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Offlinescatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 11,483
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #3202501 - 10/01/04 12:45 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Pin's containing more actives (even per weight) of larger shrooms is a bad rumor with no proof or research behind it. Caused by improperly dried larger shrooms most likly.

I enjoy the discussion about the deterant/attraction though, I have often thought and pondered which it is myself. I'me for the attraction of tripping to spread spores theory.


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
Lord Of The Idiots!
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #3202712 - 10/01/04 01:47 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

all i have to say is that if i were an animal i would love shrooms(psilowatever) and i'm sure they do as i have seen all my outdoor work go for snacks to nature(not even mad)... but you have no ego to begin with.. so you got nothn' to lose ...and that puts you in a good place... think on that for a min.




chris said it the best when some kid ask what do magik mushrooms do to you?



"anything you want"


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KRAMER CAKES



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Offlineseethe303
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Registered: 12/04/02
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: george castanza]
    #3203189 - 10/01/04 07:21 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

this thread is awesome. great post george.

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InvisibleSweetJimmyBrown
Infidel Zombie
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Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 337
Loc: 'starting north, slowly h...
Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: seethe303]
    #3203234 - 10/01/04 08:02 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

in "Breaking Open the Head" daniel pinchback says offhand that mushrooms were engineerd by aliens (using the 4 indole substitution as an "argument"), placed on a asteroid and sent to earth to aid in human evolution. i'm going with that.

really though, awesome thread.


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Ille dolet vere, qui sine teste dolet.
* * *
I'm as calm as a fruit stand in New york and maybe as strange.
* * *
Simple Grain Recipe

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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: seethe303]
    #3203320 - 10/01/04 08:42 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Some questions for anyone who thinks that the psilocin/psilocybin helps the mushrooms to survive by attracting animals. The questions surely don't have any answers yet, which is kind of the point.

  • Can animals discriminate psilocybian mushrooms from other mushrooms before eating them? (Many people can not...)

  • If so, are they attracted after eating them?

  • If they are attracted, how would eating them actually help the mushrooms to survive?


The last one seems very counter-intuitive to me, as a living mushroom is able to produce a lot of spores which could spread over a large area. An eaten mushroom MIGHT produce mycelium in the few places the animal doo-doos, but I have not seen this proven. In fact, then it would be a bad evolutionary strategy of the mushroom to even eject spores!

I think it would be quite hard to come up with a consistent hypothesis regarding animal attraction. This would then have to include Psilocybe woodlovers, Psilocybe dunglovers, Gymnopilus, Pluteus etc., which are really different in habitat and geographic location. Today I don't think that there is any experimental or observed data that supports this.

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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Pinback]
    #3203372 - 10/01/04 09:01 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Did you read the link I posted? About the flies and the shit? Insects eatting them does spread them....... now whether the intoxication is beneficial, or purposeful is another matter entirely...

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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #3203446 - 10/01/04 09:46 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, I did read it, but I've probably found larvae in every species of mushrooms I've picked, except for chanterelles (they too can be insect infested, but it's not too common). I haven't seen or read anything that shows that psilocybian mushrooms would have more larvae or anything like that. And just as you write, there is nothing indicating that psilocin/psilocybin would be beneficial to them.

I don't really see how insects eating mushrooms would spread spores though. Sure, spores might stick to a flies legs and be transported somewhere else, but I think air currents would do that just as well...

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InvisibleShmoppy McGillicuddy
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Pinback]
    #3204163 - 10/01/04 02:54 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Well, they were probably a mushroom before they were psychoactive, so they spread their spores the normal way, by air currents. However, the ingestion of the fruit bodies by various animals helps to spread it farther, so they do both. It would be silly to not shoot out spores into air, because if they grew in an area without animals present, they would die off.

They are still mushrooms, just with an added advantage of being attractive to animals, and not just hungry animals, as in the case of normal plant fruit.


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OfflineSin Bad
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: absolute zero]
    #3211411 - 10/03/04 09:13 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Animals generally have a much more acute sense of smell than humans, so maybe they could identify the mushrooms more easily than us.

However - are psilocybin mushrooms really more attractive to animals? In the fields where I pick liberty caps, there are lots of sheep, but they tend to leave the mushrooms alone. I often find little islands of long grass with liberty caps in, where the sheep have eaten around the mushrooms.

Based on this evidence, it seems that the psilocybin is working as a detterent rather than attractant.

Psilocybin does not seem to deter flies from laying their eggs in liberty caps, - I always find tiny white larve in my caps.

So - it doens't deter flies, but may possibly deter some vertebrates.

But does their attractiveness to humans really aid their survival? Surely picking a lot of mushrooms will reduce the amount of spores released into the air, as you are reducing the amount of time that the mushroom has to release them.

I am more of the opinion that psilocybin is just a left over bi product of evolution, and that it does not aid the mushrooms survival.

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Sin Bad]
    #3212722 - 10/04/04 04:44 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

you could argue bothways with this one. Mushroom poisons in mushrooms like amanitas, etc, are not fast acting - so are not designed to be deterent - whether an animal/dumb human realises the connection between their kidney and liver failure and the mushrooms they ate two days beforehand doesnt really matter as they will die and will not live on to eat further mushrooms.
I would like to think that the alkaloids are produced to attract human use and therefore aid the mushroom's spore distribution, but id find it easier to reconcile the possibility that it is some kind of deterent - most animals will smell psilocybe mushrooms and then refuse to eat them from the smell alone - they know they arent normal.
There are mushrooms in the conocybe and other families that are thought to contain BOTH psilocybin related alkaloids and possibly those contained in the more poisonous varieties, which suggests that there existence in the mushroom is a possible deterent - whether affective or otherwise.


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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Pinback]
    #3213505 - 10/04/04 11:48 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I don't really see how insects eating mushrooms would spread spores though. Sure, spores might stick to a flies legs and be transported somewhere else, but I think air currents would do that just as well...




The larvae eat the caps... they then grow up, and land on the cow shit.

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OfflineSin Bad
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: absolute zero]
    #3216979 - 10/05/04 01:13 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The "flies being benificial to shrooms" theory only works for shit loving species. What about species such as liberty caps that don't grow in shit?

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Sin Bad]
    #3235085 - 10/08/04 11:15 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

One fascinating possibility is that the alkaloids may serve a function in the mushrooms similar to that of the chemicals in our bodies which are so similar. Could it be possible that Psilocin et al are messenger molecules between cells in the colony?

This function if it is there, would certainly be in tandem with other evolutionary benefits mentioned above. For instance these chemicals may have originated as a simple byproduct of metabolism when a species adapted to a new environment, and then their presence helped the colony survive by increasing communication between the cells. (this is merely speculation)

However it got started, these chemicals are now clearly a way that the mushrooms have adapted to man. They offer us something beautiful and we cultivate them, ensuring their survival.

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Offlinebobmarley4prez
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: shroomydan]
    #3239083 - 10/10/04 12:40 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

see i think that since evolution is a current phenomonon that perhaps the one random mutation to some already existing biochemical pathway caused the production of Psilocybin, and these fungi are just now (since the rise of man) reaping the benifit(who knows when the mutation occured). (once humans are thrown in the mix mutations which make plants/fungi more desireable to humans provide huge boosts in fitness of the organisim because they suddenly have stewards of their survival. just think about how wide spread the spores of P cube have become as a result of their containing Psilocybin) so evolution is working right now and yes Psilocybin does work as an attractive, at least for humans and yes this relationship is benifiting the P cubes. (why Psilocybin is still in other species i dont know, but the Psilocybin trait is forever embeded into the genome of the fungi and as a result they will always flurish in the presence of beaqutifull people)


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Anything above this line is a lie. i do not cultivate psychadelic mushrooms nore do I intend to.

One day I encountered a bufo toad. Since that day I have been instilled with the power of the devil.

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Offlinesolo2hd
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: bobmarley4prez]
    #3247929 - 10/12/04 04:19 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The fact that mushies bruise blue makes me think that the psilocybin is a deterrent... "IM BLUE DONT EAT ME OR ELSE"... what other food turns blue, or is blue to start with? The color blue could be equated with bright colors of poisen arrow frogs, or the yellow and black stripes of bees. In nature it is common for poisonous species to be unusually colored.

Also, I think animals would be able to make the connection between what they ate and how they feel. Think about when you eat some fungus and the feeling you get while your stomach tries to digest them... animals would know something was wrong if they started feeling sick or puking. What are they puking up?? the mushrooms they weren't supposed to eat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there other slower acting poisons out there?

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: absolute zero]
    #3264125 - 10/22/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I would like to add my 2 cents here. Athough I'm not to sure it's along the lines of this thread but close :grin:


I have always believed man ows his entire modern brain to mushrooms and other psyhcoactive plants. It was by consumption of these things that we got mathimatics,complex emotions and art.

And with out this advance we would still be monkeys eating fruit and swinging in the trees

The productoin of Psilocybin was mother natures way of having a symbayatic (I don't know how to spell it) realtionship between man and mushrooms. Just a far streched idea for you:shocked:

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Offlinerdnp2035
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3272957 - 10/24/04 08:06 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Someone cited the spider drug study...here: http://www.missblackwidow.com/drugs.html
The LSD wed is not like the herion web. Actually there is no herion web on this page, although I have seen these pictures elsewhere, maybe one or two got left out. The pot web looks demonic, if bare. The spider did much worse on caffeine than the psychedelics.

Also, I put my two sense on the psilocybin mushroom as enginered to promote evolution in the monkey brain. Radial evolution.

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OfflineBrady
randomizer
Registered: 09/17/04
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3273219 - 10/24/04 09:22 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

ok .. I didn't see any direct point where this would fit into the conversation but I kept having Terrence Mckenna's "stoned ape therory" come into my mind..


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I love to trade , trade with me!

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InvisibleMovingTarget

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 4,825
Loc: temporary
Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: Brady]
    #3275748 - 10/25/04 03:02 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Ok heres my opinion, I dont think it acts as a deterrant as the mushrooms ive picked often have larvae/maggot eggs(im not sure which) inside them, and rabbits are known to eat them too, in fact I read that rabbits can eat the destroying angel with no ill effects.

As for the psilocybin attracting animals to eat. I doubt any animal could link a good trip effect with the mushroom, link bad effects with a mushroom yes, but the tripping? I really doubt it as the animal would be too confused if it really could trip on mushrooms.

The only reasons for psilocybin being present in mushrooms that I can think of is that it either acts as a defence against mold and contaminations etc, or has just appeared by chance and the mushrooms which contain psilocybin happen to be adept enough at surviving to contiunue growing with psicocybin as it effects the mushroom in no bad way.

Or maybe it benefits the mushroom in some other internal way and really has nothing to do with defence from animals or insects at all


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product? [Re: MovingTarget]
    #3275898 - 10/25/04 03:47 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Psilocybin as an evolutionary bi-product?

Sure, and it worked!

What has the mushroom gained from the production of Psilocybin?


#1) It successfully produced something that people like and has been distributed all around the world!

#2) It is now grown all over the world making it one of the most prevalent mushrooms.

#3) Through the production of Psilocybin, It has successfully guaranteed it's survival and the survival of successive generations.

All in all I would call it a successful adaptation!

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