas in 2003 (21st Annual Symposium of Man and His Environment, Dallas, Texas, 19—22 June 2003) [21—25].
To cite a few studies: Lieberman [21] examined 48 heavily mold-exposed patients who had the following health problems: muscle and/or joint pain (71%), fatigue/weakness (70%), neurocognitive dysfunction (67%), sinusitis (65%), headache (65%), gastrointestinal problems (58%), shortness of breath (54%), anxiety/depression/irritability (54%), vision problems (42%), chest tightness (42%), insomnia (40%), dizziness (38%), numbness/tingling (35%), laryngitis (35%), nausea (33%), skin rashes (27%), tremors (25%) and heart palpitations (21%). Rea et al.'s study [23] of 150 heavily indoor mold-exposed patients found the following health problems: fatigue (100%), rhinitis (65%), memory loss and other neuropsychiatric problems (46%), respiratory problems (40%), fibromyalgia (29%), irritable 2 bowel syndrome (25%), vasculitis (4.7%) and angioedema (4.0%). These clinical reports suggest that there can be multisystem adverse effects of airborne mold. All reported cases had environmental mold exposure consistent with toxic mold exposure. [Return to MH]


MECHANISMS OF MOLD-RELATED HEALTH EFFECTS

Fungi can exert ill health effects by three major mechanisms: allergy, toxicity, and infection.

Allergy and Irritation
At least 70 allergens have been well characterized from spores, vegetative parts and small particles from fungi (0.3 mm and smaller) [26, 27]. A review of 17 studies revealed that 6—10% of the general population and 15—50% of atopics had immediate skin sensitivity to fungi [28]. Fungi produce beta glucans, which have irritant properties [29].

Toxicity
Fungi produce a wide variety of toxic chemicals called mycotoxins [4, 30, 31]. Some common mycotoxins include: aflatoxins—very potent carcinogens and hepatotoxins, produced by some Aspergillus species; ochratoxins—nephrotoxic and carcinogenic, produced by some Aspergillus and Penicillium; sterigmatocystin—immunosuppressive and a liver carcinogen, produced by Aspergillus species, especially A. versicolor; trichothecenes—produced primarily by Stachybotrys and Fusarium species and have been reported to inhibit protein synthesis and cause hemorrhage and vomiting. Fungi also produce beta glucans, which have immunological effects [32]. The smell of molds comes primarily from volatile organic compounds [33]. Adverse human and animal effects from mycotoxin-contaminated foodstuffs have been well recognized since the early twentieth century [30, 34], but the pathway of mycotoxin injury through inhalation is questioned [35]. Because it is unethical to conduct controlled studies on humans with inhaled mycotoxin exposure, only controlled animal exposures and human cohort and case—control studies can be carried out. The literature reveals that significant amounts of mycotoxins (including ochratoxin, sterigmatocystin and trichothecenes) are present in indoor dust [36—39] and dust or fungal particles less than 10 mm in diameter are respirable, thus allowing absorption of mycotoxins through the lungs [31, 34, 40, 41]. [Return to MH]

Patients exposed to indoor Stachybotrys have been found to have measurable blood levels of the Stachybotrys hemorrhagic toxin stachylysin [42]. Levels of trichothecene mycotoxins in urine have also been found in significantly higher levels in patients exposed to high indoor fungal levels as opposed to an unexposed control group [43]. Blood ochratoxin levels have been found to be significantly higher in food industry workers exposed to airborne ochratoxin vs. unexposed controls [39]. These findings support an inhalation pathway for entry of mycotoxins into the body. [Return to MH]

Infection
Fungi such as Candida, Histoplasmosis, Cryptococcus, Blastomyces and Coccidioides can infect immunocompetent people [44]. Fungi such as Trichophyton, Candida and Malasezia commonly cause minor skin infections in  immunocompetent humans [45]. Serious infections by such fungi as Candida, Aspergillus and Pneumocystis mostly involve severely immunocompromised patients [45—47]. In recent years, the incidence of life-threatening infections in immunocompromised patients from Aspergillus and other common serious infections by such fungi as Candida, Aspergillus and Pneumocystis mostly involve severely immunocompromised patients [45—47]. In recent years, the incidence of life-threatening infections in immunocompromised patients from Aspergillus and other common3 fungi has been growing rapidly [48, 49]. Invasive aspergillosis is very common among immunocompromised patients, with the following reported incidence rates: lung transplants: 17—26%; allogenic bone marrow transplants: 5—15%; acute leukemia: 5—24%; heart transplants: 2—13% [50—51]. Even with strong anti-fungal drugs and intense hospital
treatment, mortality rates from invasive aspergillosis range from 50 to 99% in the immunocompromised [52, 53]. [Return to MH]

SAMPLING FOR MOLD EXPOSURE
Indoor fungal sampling is most commonly performed by measuring airborne levels of viable (culturable) or total (viable and non-viable) spores [54, 55]. Some of the airborne viable sampling methods, such as Andersen samplers, collect air for only a few minutes. Settle plates are an inexpensive method to obtain a semi-quantitative measure of indoor airborne fungi levels. Viable and non-viable airborne spore counts can vary considerably over a period of minutes, so air sampling over several periods of time may be necessary to accurately characterize airborne fungal spore levels [54, 55]. However, airborne fungi measurements fail to take into consideration mold contamination in dust or surfaces (often visible to the naked eye) and mycotoxins in air, dust and on surfaces [54, 56]. Therefore,
testing settled dust for fungi and mycotoxins has been recommended [54, 55]. Other techniques, such as polymerase chain reaction (PCR), enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA), and measurement of fungal volatile organic compounds, polysaccharides, ergosterol and beta glucans, have also been found to be useful in assaying indoor environments for molds, their allergens and mycotoxins [54]. [Return to MH]


INDOOR MOLD EXPOSURE AND HEALTH EFFECTS IN BODY SYSTEMS

Respiratory System
Many epidemiological studies have noted that residential exposure to molds and/or chronic dampness can increase asthma/wheezing incidence or morbidity in both children and adults [7—9, 57—70]. Asthma and related conditions are very common in the USA, with an overall prevalence of about 5.4% among all age groups and incidences as high as 27% in inner city children [71]. Studies with infants have reported that higher fungal exposures are associated with more wheezing, coughing and respiratory illness [72, 73]. Higher indoor beta glucan levels have been associated with significantly higher levels of chest tightness and joint pain
[74]. Non-industrial occupational mold exposure has been reported to be associated with significantly higher levels of asthma, sinusitis, irritated skin and eyes, and chronic fatigue [75—79]. One study found that patients exposed to high indoor fungal levels had significantly lower lung function than unexposed controls [24]. Higher outdoor fungal concentrations have been linked to higher asthma death rates [80] and higher asthma incidence [81—83] in children or young adults. Challenge exposures with Penicillium and Alternaria extracts equivalent to high outdoor levels of fungi were noted to severely lower lung function in asthmatics [84]. Skin sensitivity to Alternaria has been linked to much higher risk (odds ratio 190, 95% confidence interval 6.5—6.536, pv0.0001) of respiratory arrest [85]. Various epidemiological studies have associated skin sensitivity to common indoor fungi and higher asthma incidence or severity [86—90] and higher rates of sinusitis
[91]. Airborne fungal exposure is known to cause bronchopulmonary aspergillosis and hypersensitivity pneumonitis, and can cause sinusitis [92, 93]. An estimated 14% of the US population suffers from rhinosinusitis and related conditions [94]. Allergic fungal sinusitis was diagnosed on the basis of fungal growth in nasal secretions and the presence of allergic mucin in 93% of 101 consecutive patients undergoing sinus surgery [94]. Another study was able to recover and culture fungi from the sinuses of 56% of 45 patients undergoing endoscopic sinus surgery for chronic rhinosinusitis [95]. A long-term cohort study of 639 patients with allergic fungal sinusitis demonstrated that remedial steps taken to reduce fungal exposure (by utilizing, for example, air filters, ionizers, moisture control and anti-microbial nasal sprays) significantly reduced rhinosinusitis and improved nasal mucosa morphology [22]. This study concluded that failure to reduce airborne fungi levels to less than four per hour on a settle plate failed to resolve the sinusitis [22]. Although, historically, anti-fungal drugs have generally not been recommended for the treatment of fungal sinusitis [92, 93], recent observational studies have found beneficial effects of oral and nasal medication for sinusitis patients [22, 96]. Several studies have linked residential exposure to various fungi with hypersensitivity pneumonitis [97—99].[Return to MH]

Hematological Effects
Exposure to high indoor levels of Stachybotrys, Aspergillus and other fungi has been epidemiologically associated with infant lung hemorrhage [100—104]. Although questions were raised after this association was discovered [105], it meets many epidemiological criteria for causality [106]. Acute infant pulmonary hemorrhage can be rapidly fatal; when the infant survives, lung blood vessel damage is present and deposits of hemosiderin will remain in the lung macrophages and can be seen in tissue obtained during bronchoscopy [101]. Stachybotrys fungi produce a wide range of trichothecene mycotoxins (including satratoxins and T2), several roridin epimers, verrucarin J and B and hemolysin [31, 103]. A hemorrhagic protein called stachylysin has been isolated from Stachybotrys collected from
homes of infants with lung hemorrhage [107, 108] and from serum of patients with residential Stachybotrys exposure [42]. It is hypothesized that infants with their rapidly growing lungs are more susceptible to the toxic effects of Stachybotrys mycotoxins [109]. Studies with Stachybotrys-exposed adults have noted a significantly higher incidence of health conditions such as wheezing, skin and eye irritation, 'flu-like symptoms and chronic fatigue [110]. Stachybotrys has been isolated from the lungs of a child with pulmonary hemosiderosis [111]. A case study was presented of 16-month-old twins in a mold-infested home, one of whom died of pulmonary hemosiderosis [112]. High levels of trichothecene mycotoxins were found in the lungs and liver of the dead infant, while high IgG levels to Stachybotrys and IgM
levels to satratoxin and trichothecenes were found in the serum of the surviving infant. Environmental sampling in the twins' home found high levels of satratoxin as well as high levels of spores from Stachybotrys, Aspergillus versicolor and Penicillium [112]. [Return to MH]

Immune System
Some studies have reported that indoor fungi-exposed patients have higher serum levels of IgG, IgA and IgM antibodies to common fungi, trichothecenes and satratoxins [113—115]. IgG antibodies to nine common indoor fungi were significantly higher in subjects with sinusitis vs. non-sinusitis subjects in a moldy school [116]. Other studies have noted no significant increases in fungal IgG [117, 118] or fungal IgE [113] in fungi-exposed patients. Indoor fungal exposure has been associated with altered levels of T4, T8 and natural killer cells and higher levels of autoantibodies [23, 25, 119, 120]. Occupants of homes with high Indoor glucan exposure had a lower proportion of cytotoxic t-cells (CD8zSF61z) and higher secretion of tumor necrosis factor than occupants of homes with lower levels of beta glucans [121]. Studies of animals given such common mycotoxins as aflatoxins, ochratoxins and trichothecenes orally showed considerable immune impairment, including depression
of T cells, B cells and macrophages [122]. Human cell line studies have also found that many mycotoxins can suppress T-cell, B-cell and natural killer cell activity at serum concentrations similar to those found in indoor mold-exposed patients [123]. Central Nervous System Two case series of 48 and 150 mold-exposed patients found significant fatigue and weakness in 70—100% of cases, and neurocognitive dysfunction including memory loss, irritability, anxiety and depression in over 40% of the patients [21, 23]. Numbness, tingling and tremor were also found in a significant number of patients [21, 23]. These signs and symptoms have been described as classic manifestations of neurotoxicity [124]. A study of 43 mold-exposed patients found that they performed significantly worse than 202 controls on many neuropsychiatric tests, including balance sway speed, blinking reflex, color perception, reaction times and left grip strength (pv0.0001) [125]. Quantitative
electroencephalogram (qEEG) studies in 182 patients with documented mold exposure also noted significant alterations in brain waves, including hypoactivation of the frontal cortex and narrowed frequency bands [126]. Higher levels of mold exposure (longer time in mold-infested area, presence of Stachybotrys or higher cfu m
air) were associated with significantly more abnormal qEEGs as well as significantly worse scores of concentration and motor and verbal skills in these 182 patients [126]. A triple-headed SPECT brain scan revealed neurotoxic patterns in 26 of 30 (87%) mold-exposed patients [127]. An iriscorder study of autonomic nervous function in 60 mold-exposed patients found that 95% had abnormal autonomic responses of the pupil compared with the population reference range
[23]. Visual contrast sensitivity studies were often abnormal in indoor mold-exposed patients [23]. Additional studies have reported that mold-exposed patients do significantly worse on tests of attention, balance, reaction time, verbal recall, concentration, memory, and finger tapping compared with the general population reference range [24, 128, 129]. [Return to MH]

Most of these patients also experienced many health problems, including chronic fatigue, headaches, insomnia and decreased balance, concentration and attention. Studies of indoor mold-exposed children and adults found significantly more neurophysiological abnormalities vs. controls, including abnormal EEGs and abnormal brainstem, visual and somatosensory evoked potentials [25, 130, 131]. Lieberman [21] presented a case series of 12 patients who developed tremors following
documented heavy indoor mold exposure. Numerous articles have reported domestic dogs developing tremors following ingestion of moldy food [132—134]. Territrem b, a mycotoxin produced by the common fungus Aspergillus terreus, has been shown to be an irreversible binder and inhibitor of acetylcholinesterase [135].

Renal System (nýru)
It is known that ochratoxin-contaminated food is nephrotoxic [136, 137]. Indoor airborne exposure to ochratoxin may also be nephrotoxic. In a case report of a family presenting with increasing thirst/urination, lethargy, and skin rash, a considerable amount of ochratoxin was found in their house dust. The family recovered after moving to another home [36]. [Return to MH]

Reproductive System
The literature suggests a relationship between heavy airborne fungal exposure and reproductive dysfunction. Kristensen et al. [138, 139] reported that airborne mycotoxin exposures in Norwegian grain farmers was significantly related to higher rates of pre-term deliveries, late-term miscarriages and higher rates of endometrial and ovarian endocarcinoma. The veterinary literature finds a strong association between mycotoxtins in feedstuffs and reproductive problems [140].

Diabetes
There is a great deal of evidence that links environmental factors to the triggering of type 1 diabetes. Exposure to viruses, bacteria and mycotoxins such as alloxan, streptozatocin and L-asparginase has been linked to the development of type 1 diabetes in animals and humans [141—143]. Lieberman [21] reported that in a single year, five of his patients developed type 1 diabetes following documented heavy indoor mold exposure.

DIAGNOSIS AND MANAGEMENT OF POTENTIALLY MOLD-RELATED HEALTH PROBLEMS

A careful medical and environmental history is an essential first step in evaluating a patient for mold-related health problems [144—147]. Particular attention should be paid to any history of exposure to visible mold and/or water damage at the home or workplace. Environmental sampling for viable spores, total spores, and mycotoxins in the air and dust can provide important exposure information. For a helpful overview of sampling methods, see references [54, 148, 149]. For an informative guide to the classification, identification and biology of common indoor fungi, see reference [4]. Several good guides exist for the prevention and remediation of indoor fungi problems [144, 148—151]. For patients suspected of having substantial fungal exposure, a battery of sophisticated laboratory tests has been developed: a basic metabolic panel to test for several important parameters (including electrolytes, blood sugar, liver and kidney status); measurement of antibodies to molds and mycotoxins in serum [113, 114]; immune tests for autoantibodies, complement, gamma globulins and lymphocyte panels [120]; urine and blood testing for mycotoxins [43]; visual contrast sensitivity tests; and pupillometry and heart rate variation to assist in the evaluation of autonomic nervous system function. The use of standard neuropsychological test batteries [23, 128—130], EEG and brain imaging techniques such as SPECT and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) can be very helpful tools in documenting neurological damage [25,125, 127, 131, 145].

Pulmonary function tests are also useful for patients with respiratory symptoms [24, 124]. Failure to perform objective evaluations to access system or organ dysfunction account for the presently accepted position that airborne mold exposures have no significant adverse effects [35]. If end-stage organ damage
is suspected, consultation with a specialist may be useful. Other common indoor environmental exposures should also be considered as a potential
source of health problems. Common non-fungal indoor environmental factors include poor ventilation, carbon monoxide from faulty heat sources, leaking natural gas, pesticides, wood smoke, second-hand tobacco smoke, petrochemicals, such as cleaners/building materials/solvents, formaldehyde from outgassing carpets, building materials, bacteria, and allergens from the fur, feathers, saliva and excrement of common household animals such as cockroaches, dust mites, cats, dogs, mice, rats, caged birds, and pigeons. Exposure to ozone, second-hand tobacco smoke, cockroach allergens, formaldehyde (in aspartame), and viral infections have been noted to have a synergistic effect with fungal exposure to worsen asthma and rhinitis [152—156]. The most important part of treatment for mold-exposed patients, symptomatic or not, is avoidance of fungal exposure and remediation of mold contamination in the home and workplace. Any water leaks and damage from flooded or damp areas should be rectified immediately. Non-porous surfaces such as floors and walls that have visible mold growth should be cleaned. Porous waterlogged materials like carpet and furniture should be discarded. Control of humidity is important to control mold growth. The use of air conditioners and dehumidifiers can significantly reduce summertime indoor airborne mold concentrations [13, 157]. HEPA air filters can also significantly reduce indoor airborne fungi concentrations [158]. For cleaning severe indoor water or mold problems, the use of protective equipment like face masks and/or the use of a professional remediation firm may be essential [148—151]. [Return to MH]

Environmental control plays a key role in preventing Aspergillus infections. Several studies have linked hospital construction work to increased rates of invasive aspergillosis [159—162]. Environmental controls such as using HEPA filters, sealing rooms, regular cleaning of rooms, and using anti-fungal copper-8-quionolate paint have been shown to both significantly reduce airborne levels of Aspergillus and significantly reduce rates of invasive aspergillosis in immunocompromised hospital patients [158, 160—165]. Other recent research has indicated that a large number of Aspergillus spores can spread through water supplies [166] and that cleaning shower facilities can significantly lower airborne levels of Aspergillus [167]. [Return to MH]

Use of sublingual or fungal immunotherapy by injection has been shown to be beneficial to some patients sensitized to common indoor molds such as Alternaria and Cladosporium herbarium [168, 169]. Some studies with laboratory animals suggest that a high-quality diet with adequate antioxidant vitamins, selenium, phytochemicals, methionine and total protein can reduce the harmful effects of food mycotoxins [170, 171].


SUMMARY
There is an accumulated weight of evidence linking indoor airborne mold and/or mycotoxin exposures to multisystem adverse human health effects. A history of new
neurocognitive symptoms occurring in patients soon after heavy mold exposure, accompanied by objective neuropsychological findings in such patients, adds considerably to the weight of evidence from animal studies, epidemiological research, and case series. Health care professionals, building managers, homeowners and the general public need to be much more aware of the potential adverse health effects of high indoor fungal exposures and the need for proper building construction, maintenance, and remediation of dampness to prevent such effects. Potentially mold-related illnesses need to be considered in differential diagnoses, and careful exposure histories taken. Prompt removal from exposure to fungal contamination remains the treatment of choice, with some evidence that immunotherapy and nutritional support are also useful. Indoor airborne mold particles can be irritative to the respiratory tract, and fungal spores, antigens, volatile organic compounds, and mycotoxins can be absorbed through the respiratory route to provoke injury by the mechanisms of allergy, toxicity, and infection.




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[102] Etzel R, Montana E, Sorenson W et al. Acute pulmonary hemorrhage in infants associated with exposure to Stachybotrys atra and other fungi. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 1998; 152: 757—62.
[103] Vesper S, Dearborn D, Yike I, Sorenson W, Haugland R. Hemolysis, toxicity and randomly amplified polymorphic DNA analysis of Stachybotrys chartarum strains. Appl Environ Microbiol 1999; 65(7): 3175—81.
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[110] Johanning E, Biagini R, Hull D, Morey P, Jarvis B, Landsbergis P. Health and immunology study following exposure to toxigenic fungi (Stachybotrys chartarum) in a water-damaged office environment. Int Arch Environ Health 1996; 68: 207—18.
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[113] Vojdani A, Campbell A, Kashanian A, Vojdani E. Antibodies against molds and mycotoxins following exposure to toxigenic fungi in water-damaged building. Arch Environ Health 2003; 58(6): 324—36.
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[115] Savilahti R, Uitti J, Laippala P, Hussman T, Reiman M. Immunoglobulin G antibodies of children exposed to microorganisms in a water-damaged school. Pediatr Allergy Immunol 2002; 13(6): 438—42.
[116] Patovirta RL, Reiman M, Husman T, Haverinen U, Toivola M, Nevalainen A. Mould specific IgG antibodies connected with sinusitis in teachers of a mould damaged school: a 2 year follow up study. Int J Occup Med Environ Health 2003; 16(3): 221—30.
[117] Taskinen TM, Laitinen S, Nevalainen A et al. Immunoglobulin G antibodies to moulds in school- children from moisture problem schools. Allergy 2002; 57(1): 9—16.
[118] Malkin R, Martinez K, Marinovich V, Wilcox T, Wall D, Biagini R. The relationship between symptoms and IgG and IgE antibodies in an office environment. Environ Res 1998; 76(2): 85—93.
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[121] Beijer L, Thorn J, Rylander R. Mould exposure at home relates to inflammatory markers in blood. Eur Resp J 2003; 21(2): 317—22.
[122] Bondy G, Pestka J. Immunomodulation by fungal toxins. J Toxicol Environ Health B 2000; 3(2): 109—43.
[123] Berek L, Petri IB, Msterhazy A, Teren J, Molnar J. Effects of mycotoxins on human immune functions in vitro. Toxicol In Vitro 2001; 15(1): 25—30.
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[125] Gray M, Kilburn K, Crago R. Molds, mycotoxins and public health: summary of 195 patients treated collaboratively. Presented at the American Public Health Association (APHA) Meeting, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 11 November 2002.
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[131] Anyanwu E, Campbell A, Vojdani A. Neurophysiological effects of chronic indoor environmental toxic mold exposure on children. Sci World J 2003; 3(4): 281—90.
[132] Boysen SR, Rozanski EA, Chan DL, Grobe TL, Fallon MJ, Rush J. Tremorgenic mycotoxicosis in four dogs from a single household. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2002; 221(10): 1441—4.
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[134] Naude TW, O'Brien OM, Rundberget T, McGregor AD, Roux C, Flaoyen A. Tremorogenic neuromycotoxicosis in 2 dogs ascribed to ingestion of penitrem A and possibly roquefortine in rice contaminated with Penicillium crustosum. J S Afr Vet Assoc 2002; 73(4): 211—5.
[135] Chen JW, Luo YL, Hwang MJ, Peng FC, Ling KH. Territrem B. a tremorgenic mycotoxin that inhibits acetylcholinesterase with a noncovalent yet irreversible binding mechanism. J Biol Chem 1999; 274(49): 34916—23.
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[137] Castegnaro M, Plestina R, Dirheimer O, Chernosemsky IN, Barsch H. Mycotoxins, endemic nephropathy and urinary tract tumors. IARC Sci Pub 1991; 115: 1—340.
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[139] Kristensen P, Andersen A, Irgens L. Hormone-dependent cancer and adverse reproductive outcomes in farmers families—effects of climatic conditions favoring fungal growth in grain. Scand J Work Health 2000; 26(4): 331—7.
[140] Diekman M, Green M. Mycotoxins and reproduction in domestic livestock. J Anim Sci 1992; 70: 1615—27.
[141] Cotran RS. Robbins Pathologic Basis of Disease, 5th edn. New York: WB Saunders, 1994, p. 914.
[142] Cheta D. Animal models of type 1 (insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus. J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab 1998; 11(1): 11—9.
[143] Hoffmeister PA, Storer BE, Sanders JE. Diabetes mellitus in long-term survivors of pediatric hematopoietic cell transplantation. J Pediatr Hematol Oncol 2004; 26(2): 81—90.
[144] Eggleston PA. Environmental control for fungal allergen exposure. Curr Allergy Asthma Rep 2003; 3(5): 424—9.
[145] Heuser G, Axelrod P, Heuser S. Defining chemical injury: a diagnostic protocol and profile of chemically injured civilians, industrial workers and Gulf War veterans. Int Perspect Public Health 2000; 13: 1—16.
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[147] Dales RE, Miller D, McMullen E. Indoor air quality and health: validity and determinants of reported home dampness and molds. Int J Epidemiol 1997; 26: 120—4.
[148] Macher J (ed.) Bioaerosols: Assessment and Control. American Conference of Governmental and Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH), Cincinnati, Ohio, 1999.
[149] Portnoy JM, Barnes CS, Kennedy K. Sampling for indoor fungi. J Allergy Clin Immunol 2004; 113: 189—98.
[150] Institute of Medicine Committee on the Health Effects of Indoor Allergens: Engineering Control Strategies. Allergens: Assessing and Controlling Adverse Health Effects. Engineering Control Strategies. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1993, 206—32.
[151] Institute for Inspection, Cleaning and Restoration. IICRC S520 Standard and reference guide for professional mold remediation.

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InvisibleYst
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6306911 - 11/28/06 06:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

A sobering account. And a very worthy lesson for those who didn't have to experience it. We can only feel fortunate that we've been able to learn through your disquieting experience. There are few forums where one can learn and inform oneself as consistently as one can here.

Edited by Yst (11/28/06 06:45 AM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6551147 - 02/10/07 04:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

i had an expousure issue too... i took in a boatload of pathogenic spores and mycotoxins from servicing a research incubator. the protocols included diflucan, brief statin prescription, plenty of clean water and vitamin c drips. i'm doing well now. any questions, feel free to contact me. i wish you the best of luck

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6990920 - 05/31/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

shit mayte, i'll think of you in my prayers

god bless
and good luck


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: HyphalTryptamin]
    #7010847 - 06/05/07 05:06 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You need to quit scaring people like this. You started this thread like you were dying, with mention of cancer, mycotoxicosis, and all manner of ailments.

After a bunch of tests, it turns out that you happen to be allergic to mold. Well join the club, so are a lot of people.

Your illness might or might not be related to your mold allergy. You apparently didn't have any sort of mold infection. And considering the millions of mold spores you breathe in any normal day you can't link it to contaminated substrate. You don't even have a specific allergy to any given type of mold, you simply produced an allergic reaction to the generic "household mold" sample they used to test you.

I wouldn't even comment, but you're scaring people with no factual basis and you might even neglect your health by not getting a better diagnosis. Then again maybe God smote you for a promise you broke to him, and you can just forget about it now because your god has punished you enough.

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OfflineFellowGrower
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #7045004 - 06/14/07 06:35 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

DAMN! SOunds like your "Taking one for the Team" thanks for postin hope you get better.
...SO this is what your saying,
While my jars are colonizing, Watch them "EVERYDAY"
and if something anit white, or yellowish gold,
Bury That Be-oth!
...meaning the stuff inside.
the Jar itself can be salvaged...right?
or are you saying ANY jar that has had a mold in it is completly fuct and cannot be used again?...
(I'm sayin) you can't even fill em with ammonia and let em sit over night?


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: FellowGrower]
    #7047433 - 06/14/07 07:44 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hello, last night, searching and browsing the forums I read this thread and found it sad and informative. I hope your health improves.

Anyway, when I read about cause of your illness I instantly wondered if inoculating the contaminated jar(s) with alcohol or bleach would destroy the contamination, thus rendering the jars usable again.

I'm somewhat freaked out about mold, I even have plans of getting rid off my room carpet.

Could it be possible to sterilize the jars without having to expose oneself to the contamination?

EDIT: incomplete sentence.

Edited by ch4v4 (06/14/07 07:54 PM)

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Offlinealphaone
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #7081296 - 06/22/07 08:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
You need to quit scaring people like this. You started this thread like you were dying, with mention of cancer, mycotoxicosis, and all manner of ailments.

After a bunch of tests, it turns out that you happen to be allergic to mold. Well join the club, so are a lot of people.

Your illness might or might not be related to your mold allergy. You apparently didn't have any sort of mold infection. And considering the millions of mold spores you breathe in any normal day you can't link it to contaminated substrate. You don't even have a specific allergy to any given type of mold, you simply produced an allergic reaction to the generic "household mold" sample they used to test you.

I wouldn't even comment, but you're scaring people with no factual basis and you might even neglect your health by not getting a better diagnosis. Then again maybe God smote you for a promise you broke to him, and you can just forget about it now because your god has punished you enough.






Dude, I don't know the original poster and what really happened to him but what you are saying here is absolutely incorrect. Molds can cause much more than common allergy. There are 4 primary ways molds can adversely affect humans and animals:

1. Ordinary Allergic reaction

2. Mycoses (infection of the skin or internal organs)

3. Irritation due to mVOCs (microbal volatile organic compounds, also called primary metabolites of molds)

4. Mycotoxicosis (poisoning by mycotoxins; mycotoxins are secondary metabolites of molds)


The first two modes of action are well known and have been recognized by medical science for a long time already.

The third one is obvious (because of smell) but until recently people didn't think it could cause great problems. Exposure to mVOCs from molds has been linked to symptoms such as headaches, nasal irritation, dizziness, fatigue, and nausea. Research on MVOCs is still in the early phase.


But the fourth mode of action - mycotoxicosis - or poisoning with mycotoxins is by far the most serious of all. Not all mold species produce mycotoxins and not all mycotoxins are equally dangerous, but certain common molds can produce extremely potent toxins:


Penicillum sp.
mycotoxins produced:

Various toxins by different species: Anacine, Arisugacins A&B, Auranthine(sclerotigenin), Aurantiamine, Belfedrin A, Botryodiplodin, Brevianamid A, Chaetoglobosin A, B&C, Chlororugulovasines A&B, Chrysogine, Citromycetin, Citreoisocoumarinol, Citreoviridin, Citrinin, Communensins A&B, Compactin, Curvularin, Cyanein, Cyclochlorotine, Cyclopenin, Cyclopenol, Cyclopiazonic acid, Cytostipin, etc.

Aspergillus ochraceous
mycotoxins produced:

Ochratoxin, Penicillic acid.


Stachybotrys sp.
mycotoxins produced:

3-Acetyl-deoxynivalenol , Atranones A-G, Cyclosporins, Diacetoxyscirpenol, Deoxynivalenol or Vomitoxin, Epoxytrichothecene, Isosatratoxins F, G & H, Phenylspirodrimanes, Roridins A, E, Satratoxins F, G & H, Stachylysin, Trichoverrols A, B, Verrucarins A,J, Verrucarol (T-2-tetraol).


Fusarium sp.
mycotoxins produced:

Acetoxyscirpenol, Acetoxyscirpentriol, Acetyldeoxynivalenol, 3-Acetyl-neosolaniol,
15-Acetyl-nivalenol, 3-Acetyl-HT-2 toxin, Acetyl-T-2-tetraol, Acetyl-T-2 toxin, Acuminatopyrone, Antibiotic Y, Apotrichothecenes, Beauvericin, Butenolide, Calonectrin, Chlamydospordiol, Chlamydosporol, Culmorin, Deacylcalonectrin, Deoxyfusapyrone, Deoxynivalenol (Vomitoxin), Diacetyl-nivalenol, Diacetoxyscirpenol etc.


And these are just a few of the toxigenic molds that can occur in damp indoor spaces.

Molds that belong to the species Stachybotrys, Fusarium, Trichoderma, Trichothecium, Myrothecium can produce extremely potent trichothecene mycotoxins. They are so toxic that they are considered to be very effective biological weapons.


If some of these molds grow in indoor spaces due to moisture intrusions that are not quickly fixed, flooding, excessive condensation or broken AC units, they may start releasing the mycotoxins into the air. At greater doses trichothecene mycotoxins are deadly for all. But at smaller doses not everyone may become poisoned because everyone's immune system is different as far as the level of tolerance to these toxins is concerned. It is not unusual then that some persons experience great health problems while others appear to be completely healthy. These toxins affect all cells and all organs in the body, and their impact is cummulative over time. However, as soon the exposure ends, these toxins are usually eliminated rapidly.

The symptoms of chronic poisoning include: skin itching and burning, extreme chronic fatigue, brain fog, memory problems, inability to concentrate, headaches, dizziness, chest pain, scratching feeling in the throat and lungs, diarrhea, constipation, nausea, vomiting, bad coordination, visual perception changes, ringing in ears, sharp pain in the head, more than usually frequent flu and cold infections and many more.

This is a huge problem for certain individuals who are particularly susceptible to mycotoxins. Cross-contamination of objects can also greatly worsen the condition.

Nobody says that an appreciable amount of the toxigenic molds will be found in every jar that has a wee bit of mold. For example, the green mold that usually appears first is by and large nontoxic. But if the jars are left for a really long time at a hot place... then it's better to be safe than sorry and throw them away.


some useful addresses:

http://www.epa.gov/mold
http://oehc.uchc.edu/clinser/MOLD%20GUIDE.pdf
http://mold-help.org

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/trichothecene_mycotoxins.htm
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Satra.html
http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

Edited by alphaone (06/22/07 08:11 PM)

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Invisiblew. murderface
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #7102458 - 06/28/07 07:55 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

that sounds really bad and i hope that ur posts only get more positive soon.


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Eat right stay fit DIE anyways.

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OfflineIrishTemper
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #7354739 - 08/31/07 02:54 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

wow

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #7406304 - 09/13/07 08:49 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

There is nothing in this post to support any of the diagnoses you have suggested.

Apparently the doctors didn't see the condition as serious enough to warrant any sort of labwork.

I'm not arguing that fungi can infect humans, nor that aflatoxins and a whole slew of mycotoxins are produced by fungi. OBVIOUSLY this was not the case in this thread.

The guy had a random condition with vague symptoms and he grasped at straws to find a reason.

Stuff like "toxic home syndrome" related to molds do exist, but they are far overshadowed by people that simply have an unrelated condition and are seeking to answer why they are feeling unhealthy. This is simply another case in the same pattern.

People like to see cause/effect relationships in everything, even where they do not exist. If someone really wanted to find the source of their affliction they could. There are many, many lab tests and epidemiological techniques that could answer the question definitively, but to do so would risk shattering their assumptions about what caused their symptoms. To do so would often rule out their vague assumptions and cause them to have to set out to seek answers again.


-FF

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Offlinealphaone
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #7407538 - 09/14/07 02:58 AM (16 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
There is nothing in this post to support any of the diagnoses you have suggested.





Are you working for some government agency? They tend to downplay the dangers of mold and mycotoxins.

The original poster got sick when he opened the contaminated jars. His doctor determined he had mycosis. What on earth are you talking about - that this diagnosis was wrong? That he suffered from something different altogether? Like what? Stress? Hypochondria? Depression?


Quote:


Apparently the doctors didn't see the condition as serious enough to warrant any sort of labwork.





For your information, if someone has mycosis (infection with molds) that can be detected with special blood tests. Fucknuckle's doctor did those tests and they came back positive (if I remember the whole thread well).

If someone doesn't have mycosis, but is exposed to mycotoxins via dermal, oral or inhalation route, NONE of the ordinary blood tests ever show any significant abnormalites! In fact there is no specific blood test that can show e.g. poisoning by trichothecene mycotoxins. (there are some tests that measure certain hormone concentrations, and if they are abnormal that suggests trichothecene poisoning)


Quote:


I'm not arguing that fungi can infect humans, nor that aflatoxins and a whole slew of mycotoxins are produced by fungi. OBVIOUSLY this was not the case in this thread.





How is it obvious? Please explain.

Quote:


The guy had a random condition with vague symptoms and he grasped at straws to find a reason.





While symptoms of mold poisoning can seem quite perplexing and non-specific, they are very real. Nausea, diarrhea, neurological problems, memory loss, inability to concentrate, brain fog - just to name a few - all of these symptoms are not specific, yet they have been proven to be caused by chronic exposure to trichothecene poisons (e.g. Satratoxin).


Quote:


Stuff like "toxic home syndrome" related to molds do exist, but they are far overshadowed by people that simply have an unrelated condition and are seeking to answer why they are feeling unhealthy. This is simply another case in the same pattern.





Then perhaps you can explain these people that their condition is unrelated to molds and mycotoxins:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/sickbuildings/

There are more than 4000 members I think.

Hundreds of thousands of people have had their lives completely ruined by mycotoxins in damp buildings all over the world. Big companies and some governments (e.g. USA govt) turn a blind eye on this because it would cost a lot of money to do the necessary repairs and to treat the people who got sick and give them appropriate long-term therapy. It's far easier to tell someone to take prozac or that he has an allergy than to get to the bottom of the problem.


Quote:


People like to see cause/effect relationships in everything, even where they do not exist. If someone really wanted to find the source of their affliction they could. There are many, many lab tests and epidemiological techniques that could answer the question definitively, but to do so would risk shattering their assumptions about what caused their symptoms. To do so would often rule out their vague assumptions and cause them to have to set out to seek answers again.





I invite you to join the Yahoo group I posted here. There are some very sick people there who have confirmed mycotoxicosis. There are also many who still await this confirmation although it's obvious it's the same health condition. And there are several IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) experts that can explain the subtleties of the horror that's called Sick Building Syndrome.

Since I am pretty knowlegeable about this problem, I'd like to know what are these epidemiological techniques and tests that could answer the question definitely? Please name them. It would certainly be great if they can be used widely and if they are affordable.


Just one piece of advice: Never underestimate toxic molds. Many people died because they did just that. Even more people became permanently disabled due to mycotoxins. Until one is personally affected, one can never truly know how mold hell feels like.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #7449449 - 09/24/07 09:33 PM (16 years, 6 months ago)

> Then perhaps you can explain these people that their condition is unrelated to molds and mycotoxins:
> There are more than 4000 members I think.

And I would bet that about 1000 of them actually suffer from mold related problems. And of that 1000 about half of them simply have allergies to various common molds. I made it quite clear in my post that the condition does exist, but it's one of those catch-all diagnoses that get applied to people with vague unrelated symptoms or simply general malaise. The fact is that if you have vague symptoms that point to no diagnosis and you live in an older house a lot of people end up believing that they have some sort of mold related condition when it simply isn't the case.

This is easily verified by checking up on their homes. A lot of the time no mold is found. Thus, people either have to abandon their vague diagnosis, or they start to claim that it is some sort of unidentified mold hiding in places where it can't be found.

Earlier in your post you make it clear that you didn't really read the thread very well.

Fucknucklle said: "The doctors found that I was very allergic to some type of unidentified Mold."

Without any supporting evidence that is the medical equivalent of saying that you are possessed by evil spirits.

Fucknuckle went to the doctor with the idea that mold exposure caused his symptoms. The doctor did some tests and found nothing, so in the absence of any diagnosis he told fucknuckle what he expected to hear.

Patients often demand explanations and diagnoses from doctors. Under that kind of pressure they often resort to vague or nonsensical diagnoses without any supporting evidence. That's exactly what happened in this case.

Without a positive allergy test there is no rational or scientific basis to say that it was an allergy that caused his symptoms. And to say that it was a mold allergy is simply preposterous, in a logical sense. But that is what was expected, and what would satisfy the patient.

As far as techniques to determine his actual illness, there are many. Assuming the patient wanted to pursue the idea that it was mold related I would have started with a blood workup. Allergen antibodies and a tox screen. I would have taken a sample of the suspected causative mold and cultured it. Then done some standard skin allergy tests.

Epidemiologically, was anyone else exposed? Did they have similar symptoms? Did removal of the suspected causative agent relieve the symptoms? Did antihistamines relieve the symptoms?

In the end no causative agent was identified, no samples were taken, and no treatment was given. The condition simply resolved itself.

The putative diagnosis, unidentified allergy, is worthless. It's just plain wrong to scare people with no evidence.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #8571942 - 06/27/08 06:01 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly, I really hope you feel better dude, it sucks having to go through that kind of stuff.

But anyways, are you suggesting that there is no possible way to clean and keep the jars that were contaminated if it is done properly and fast?


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: skaterickets]
    #9675127 - 01/25/09 09:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry for resurrecting a very old thread, but I second the question above me.  If you steam or pressure cook your jars, would this danger still exist?  I would think that dead mold spores would pose no hazard, but I really do not know.  Is it the fact they are alive and inhaled that causes problems, or simply their shape?  It's obviously best not to inhale any mold spores, dead or alive, but it makes you wonder.  Anyone know?

Edit:  Reading fast fred's post two posts up, I realize that the danger is very little as long as you're careful, but I still wonder.

Edited by libertaire (01/25/09 09:47 AM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: libertaire]
    #9676137 - 01/25/09 12:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Since when is Fastfred an authority on mold related issues? 

Yes, bleach will kill mold spores and thus make the jar virtually sterile. That means there would be practically no chance for infection.

HOWEVER, infection (mycosis) with mold spores is only one of roughly speaking 3 types of fungal related illnesses. The other two are allergy and toxicity. By killing spores you won't destroy either allergens nor mold toxins (mycotoxins). Some mycotoxins are very powerful and require special procedures in order to be fully destroyed. Just pouring some diluted bleach won't do the job in most cases.



More info here:

http://www.epa.gov/mold
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/11/7376
http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/patients/New/sbarticle.php

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9676184 - 01/25/09 12:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the info alphaone.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: libertaire]
    #9677027 - 01/25/09 03:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Since when is Fastfred an authority on mold related issues?

LOL!  :tongue:

FYI nobody here has ever produced a single documented case of mycosis or mycotoxicosis resulting from mushroom cultivation.  This is despite decades of fearmongers here railing on about the potential dangers.

That's kind of weird when you think about it isn't it?  It's pretty hard to see how thousands of people could cultivate for decades and post hundreds of thousands of posts on cultivation related issues without a single documented report being produced, referenced, or cited.


Now, it's well documented that people can develop allergies to oyster mushroom spores.  Those allergies can even be quite acute and severe.  However this almost always happens in oyster production facilities when workers breathe in extremely high spore loads for long periods of time (40hrs/wk for months or years).

And the thing is that I've never even seen a documented or tested allergic response from anyone here.  The test is extremely simple and almost everyone here already has the equipment.  A simple skin-prick allergy test would prove the cause of the allergy one way or the other.

There's simply no evidence whatsoever that working with contaminated cakes is any more dangerous than cleaning out your bathroom  or throwing out a loaf of bread that has gone moldy, in fact that's pretty much exactly what a spent cake is.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9677130 - 01/25/09 03:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Except when you throw out a piece of moldy bread or clean your bathroom, it's not a massive colony of mold, it's on a much smaller scale.  Which is why you should throw out your cakes the second you see a contamination and not wait for it to take over the whole thing.  Either way though, I think fastfred is right, it's very little danger if any, so long as you're careful.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9677146 - 01/25/09 03:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

bread almost always gets infected with blue green mold, the shit cakes get infected with usually looks like it was spawned from hell.

and the reason you can't find documented cases is because its not something that happens over night, so you can't trace it back easily.  and even if it did happen over night there's still many other variables

i myself do have an interesting story tho it has no proof because of the above mentioned problems.  but short story is i ate some uncooked mushroom and then my throat felt funny.  for the next 2 years i battled sore throats that never seemed to completely go away.  and also during that time my health has completely went downhill with deteriorating bones.  i was felt like a race horse prior to this, now i feel like an old man about to loose his ability to walk for good

but thats just food for thought and obviously doesn't hold any value other than to give people something to think about


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Edited by makaveli8x8 (01/25/09 03:39 PM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #9677219 - 01/25/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

What kind of mushrooms were they?  I had a similar reaction to oyster mushrooms I picked from the wild.  I'm no expert IDer, but I'm pretty certain they were oyster mushrooms.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: libertaire]
    #9677316 - 01/25/09 04:00 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

it wasn't oysters, im thinking the bacteria or some kind of toxin might have did it to me


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #9677710 - 01/25/09 04:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Except when you throw out a piece of moldy bread or clean your bathroom, it's not a massive colony of mold, it's on a much smaller scale.




Obviously you've never been in my kitchen... or bathroom :wink:

There are plenty of "I got sick and couldn't figure out why so I blame contam exposure" cases.  Apparently it seems that nobody has ever been sick enough to get the actual medical tests that it would take to get an actual diagnosis though.

Like the story above, there seem to be people who claim to have been deathly ill for long periods of time and blame contaminated mushrooms, but despite being so ill for so long nobody seems to bother checking it out or doing any medical tests that would reveal the cause.  That makes me pretty skeptical of those types of claims.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9677806 - 01/25/09 05:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

yah the problem is to get all those tests would put us all in debt for the next 20 years, and id rather save that money than waste it on pointless tests when im going to be fucked nomatter what they say.  so ill use that saved money for a nice wheelchair or something before i hit my late 20's

having a sore throat that goes in and out every couple days you just learn to live with, but you know just as well as I that all kinds of funky shit lives on and near mushrooms and eating them raw could easily cause some really screwed up problems.  im not putting a name like mycotoxicosis on it or anything like that, im just saying i feel i probly caught something from eating raw mushrooms if thats the same thing oh well lol.  every single day we learn more and more bacteria virus etc etc are actually the cause of certain dieases/aliments.  if the debate is mold/spores i don't really see how they could be ruled out either.  i just seen something on tv about heartburn/ulcers and how they think some might be caused by simple bacteria that could be whiped out with antibotics


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9678195 - 01/25/09 05:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:

FYI nobody here has ever produced a single documented case of mycosis or mycotoxicosis resulting from mushroom cultivation.  This is despite decades of fearmongers here railing on about the potential dangers.





I didn't reply specifically regarding mushroom cultivation. The reply was given more as a general response to your previous denial of the reality of toxic and irritant-related health problems in people exposed to mold in buildings and from badly maintained air conditioners.


I will repeat again: Allergy is NOT the only adverse effect that molds can produce. Mycotoxicoses cannot be routinely diagnosed through IgE and IgG antibodies. Mycotoxins themselves are hard to measure directly in patient's blood because these tests are expensive and the inhaled or dermally absorbed toxins can already be excreted by the time the test is performed. Therefore alternative blood tests are usually done.

These tests include:

HLA-DR (DNA test that can be used for determination of susceptibility to biotoxins)

MSH (Alpha-Melanocyte stimulating hormone)
Leptin
VEGF (Vascular endothelial growth factor)
MBP (Myelin basic protein)
MMP-9 (Matrix metalloproteinase 9)
C3a -  Activated 3 rd component of complement
C3d - Immune complex (serum, freeze)
C1q - Complement immune complexes (serum, freeze)
C2 - Complement C2 

and several more.

The values for these blood tests are significantly different in persons who have been exposed to toxigenic molds and their metabolic by-products (mycotoxins, MVOCs, beta glucans etc.). The HLA test is not dependant on the exposure but can serve as an indicator of potential susceptibility.

Btw. the most commonly performed complete blood test (CBC) does not show any abnormalities in people exposed to mold metabolites.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17010568
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15681119

(or in much greater deteail here:) http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/ShoeNTP_12_06_07w_attach.pdf


In the past three years or so there has been a major breakthrough in the recognition of adverse health effects that molds can produce which are NOT mediated through classic allergy type responses.

Besides allergens molds produce many other metabolites:

(I) primary metabolites or microbial volatile organic compounds  (MVOCs). These are complex mixtures of alcohols, ketones, aldehydes, hydrocarbons, phenols, carboxylic acids etc. These compounds give the characteristic earthy or musty odor to growing molds. They are released as molds digest whatever surface they grow on. These compounds can irritate trigeminal nerve and initiate the "fight or flight response".

They can induce symptoms such as: nausea, burning or itching sensations on the skin, strong headaches, flu-like symptoms, greater susceptibility to other diseases etc.

Some people can become extremely sensitive to these compounds due to either inborn susceptibility or acquired hypersensitivity (e.g. after massive or prolonged exposure to pesticides). These are two of the proposed theories how seemingly innocuous MVOCs can strongly affect trigeminal nerve:

1) William Meggs' hypothesis about neurogenic switching:

http://www.herc.org/news/mcsarticles/meggs2-full.htm

2) Dr Martin Pall's theory about the role of "The Vanilloid Receptor as a Putative Target of Diverse Chemicals in Multiple Chemical Sensitivity"

http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,5;journal,2,19;linkingpublicationresults,1:119954,1



(II) Mycotoxins are non-volatile secondary metabolites  of mold. They are not essential for the life of fungi but they are released when molds feel threatened (such as during abrupt changes in the temperature or humidity) and serve as potent weapons with which a specific mold can gain a competitive advantage over other molds and bacteria in a given ecologic niche. There are several hundreds of mycotoxins, but the most important ones are: aflatoxins, trichothecenes, zearalenone, fumonisins, ochratoxins and ergot alkaloids.

The impact of food contaminated with mycotoxins on the health of animals and humans is well documented (that means the oral route of exposure). For instance, aflatoxins are considered to be one the most potent cancerogens known. Trichothecenes are so acutely toxic via dermal and inhalation routes that they were used as biological weapons:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/medaspec/Ch-34electrv699.pdf

In the past 20 years or so there have been many reports of people becoming seriously ill in water damaged buildings (WDB). Although one signle cause has not yet been found, it is thought that both volatile MVOCs and non-volatile mycotoxins play a part in the sick building syndrome. Until recently it was thought that mycotoxins in water damaged buildings cannot appear in the significant amount to cause any symptoms. However, newer studies done in Sweden, Denmark and USA confirm that statistically significant amounts of mycotoxins can become airborne and therefore contrubute to the deterioration of health of people living in such buildings:

1) Mycotoxins in indoor environments. Determination using mass spectrometry.

http://www.lu.se/o.o.i.s?id=12588&postid=1265413

2) Detection of Airborne Stachybotrys chartarum Macrocyclic Trichothecene Mycotoxins in the Indoor Environment

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/11/7376

3) Neurotoxicity and Inflammation in the Nasal Airways of Mice Exposed to the Macrocyclic Trichothecene Mycotoxin Roridin A: Kinetics and Potentiation by Bacterial Lipopolysaccharide Coexposure

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/2/526


Quote:


That's kind of weird when you think about it isn't it?  It's pretty hard to see how thousands of people could cultivate for decades and post hundreds of thousands of posts on cultivation related issues without a single documented report being produced, referenced, or cited.





Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Do you think that mushroom cultivators routinely report each health problem they have and, even if they do, that they always give the correct information about their little hobby?

I want to emphaize again that I DO NOT write all this to discourage mushroom cultivation. I myself grew mushrooms from time to time and I will agree that, with proper precautions, there is minimal or no risk. However, let's not forget that fungi can indeed produce potent toxins and irritants which can literally destroy a person's health.






Quote:


And the thing is that I've never even seen a documented or tested allergic response from anyone here.  The test is extremely simple and almost everyone here already has the equipment.  A simple skin-prick allergy test would prove the cause of the allergy one way or the other.






You focus only on allergy and infection.

Again:

Molds can affect people in four ways:

1) Allergy
2) Infection
3) Irritation / Hypersensitivity (MVOCs, beta glucans)
4) Toxicity (Mycotoxins)



Quote:


There's simply no evidence whatsoever that working with contaminated cakes is any more dangerous than cleaning out your bathroom  or throwing out a loaf of bread that has gone moldy, in fact that's pretty much exactly what a spent cake is.





Yes, provided that those cakes were not left to decompose for a very long time, as it seems to have been the case with the original poster. Longer time means there is greater chance that the molds will produce mycotoxins and very irritating MVOCs, not only allergenic spores.

Edited by alphaone (01/25/09 06:02 PM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9678754 - 01/25/09 07:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Fortunately science does not rely on disproving every wild claim that is made.

Quote:

Do you think that mushroom cultivators routinely report each health problem they have and, even if they do, that they always give the correct information about their little hobby?




If I developed a medical problem and confirmed it was caused by some common contaminant I would certainly report it.  I doubt anyone here would not report it as it's kind of a major and interesting event.

Further there is a large mushroom industry in most of the world.  These people deal with the same problems on a much larger scale.  They are required to report workplace injuries and pay disability, workers comp, etc..  I just haven't heard of any of them having any problems.

Anyone who really believes this is a problem really needs to do some research and produce some evidence to lend credibility to their argument.  Otherwise the possibility is entirely theoretical.  It's no more real of a problem than the possibility that you might accidentally jump forward 5 feet when trying to step over a crack in the sidewalk.  Sure it could happen theoretically, but it probably never has and never will.

> I will agree that, with proper precautions, there is minimal or no risk.

I would go so far as to claim that the "minimal risk" of medical problems from contaminants is less than the risk involved in almost any other activity one might be engaged in if they were not busy spending their time cultivating.  Dangers from spills, burns, exploding pressure cookers, etc. dwarf the danger from this purely theoretical risk.

Quote:

However, let's not forget that fungi can indeed produce potent toxins and irritants which can literally destroy a person's health.




This is true.  I would certainly feel bad if someone consumed aflatoxins and developed liver cancer from eating contaminated material.  However due to the fact that this has never been reported the risk is likely nearly non-existent.  Since aflatoxin poisoning does happen to the general public it seems odd to me that such concerns would be considered in the cultivation context when you are much more likely to get the aflatoxin poisoning from contaminated grains in your diet rather than contaminated substrate.

Thanks for the information you've presented.  I'm not disputing that fungi can cause health problems.  It certainly happens, but it's quite rare.  IMHO the MAJORITY of "sick house" and amateur mycotoxicoses diagnoses are unrelated to fungi.

Every few years we see a large population of hypochondriacs and people with undiagnosable illnesses jump over to the latest syndrome bandwagon.  Chronic fatigue syndrome, sick house syndrome, etc., etc..  I'm not saying they aren't real conditions, it's just that they aren't diseases that can be characterized, they are symptoms that are lumped into different syndromes.  That creates a lot of vague categories which play on people's logical frailties and result in a state where most people that self-identify with these conditions have nothing in common medically with each other.  The sad thing is that it undermines the credibility and treatment of the very people that need the most help.

The current condition here is that there are 1,000s of warning and scare posts and tens-of-thousands of scared people with ZERO actual cases of sickness shown to be caused from contaminated grows.

I don't buy that it's just too hard to document or diagnose these cases either.  Anything you get from a BRF cake can logically be cultured easily.  And last time I checked skin-prick tests were still in use for diagnosing allergy to molds.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9680647 - 01/26/09 02:16 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Thanks for the information you've presented.  I'm not disputing that fungi can cause health problems.  It certainly happens, but it's quite rare.  IMHO the MAJORITY of "sick house" and amateur mycotoxicoses diagnoses are unrelated to fungi.





And you would be VERY wrong to claim that. The vast majority of sick building syndrome complaints ARE due to microbial contamination. Not only due to molds and mycotoxins but also due to gram negative bacteria and their metabolites (LPS - lipopolysaccharides). Again I advise you to read something before giving your "final opinon" on the matter.

This would be a good start:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17010568
http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/patients/New/sbarticle.php

Since I am one of those who would you label a "hypochondriac" - even though I have the above mentioned blood tests done which undeniably prove the influence of mycotoxins - I can only give you one piece of advice given to me by an old friend of mine:

Do not claim something that you know nothing or little about. In the best case you will seem like a fool.

Quote:


Every few years we see a large population of hypochondriacs and people with undiagnosable illnesses jump over to the latest syndrome bandwagon.  Chronic fatigue syndrome, sick house syndrome, etc., etc..  I'm not saying they aren't real conditions, it's just that they aren't diseases that can be characterized, they are symptoms that are lumped into different syndromes.





Again, you haven't even read the articles and scientific studies I already posted! If you had, you would have known that there ARE now very precise tests which can show if a person's immune system is susceptible to mold toxins, and also if the person's immune system is trying to defend itself against these chemicals - not through the classic allergy IgE and IgG responses but through other ways. Unfortunately most often unsuccessfuly.

Edited by alphaone (01/26/09 02:28 AM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9680724 - 01/26/09 03:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hardcore sceptics claim they "know" that people are not be affected by the physical agents (mycotoxins, MVOCs, LPS, beta glucans...) produced by molds and bacteria in indoor environments. They claim this despite the fact they have never read any scientific studies on this matter, and never treated one sick patient.

But, in the end, the hardcore sceptics can become believers - after they have had their own hellish experience with mold toxins and irritants.

Here's just one recent case of a scientist who was so convinced that fungi could not cause any serious illness (except rare infections) that she actually testified in court disputing the reality of the sick building syndrome:


http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/ICAAC-IDSA/11529


Medical News from
ICAAC-IDSA: A Joint Meeting of ASM and IDSA Meeting


ICAAC-IDSA: Fungi Geneticist Warns of Sick Building Syndrome

By Emily P. Walker, Washington Correspondent, MedPage Published: October 29, 2008

Reviewed by Zalman S. Agus, MD; Emeritus Professor
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine.


WASHINGTON, Oct. 29 -- It was the smell of her Hurricane
Katrina-damaged home that transformed fungi geneticist Joan Bennett,
Ph.D., from a sick building syndrome skeptic into a believer.

Dr. Bennett, who had spent years studying the genetics of fungi, was
so cynical about claims of sick buildings that she had even testified
as an expert witness for insurance companies, heaping scorn on
homeowners' claims about pathological mold and fungi.

But when Dr. Bennett stepped into her New Orleans home after the
hurricane-driven floodwaters had receded from the brick and plaster
structure, her dubious shell began to crack.

"The overwhelming obnoxiousness of the odor and of the enveloping air
made me start to believe in something I never had before -- sick
building syndrome," she said at the Interscience Conference on
Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, held jointly with the
Infectious Diseases Society of America meeting.

Dr. Bennett's confession came during a press conference before a
symposium on the links between human disease and molds.

Absent actual infection, such as athlete's foot, Dr. Bennett's had
thought fungi could not cause illness, especially the seemingly
disparate sick buildings afflictions -- impotence, headaches, and
hemorrhages.

Then came Katrina.

The hurricane left her home uninhabitable and many of her possessions
had to be destroyed -- victims of the way fungi "eat."

"Fungi have a strange way of gaining nutrition," Dr. Bennett said.
"They put enzymes and acids into the environment, they turn everything
out there to slime, then they reabsorb it. They literally live in
their food and in their waste."

That process, she now thinks, may release volatile organic compounds
that can have an effect on human health.

"Perhaps what we're dealing with was not spores associated with fungi,
but some volatile compound," suggested Dr. Bennett, who left Tulane
University in New Orleans after the hurricane to work at the School of
Environmental and Biological Sciences at Rutgers.

Dr. Bennett is in the early stages of analyzing the fungi in New
Orleans homes and then testing the biological effects of
fungus-generated volatiles on worms.

In the long run, she hopes to understand -- with the help of animal
models -- how fungi might affect the health of humans.

There are more than 3,000 volatile compounds produced by each
individual fungus, making it difficult for researchers to pinpoint
which fungus produces which volatile compound and what effect it might
have on human health, said David Denning, M.D., of North Manchester
General Hospital in Manchester, England.

"You've got multiple different fungi, multiple different chemicals,
and different susceptibilities and symptoms to work there," Dr.
Denning said. "It's quite a complex area."

Dr. Denning's own work, presented here, concerned a randomized
clinical trial in which 60 severe asthma patients were treated with
the antifungal medication itraconazole or given placebo.

He said the patients given the itraconazole had a "very significant
benefit in quality of life," among 60% of the patients. They also
relied on fewer steroids and inhalers to manage their asthma.

The reason for the success of the treatment, he suggested, is that
some people are "hypersensitive" to fungi.

"These individuals are sensitized so we can detect an abnormal immune
response, and those fungi seem to aggravate their asthma," he said.

Primary source: ICAAC-IDSA Meeting

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9680747 - 01/26/09 03:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
> Since when is Fastfred an authority on mold related issues?

LOL!  :tongue:

FYI nobody here has ever produced a single documented case of mycosis or mycotoxicosis resulting from mushroom cultivation.  This is despite decades of fearmongers here railing on about the potential dangers.

That's kind of weird when you think about it isn't it?  It's pretty hard to see how thousands of people could cultivate for decades and post hundreds of thousands of posts on cultivation related issues without a single documented report being produced, referenced, or cited.


Now, it's well documented that people can develop allergies to oyster mushroom spores.  Those allergies can even be quite acute and severe.  However this almost always happens in oyster production facilities when workers breathe in extremely high spore loads for long periods of time (40hrs/wk for months or years).

And the thing is that I've never even seen a documented or tested allergic response from anyone here.  The test is extremely simple and almost everyone here already has the equipment.  A simple skin-prick allergy test would prove the cause of the allergy one way or the other.

There's simply no evidence whatsoever that working with contaminated cakes is any more dangerous than cleaning out your bathroom  or throwing out a loaf of bread that has gone moldy, in fact that's pretty much exactly what a spent cake is.


-FF




agreed

fred's authority is irrelevant given he didn't invoke it to justify his opinion you attacking it to repudiate it is questionable- especially since it has nothing to do with the points he's making

No reason to not be cautious, but I share fred's skepticism given the dirth of evidence in these cases- much of which would not be dependant upon the problematic factors identified by other posters.  Does the problem persist out of the area where exposure is suspected?  Are you allergic?  Do you have any objective evidence anything is even wrong let alone its cause?

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: johnm214]
    #9680765 - 01/26/09 03:56 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


No reason to not be cautious, but I share fred's skepticism given the (sic) dirth of evidence in these cases- much of which would not be dependant upon the problematic factors identified by other posters.





Huh?

Quote:


Does the problem persist out of the area where exposure is suspected?  Are you allergic?  Do you have any objective evidence anything is even wrong let alone its cause?





I am not allergic. I am hypersensitive to certain mold  volatile compounds. (for the 10th time) Classic allergy is not the only way fungi can affect people. For me, the main problem is that the offending substance of microbial origin can easily cross-contaminate objects outside the area with the source of micribial contamination. People's susceptibility to these fungal metabolites vary considerably. The concentration that can bring me down on my knees can have no impact whatsoever on other people. The genetic susceptibility can be determined  by each individual's HLA haplotype.

I do have objective evidence (as I have already said)  but I certainly don't feel obliged to confess or prove this data to you on the public forum.

Edited by alphaone (01/26/09 04:05 AM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9681614 - 01/26/09 10:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fred's authority is irrelevant given he didn't invoke it to justify his opinion you attacking it to repudiate it is questionable- especially since it has nothing to do with the points he's making




Thanks john.  Accusations that I don't have the authority or evidence to be skeptical don't bother me all that much.  It's the job of the claimant to satisfy the skeptics, not the other way around.

Quote:

Here's just one recent case of a scientist who was so convinced that fungi could not cause any serious illness (except rare infections) that she actually testified in court disputing the reality of the sick building syndrome:




A scientist that changes her expert scientific opinion based on the fact that a moldy, water damaged home 'smells bad' has no credibility in my mind whatsoever.  I highly doubt that Joan Bennett will be testifying as an 'expert witness' ever again.  "Smells bad" simply isn't a valid basis upon which to base a scientific conclusion.  I wonder if she is so sheltered that she's never smelled a moldy basement or house before.  Seems kinda funny that she didn't realize that rotting buildings stank.

I can just see her testimony now...

Bennett: "Your honor, there is no way that the plaintiff suffered medical problems from her moldy home, and the insurance company should not be forced to pay anything!"

Prosecutor: "Dr. Bennett, were you aware that the house had an 'overwhelming obnoxiousness of the odor and of the enveloping air'?"

Bennett: "Oh no! I didn't realize that!"  "Nobody ever told me that rotting houses full of molds smelled bad!"  "In light of this new evidence I must retract my expert testimony and state that this horrible, stinky house certainly caused all of the plaintiffs medical problems... everything from his impotence to his baldness is the fault of these horrible, stinking molds!"  "The insurance company should pay the full amount requested, plus a fine for participating in this frivolous litigation."  "In fact, you should consider disbarring them for withholding this critical 'smell evidence'!"

Quote:

The vast majority of sick building syndrome complaints ARE due to microbial contamination.




Sorry to poke fun at your 'expert witness', but I just couldn't resist.  Maybe you are misunderstanding me.  I don't doubt that there are quite a large number of people who actually suffer illness related to exposure to molds.  In that respect I am not a skeptic.  But based on previous analysis of 'fad syndromes' (no offense to the sufferers intended) it would be quite surprising if more than 40% shared a common causality.

Because of the nature of these 'syndrome' diagnoses you just tend to end up with a lot of people fearing that something is causing their problems when in fact they have no basis for that opinion.

I also fail to see how this discussion relates to cultivation.  On the one hand we have very brief exposure to a limited amount of a single (or at most a couple different) molds, and on the other hand we have people exposed to high levels of many different molds living systemically throughout their building over long periods of time.

Additionally, the molds that result from water damage and rotting building materials are an entirely different set from those that will contaminate brown rice flour.  Perhaps you would address what parallels, if any, that you see between the two.


Alphaone, I don't doubt that you suffer a sensitivity to certain unidentified compounds in your environment.  I don't even doubt that there is a good likelihood that it's related to or produced by microorganisms.  I do recall a SBS case which turned out to be due to VOC contaminated soil underneath a woman's trailer.  So I hate to have people risk their health by assuming that the cause of their symptoms has been definitively identified.

As one final note I would point out to you that the very course of this debate tends to take credibility away from cultivation related causes by providing a more likely source of the problem, namely SBS.  It's hard to argue that a small exposure from smelling a jar caused your problems when you are in fact constantly living in a witches' brew of molds, fungi, and their associated spores and VOCs coming from your own home.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

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I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #9681620 - 01/26/09 10:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ive been experiencing some of the symptoms in the OP lately. Particularly: sinus/throat pains
face twitching
swollen lymph nodes
memory loss

I thought it was just a cold..but now Im worried.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9681828 - 01/26/09 11:14 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

A scientist that changes her expert scientific opinion based on the fact that a moldy, water damaged home 'smells bad' has no credibility in my mind whatsoever.  I highly doubt that Joan Bennett will be testifying as an 'expert witness' ever again.  "Smells bad" simply isn't a valid basis upon which to base a scientific conclusion.  I wonder if she is so sheltered that she's never smelled a moldy basement or house before.  Seems kinda funny that she didn't realize that rotting buildings stank.

I can just see her testimony now...





You didn't understand. Perhaps the journalist didn't explain her predicament well enough. She didn't change her mind about mold toxins because of the mold odor itself (that was only the first thing she observed), but because her health deteriorated upon exposure to volatile compounds from mold.

As far as I know, the most toxic volatile compounds from mold do not even have any odor at all. The contamination was such that she had to dispose of all here belongings and never turn back.

You can never quite understand how this can happen unless you experience it for yourself.



Quote:


Bennett: "Oh no! I didn't realize that!"  "Nobody ever told me that rotting houses full of molds smelled bad!"  "In light of this new evidence I must retract my expert testimony and state that this horrible, stinky house certainly caused all of the plaintiffs medical problems...





It's perhaps interesting to poke fun at those who suffer from mold, but also shows how immature the jester is.


Quote:


I also fail to see how this discussion relates to cultivation.  On the one hand we have very brief exposure to a limited amount of a single (or at most a couple different) molds, and on the other hand we have people exposed to high levels of many different molds living systemically throughout their building over long periods of time.

Additionally, the molds that result from water damage and rotting building materials are an entirely different set from those that will contaminate brown rice flour.  Perhaps you would address what parallels, if any, that you see between the two.





Molds are ubiquitous. Each mold species has its preference for food and moisture etc. There is nothing special about brown rice flour that would prevent it to become colonized with toxigenic molds that can secrete mycotoxins and other offensive compouns.

Although, yes, you are partially right - the worst toxigenic molds such as Stachybotrys or Fusarium are unlikely to ever grow on brown rice flour because their food preference is different. I am not so sure about Aspergillus and Penicillum molds, though.


Btw. I didn't become ill from cultivating the mushrooms. I became ill from microbial contaminants from several heavily mold infested air conditioners.

I think I have provided enough information for anyone who is interested in this matter. This discussion is over for me. I don't intend to waste my time on fruitless, childlike discussions.


Edited by alphaone (01/26/09 11:33 AM)

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9682058 - 01/26/09 12:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Although, yes, you are partially right - the worst toxigenic molds such as Stachybotrys or Fusarium are unlikely to ever grow on brown rice flour because their food preference is different.





Oops, I stand corrected. Stachybotrys chartarum can grow very well on rice flour agar and produce its mycotoxins.


http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/173/5/512

Microbe Preparations
The S. chartarum strain s. 72 (NRRL 6084) has been characterized (15) and was grown on rice flour agar as previously described (16). When grown on rice agar, it produces satratoxin G and H, stachybotrylactone, and stachybotrylactam in the amounts of 4 ng, 10 ng, 8 µg, and 2 µg, respectively, per 105 spores. The spores were suspended directly from the agar plates into phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) and {gamma}-irradiated with 10 kGy before use.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: alphaone]
    #9682270 - 01/26/09 12:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

This discussion is over for me. I don't intend to waste my time on fruitless, childlike discussions.




Perhaps this is because you take everything I write as a personal attack on your SBS crusade.

The topic of this thread has little to do with SBS.  I merely mentioned it as a related topic to point out how easily it is to stir up fear of a condition amongst people when there is little or no evidence to support that fear in SOME or MOST cases.  Mercury in vaccines, SBS, chronic fatigue syndrome, etc., etc.. 

Sometimes it turns out to be nothing at all, sometimes it turns out that SOME people are are affected by a common cause, but in all of the cases it turns out that the fear is exaggerated and MANY or MOST people believing they suffer from a condition do not.

If you look at ADHD, autism, depression, chronic fatigue syndrome, SBS, etc. you'll see that a 'disease' that was once nearly non-existent now appears to be destroying our entire nation's health.  It happens because a little bit of fearmongering gets millions of people to say "maybe that's what I have!" "Maybe that's why my child won't behave," or "It's not my fault, I have a medical condition!"

I'm not saying that you are one of those people, only that they exist and are a tremendous burden on real progress and genuine understanding of risks.  The sad part is that in the end they undermine their own health by not determining the real cause for their problems.  Thousands of mothers cry themselves to sleep at night because of the vaccine they gave their autistic child when in fact there is no truth to it whatsoever.

Considering that there has never been a documented case of someone getting sick from exposure to contaminated substrate the entire thread and this entire debate is foolish.  It's embarrassing and offensive that I have to constantly debate the probability of this with people when it can't even be calculated because it has never happened!


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

The difference between the substances doesn't matter. This is a war on consciousness, on our right to the very essence of what we are. With no control over that, we have no need to speak of freedom or a free society. -fireseed

"If we are going to have a war on marijuana, the least we can do is pull the sick and the dying off the battlefield." -Neal Levine (MPP)

I find the whole "my drug should be legal but yours should be illegal" mindset disgusting and hypocritical. It's what George Bush and company do when they drink a cocktail and debate the best way to imprison marijuana users. -Diploid

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #9690781 - 01/27/09 07:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

[67]
Hu FB, Persky V, Flay BR, Richardson J. An epidemiological study of asthma prevalence and related factors among young adults. J Asthma 1997; 34(1): 67—76.
[68]
Jaakkola J, Jaakkola N, Ruotsalainen R. Home dampness and molds as determinants of
respiratory symptoms and asthma in pre-school children. J Exposure Anal Environ Epidemiol 1993; 3(Supplement 1): 126—42.
:69:
Slezak J, Persky V, Kviz F, Ramakrishnan V, Byers C. Asthma prevalence and risk factors in selected Head Start sites in Chicago. J Asthma 1998; 35(2): 203—12.
[70]
Lee YL, Lin YC, Hsiue TR, Hwang BF, Guo YL. Indoor and outdoor environmental exposures, parental atopy and physician diagnosed asthma in Taiwanese schoolchildren. Pediatrics 2003; 112(5): e389—95.




:ilold:


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #11781983 - 01/07/10 08:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry I know this thread is 'really' old, but I just feel obligated to warn the OP (Fucknuckle) to get regular cancer screenings from here on out. Some species of mold contain aflatoxins which are some of the most carcinogenic compounds known to man. And cancer is a long-term risk - since you know that you have been exposed to toxic mold you 'need' to get cancer screenings regularly.

Doing so may save your life, so I feel this warning is worth reviving this thread. Glad to hear you have made a recovery though and thanks for warning people of the inherent risks! You may be saving others' lives by making this thread in the first place!

Good luck :smile:

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Magick]
    #11783863 - 01/07/10 02:11 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We're still waiting for a single properly documented case of sickness from exposure to a common mold resulting from cultivation.

It seems pretty unlikely to me that the OP had anything related to cultivation or even mold exposure.  Since no proper specimens were identified, no conclusive tests were performed, and there is no evidence to indicate it was a mold problem there's also no reason to take precautions indicated for a specific type of exposure.

It would have been a simple matter to get a aflatoxin screen.  So if the symptoms at the time didn't warrant a $100 test then why should he now spend thousands on tests for something he probably wasn't exposed to?


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11785276 - 01/07/10 05:52 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

People here now may not know this now, but the OP was one of the biggest trolls to ever patrol these forums. He has also told stories about committing murder on in the philosophy forum before...I wouldn't believe a damn thing he ever said...lol. He hasn't been seen around here for over 3 years now.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #11786474 - 01/07/10 09:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Regardless of this thread, Mycotoxicosis is real.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: JD2012]
    #11787115 - 01/07/10 11:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:  i just want to be able to remember this and referance back to it, hope hes ok and all


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: trashcan]
    #11787331 - 01/08/10 12:09 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

festered said:
We're still waiting for a single properly documented case of sickness from exposure to a common mold resulting from cultivation.

It seems pretty unlikely to me that the OP had anything related to cultivation or even mold exposure.  Since no proper specimens were identified, no conclusive tests were performed, and there is no evidence to indicate it was a mold problem there's also no reason to take precautions indicated for a specific type of exposure.

It would have been a simple matter to get a aflatoxin screen.  So if the symptoms at the time didn't warrant a $100 test then why should he now spend thousands on tests for something he probably wasn't exposed to?


-FF




so why would it have to be a common mold?  out of all the types of substrate, from grains to wood, i would tend to think the contaminates would be broad, limiting this discussion to common molds seems fruitless.

and with a broad range of possible molds, how is it your so sure he never came into contact with them.

and alt ho your opinion may be valued, the only possible affect to readers will be to start railing contam ants, it just seems like your trying to downplay it, when all logic says to stay clear.  no good can come from mold, as far as science goes there are LOTS of questions to be answered, and tests to be done.  just because they haven't been done, doesn't mean we should go around downplaying it with the only possible result is for people to become more relaxed around it and in effect...start railing spores.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11791547 - 01/08/10 06:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

You are constantly exposed to mold in the environment.  You breathe in thousands of spores every minute you are alive.

There's just no evidence to show any greater risk of sickness from cultivation related mold than just living in the same moldy environment that we all do.

Every time someone posts one of these scare stories I encourage them to get proper tests to determine the cause.  If it's really cultivation contams then they are easy to culture with standard media.  All you need to do is culture a bit of mold from your infection and then find the source that exposed you.

Despite people wanting to fearmonger and scare other people, none of these supposed cases have ever been sufficiently scared themselves to ever try to really figure out what the problem is.  They get better and just blame whatever was most convenient.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11792107 - 01/08/10 07:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

ok but here's a few things to consider

1. not all spores will be active
2. its going to be thousands of various spores outside, compared to thousands + of the same kind(per contam) for cult
3. its going to be fresh spores, compared to ones that have traveled vast distances(see #1)


now if im reading your post right it seems your saying that molds do cause illness, but what your debating is weither cultivation increases our risk compared to normal living?

if so, more spores = more contact+fresh spores+ confined spaces+ these spores are sometimes growing on the perfect medium or close to it with zero compitition which could increase potentcy of any toxins

and as far as science and healthcare goes we don't know hardly anything about long term affects for things because its so hard to document.  is it really as simple as getting a swab for cultures?  the molds release toxins right, which can potentially cause various damage that could happen over the long term like cig smokeing ect ect aka very hard to document unless we start selling spores to smoke, and by the way you better not steal that idea from me spore smoking could become very popular down the road lol

oh and i just thought of the perfect example of why the risk of cult is greater than just normal living....RogerRabbit.  he's allergic to oyster spores, which shows an interesting point, im sure he's fine going for a jog through the woods, but obviously cultivation is out of the question.

and it shows another point, oyster spores were perfectly harmless at first, but over time that changed. 

anyways enough of my random ramblings with obviously no scientific backing ect.

but seriously you and me both know how screwed healthcare and science is on the long term, and hell if you have some wacky insurence they might not even run any tests for the short term, oh your feeling sick well there's never been any reported cases of that happening, so here take some advil

oh, and i just thought of one last point, people contract different diseases in different countrys ect ect so it might be rare over here, so maybe there's only a few spores for this disease producing contam floating around in our country and you just happen to carry it in and cult it and poof.  oh and ergot is a mold/fungus to and i hear all kinds of bad things about that stuff, including someone culting it on accident somewhere on these forums


oo, i thought of another good one, they rarely tell people when there sick, but when they give you good doses of penicillium and those other goodys like that, not only do they wipe out your infection, they also wipe out all your good flora in your body.

the same thing could "potentially" happen with all the crazy contams.  and with flora, you might not notice right away, could take years, but evetually it'll catch up.  and there's all kinds of unknown things like that could happen, and would going to a doctor get the tests to figuer out long term stuff? it might not even find short term, science is a growing field.

but at anyrate i do realize you mention getting checked out n all that and that is good advice, but when i read your posts, im left with a message, a message that tries to tell me i don't have anything to worry about when it comes to spores and contams

and that just seems like really bad advice don't you think?  i mean when it comes to health, and there's possible unknowns, in a growing field, don't you think it would be wise to be on the side of caution???  instead of giving people a free pass to rail ergot and black molds?


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11796871 - 01/09/10 03:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

now if im reading your post right it seems your saying that molds do cause illness, but what your debating is weither cultivation increases our risk compared to normal living?




Sure it's possible, just very rare.  Most of the people are associated with SBS, which comes from black molds that rot building wood.

Quote:

but at anyrate i do realize you mention getting checked out n all that and that is good advice, but when i read your posts, im left with a message, a message that tries to tell me i don't have anything to worry about when it comes to spores and contams




Since there's never been a documented case I DON'T think you have anything to worry about.  If it was so bad don't you think people would be getting at least basic tests to find out the problem?

Another issue is people don't even know what they're claiming.  Are they claiming toxins from the spores?  Are they claiming an allergy to spores?  Or are they claiming to actually be infected by these molds?

We don't even know the proper questions, let alone the answers.  And until someone at least nails down a claim with at least some supporting evidence I think it's rather foolish to be worried about it.

The contams we're dealing with are basically bread molds.  So have you ever heard of someone getting sick from bread mold?  Do you know anyone who's actually afraid of moldy bread?

If the answer is no then why would you be afraid of common contams?  Sure it's possible to develop an allergy to any number of molds or fungi (acquired oyster spore allergies being well documented), but I've never heard of a real sickness being developed from bread molds.  And just about everyone on the planet gets occasional exposure to bread mold.

If there's any real danger we'll hear about it sooner or later.  If not we'll just have to listen to the occasional fearmonger or poorly documented jump to conclusions every so often.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11797346 - 01/09/10 04:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

well when i talk about being worried about mold/spores and coming into contact with them im talking any and all dangers, any possible health affects from any possible contaminates during cult ect.

people didn't think smoking was dangerous at first, people didn't think asbestos was bad at first, there's lots of things, and we already know that some molds do produce toxins, we know that inhaling large quantity's of green mold can cause lung problems. we know that people can become allergic to certain spores, an my basic understanding is that people have allergic reactions to things because of some chemical it contains that our body's can't handle or something along those lines, which seems very similar to the toxins put off by such things as black molds to me anyway.  but the vast amount of possible contams, it seems possible just based on chance alone, that other molds produce toxins as well, it also seems possible that there's ones that produce long term affects rather than short term.

and no there not basically bread molds, the major contam of bread mold is penicillium which kills our good flora as well as the bad.  if our body's nature flora becomes unbalanced you will have some various problems, but overall you might never know why as the problems that acquire you might just associate with poor diet, body chemistry/age ect ect.

the molds we see in cult are vastly different, ive never seen a red, brown, or black mold on bread before.

and im not sure why you keep clinging to "common" contams.  there's nothing "common" about a mostly sterile jar of various substrate with various degree's of nutrients, leading to a breeding ground for a numerous number of contaminates....with "bread molds" being the most unlikely thing a person would see.

oh and you rarely see bread eaters opening a loaf of contaminated bread and playing with it in various ways.

and if its long term affects we may never have any definite proof, but its widely known that molds produce chemicals as a defense, we know that some of them do harm us like black molds or at least as far as i know thats still true.

but don't you think a better response around here would be to say something more along the lines of, there's a possibility that breathing in lots of spores is harmful, it would be wise to limit such things, rather than mocking people that do?

and i don't know about anyone else but im not trying to spread fear, just common sense and logic to try and protect your body when possible. 

almost every single thing in life is bad for you if you have to much of it...even water.  i know you love facts, but don't you think your putting yourself at risk to rock out with your cock out as long as there's no facts that say its dangerous "yet"


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11805112 - 01/10/10 09:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

and no there not basically bread molds, the major contam of bread mold is penicillium which kills our good flora as well as the bad.




Well many people here grow with BFR which is a grain flour.  Many others grow with rye, which is no different in composition than rye flour.  So most of the people here are growing with grain flours.  The others are growing with pasteurized substrates, which don't have the same contamination problems.

So yes most of the contams can be considered bread molds.

As far as me mocking anyone, that's just not true.  I may ask them why if they were so worried about the problem they never bothered to get even basic tests to determine if some sort of contaminate was the problem, but that's hardly mocking them.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11805180 - 01/10/10 10:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

i guess thats true about rye, but cult covers a broad range of different types of grains and many other subs.  speaking just from a different grains point of view, i believe different grains are suseptable to different kinds of contams, which is why they develope GMO's to be immune to certain things, ergot for example.

so overall point i guess is that something is different among the subs that may increase or decrease contam chances and types.

as for being considered a bread mold, are red molds, brown molds, black molds, black pin molds, slime molds, ect all considered bread molds?

how often do you see these things?  because in all my life all i have ever seen is blue-green molds on bread.

http://www.shroomery.org/5276/What-are-common-contaminants-of-the-mushroom-culture

lastly, most bread isn't at 60 or 70% water saturation to allow for these various contams.

as for mocking, maybe i didn't pick the best word for it but basically you said "until then we'll have to put up with" such and such people. 

and i don't see where that has anything at all to do with this thread other than to instigate something.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11805378 - 01/10/10 10:47 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We use cereal grains to cultivate, so we get bread molds as contams.

The molds that contaminate cereal grains, or even pasteurized substrates like grazer shit, cannot live at 98.6F and utilize your tissue as a substrate.

So basically we're left with allergies or toxins in the spores.

Allergies can be to anything and you can't really blame the substance, it's your own faulty immune system that causes to problem.  I refuse to fear peanuts because some genetically defective people cannot handle them.

As for toxins in the spores, I doubt that also.  The entire spore load cannot account for even the most minuscule of doses of anything.  If some spore "toxin" can be hundreds of times more potent than rattle snake venom, well then that's more of an allergy than a real toxin since most people have no problem with it.

There's no known toxin that can affect you in the dose you'd get from a regular spore load, or even from the extreme dose you'd get from smelling a contam.

The people that postulate this are asking you to believe that there are toxins 100X more deadly than any that we know of, AND that they are present in common molds, AND that they seem to affect only a tiny percentage of people exposed to them.

Is it really so out of line to expect a tiny smidgen of proof before we start burning down houses to "protect the children"?


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11805572 - 01/10/10 11:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

ok but have you honestly ever seen any of that crap on bread before in a household kitchen?  because i never have except in the contamination forum on this website.  and never in the vast numbers(volume of spores) seen there, not to mention how careless people handle them.

i believe in the case of black molds, its usually substained contact with it, sopposedly you get sick from living in a house for an extended period of time. and weither its an allergy or a toxin doesn't matter, you still end with the same result, the only difference is that you might be allergic, which you'll never know until it happens and you still might never be able to pinpoint it.

and if you had eaten peanuts for the first time and had a severe reaction, wouldn't you be a bit upset or something if nobody warned you?  or that people thought you might have a reaction and infact encouraged you to eat lots of them??

you might not have an allergy so don't worry, go rail that shit up?  they  tell people to use caution with peanuts or any new food....except with spores there isn't any enjoyment involved, so even more caution should be used because there's no point not to, and its not like your going to know which mold it is for sure. and we don't know how long it might take for possible affects to happen, and we don't know how much contact would be needed.

Quote:

There's no known toxin that can affect you in the dose you'd get from a regular spore load, or even from the extreme dose you'd get from smelling a contam.




are you saying that if we took the amount of spores that people come in contact with over a period of time and turn it into snake venom that we wouldn't get sick?  because im sure there's plenty of reckless cults that prolly have grow chambers that look like the appocolypse at one point in time.

if your child was allergic to dogs wouldn't you remove the dogs from the house?  you can't do that with mold so im guessing thats why they burn them down.  and as we know in cult, when you have a contam you toss that shit as fast as possible so it doesn't contaminate the rest...so hence it isn't just for your house, its for everyone else too.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #11809261 - 01/11/10 04:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

are you saying that if we took the amount of spores that people come in contact with over a period of time and turn it into snake venom that we wouldn't get sick?




Let me just make it clear that I'm not telling anyone to snort massive amounts of spores.  That's just plain silly and a good way to potentially develop an allergy.

But even a good sniff of a contam isn't going to generate more than a few milligrams of spores to be inhaled.  It's also pretty rare for any biological component to get above about 5% concentration.

So even if the spores were quite potent in toxin the few milligrams you'd get from smelling a contam should only result in a milligram or two AT MOST of any toxin.  And there are very few known biological agents that can cause problems at that concentration.

So the fear of contam spores is pretty silly IMHO.  There's no reason to be breathing them in large quantities over long periods of time and the amounts one would expect to ingest even smelling contams should never be significant.


-FF

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #11866180 - 01/20/10 02:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Can I take the middle road? NO - don't snort anything and be cautious, but I have never seen a MToxicosis from cultivation - just allergy response from black mold in houses and 1 girl who told me she pigged out on shittakes so bad she made herself allergic. Don't know if that was actually true or maybe even transient - never saw her again...
But Fred's right about try not to panic. Been growing a lot for 12 years and opened some ugly contams without keeling over. Not saying it couldn't happen - better to err on the side of caution probably ~


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: boO]
    #18657447 - 08/04/13 05:53 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

many thanks for sharing your trouble's a lesson for us all , iam hoping you get well very soon ,
muski

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: muski]
    #18694190 - 08/12/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 7 months ago)

Way to gravedig.

I think you also missed the point of the thread.  There has never been a single documented case of mycotoxicosis ever documented in our hobby.  Just plenty of mentally suggestible people looking for something new to blame.  They generate lots of vague reports of how sick they were, but not one of them has ever been sick enough to bother getting a proper diagnosis.

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: fastfred]
    #22585147 - 11/28/15 06:13 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I feel very sick, brain fog, memory troubles, sight troubles (bcz of PC maybe, not mold). headache, eyes stare at 1 point. In my small town ain't nobody going to take me serious and treat me...it's way to grave anyway, if i die because of mold, or if i suicide bcz i can't live like that, i hardly reminiscing what i was doing yesterday or 1 week ago. it's impossible, livin like in dog...kidneys are okay...


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22585148 - 11/28/15 06:13 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

yes i inhaled probably moldy cakes, and ate shrooms from them. no vomiting and shit

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22588866 - 11/29/15 12:00 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

just cakes did you spawn em?

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: foodsgoodtoo]
    #22593664 - 11/30/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

spawn? i ate shrooms 7 times from cakes i THOUGHT was moldy, during this year. everything was good before 6 trip. I was asking, can i eat them, and people said yes, why not, so did i.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22593669 - 11/30/15 07:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Also all of my cakes was fighting good, and gave me 3-4 good waves of shrooms


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22593689 - 11/30/15 07:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

My memory is freaking bad. i can't say what i was doing 1-2 week ago, and even 3 days ago. only noticeable things.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22598193 - 12/01/15 08:52 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I often have a hard time remembering what I did a few days ago too and I don't haw mycotoxicosis.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22607279 - 12/03/15 02:35 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Dude i'm livin in fog. no clear mind since august. want to fell clear again, but no. nothing helped me. idk what really to do. also it's strange feeling, when you don't move for a second or two, you feel numb or stoned or buzzed, idk, hard to explain that feeling. damn it's hard to speak, cause i forget words and confused

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22607746 - 12/03/15 08:04 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I don't know how big a risk mycotoxicosis is , but i Have heard enough horror stories to never consider doing my own grow.

In the end even a small risk of ruining my life with chronic health problems is not worth it for some mushrooms.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Moonshoe]
    #22607931 - 12/03/15 09:11 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Mycotoxosis to the degree of the OP is extreme and rare, but our bodies are teeming with microorganisms and we do little to protect the evolutionary checks and balances that keep us safe from them. It's not uncommon to have bacterial overgrowths, candida, etc that contribute anything from vague symptoms to full blown disease. In fact there are some who suspect they might be responsible for nearly all first world health problems, and for good reason. hard to know what to do without thorough tests or simply experimenting with diet changes though. A highly qualified functional medicine practitioner is ideal though expensive. And like every type of doc you've got to separate those who are legit from those who are just trying to sell products

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: JacksonMetaller]
    #22619929 - 12/06/15 05:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Guys any idea what should i do? i start to forget everything, concentration is very bad. It's looks like mycotoxicosis, but it started somewhere between 5 and 6 trip of shrooms. (5 trip was 1 august, 6 trip was 25 august or so, so 24 days) It's looks like brain damage also. Smart drugs can stimulate my BODY, not mind, i'm using piracetam, encephabol (Pyriditolum), nootropic plants. taking B1 B6 and B12 intramuscular etc.
maybe to try antifungal medicines ? nystatin ?

i'm going to do MRI.


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: LosAndreas36]
    #22638138 - 12/10/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Do you have solid bowel movements once per day? Or do you experience any stomach problems?

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Scaramanga]
    #22646456 - 12/12/15 02:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I do defecate 1 time per day, usually, sometimes use enema, cause of constipation if i detain my defecation. Yes i do. reactive pancreatitis, dyskinesia, enhanced renal pelvis (it's okay) But it's nothing really, pancreatitis is easy to treat on my stage. But my memory so bad i can't remember or learn anything. Mind fog. My memory like on heavy dose of cannabis, when you don't remember what you been doing 1 min ago. But when i smoke cannabis while experience troubles like i do now, i', fucking imbecile lol


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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #26362337 - 12/05/19 07:06 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

can we get an update?

still alive?

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Re: MYCOTOXICOSIS [Re: chillisdinho]
    #26366104 - 12/07/19 12:34 AM (4 years, 3 months ago)

I have coccidioidomycosis (valley fever) that I got while digging crystals in arizona 5 years ago. It almost killed me and my dog. My lungs are still full of the fungus and the shit hurts.

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