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OfflineMycena
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For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead?
    #2735422 - 05/27/04 05:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

retracted


Edited by Mycena (06/03/04 04:31 AM)


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Offlinedebianlinux
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2736587 - 05/27/04 01:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

<crickets>







I couldn't resist posting just cause we're all dead silent on a pretty interesting subject (to me anyway).

I wonder if the sodium percarbonate is a more stable compound thatn sodium hypochlorite...

Would it not be safer to use the "oxygen bleach" vs. the chlorinated variety as a general cleaner?


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2738113 - 05/27/04 08:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Personally, i'd be slightly wary of the Permangante idea.... often the OTC stuff comes with some good doses of heavy metals...and who knows what the mycelium might do if it encounters manganese particles? if you could find a way to ensure that none would be deposited....
Worth a try, just be a bit careful.

Percarbonate, on the other hand, seems like it would be well worth a try.


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2739088 - 05/27/04 11:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sodium percarbonate turns into sodium carbonate and H2O2 in contact with water, so be sure to watch the pH, or it could get really alkaline, fast. Could work, though....

I don't know about (KMnO4) -- I know a lot of the anti-trichoderma action of bleach is believed to be because of the alkalinity, but if H2O2 works, I don't see why KMnO4 couldn't.... The only way to find out would be to try, but read this, first:

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p6005.htm

I don't know how it will react to the metals.

Peace.

--
Micro


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OfflineMycena
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: micro]
    #2739483 - 05/28/04 12:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

retracted


Edited by Mycena (06/03/04 04:28 AM)


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2740611 - 05/28/04 09:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

if you compare the msds you see that hypochlorite is initially more basic than percarbonate.

interpret that as you will.

micro said:
Quote:


Sodium percarbonate turns into sodium carbonate and H2O2 in contact with water




I would take this to mean that this compound couldn't be much more stable than bleach.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2741471 - 05/28/04 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2743737 - 05/29/04 09:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

how effective is it ?
any test done yet on live mycellia ?
hundreds are routinely using bleach now
and i see no reports of any problems,
personally i think the 'risks' posed by
bleach is greatly exaggerated


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OfflineNoG
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Hippie3]
    #2745121 - 05/29/04 09:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The human body produces hydrogen peroxide in the immune system as the first line of defense against various micro-organisms that have invaded the body. H2O2 has been described in medical literature as a disinfectant, antiseptic, and oxidizer. The human body uses hydrogen peroxide in metabolizing fats, vitamins, minerals, proteins and carbohydrates.

A very high concentration of h202 is posionous but not in the slightest at the level's anyone uses on this forum. unless you dunk your cakes in pure h202 then eat them you will be fine.

i knew the body makes h202 but i copied the bit text at the top so i didnt need to explain.

Later NoG


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OfflineMycena
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Hippie3]
    #2746380 - 05/30/04 12:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

retracted


Edited by Mycena (06/03/04 04:22 AM)


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: NoG]
    #2746596 - 05/30/04 02:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A very high concentration of h202 is posionous but not in the slightest at the level's anyone uses on this forum. unless you dunk your cakes in pure h202 then eat them you will be fine.




H2O2 is also used as a mouthwash -- I believe it states this on the back of the bottle :wink:

Debian -- it's probably pretty close, but it's a good buffer, and should be diluted -- how much, though, I don't know.  Remember, bleach is sold at 3-6% and is further diluted before use.  Something with a pH of 11-12 might kill mycelium.  Just trial and error, I guess, but I'm sure you can look up the pH curve of Na2CO3 online....

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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2753908 - 06/01/04 06:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Peroxyacetic acid;used as a sanitizer in wineries and breweries decomposes to Oxygen and vinegar.Very efffective in low concentrations and does little damage to the myc (little or no bluing) and is non toxic when used correctly
The introduction of cakes into Chlorine bleach will without doubt or room fro question produce chloramines and other organochlorides.These are all poisonous and the ammounts produced by dunking in bleach are unknown.
WR:wexican:


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2755988 - 06/02/04 08:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
The introduction of cakes into Chlorine bleach will without doubt or room fro question produce chloramines and other organochlorides.These are all poisonous and the ammounts produced by dunking in bleach are unknown.
WR:wexican:




i doubt. i question.
i think proof of your claim is required.
can you provide any ?


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Hippie3]
    #2756019 - 06/02/04 09:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You could begin your education on the dangers of organohalides here.It should demonstrate that even in minute concentrations organic material is converted to organochorides by "bleach".A myc cake is a mass of enzymes and other active organic compounds it would be extremely irresponsible to say that this would not occur or to asssume ingestion of said fungi is "safe". Organochorides are persistant in human tisssue and are hepatotoxic even in low dosages.Oxygen based sanitizing agents are much safer in ANY food or water situation where the treated product is to be consumed
WR:wexican:
Chlorinated tap water: Chlorine is a greenish yellow, poisonous, gaseous chemical element with a disagreeable odor, used in bleaching agents, water purification, and various industrial processes and as a lung irritant in chemical warfare. Chlorine has been documented to aggravate asthma, especially in children who make frequent use of chlorinated swimming pools.

Chlorine attacks bacteria in drinking water, but in the process of disinfecting, new chemical compounds of chlorine are created. Chlorine molecules react with otherwise harmless organic material present in the raw water supply, creating a group of chlorinated chemical compounds called trihalomethanes (THMs). THMs are tasteless and odorless, but they are considered human carcinogens. They also depress the central nervous system and can cause damage to the liver and kidneys. These chemicals, also known as organochlorides, do not degrade well and are generally stored in the fatty tissues of the body. Organochlorides can suppress immune system function, interfere with the natural controls of cell growth, and cause mutations by altering DNA. Chlorinated tap water is a skin irritant and can be associated with many types of rashes, including eczema. Chlorinated water can destroy polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E and generate toxins capable of causing free radical damage or oxidation. This might explain why supplementation of the diet with essential fatty acids such as flaxseed oil, evening primrose oil, borage oil, and antioxidants (vitamin E, selenium, and others) helps so many cases of eczema.

*Chlorinated water destroys many of the intestinal flora that help in the digestion of food and protect the body from harmful pathogens. It is not uncommon for chronic digestive disorders as well as chronic skin conditions such as acne, psoriasis, seborrhea, and eczema to clear up or be significantly improved by switching to unchlorinated drinking water and supplementing the diet with lactobacillus acidophilus and bifidus.

Referenced from: Childhood Illness and the Allergy Connection by Zolton Rona, MD






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Edited by whiterasta (06/02/04 09:49 AM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2756235 - 06/02/04 11:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Endometriosis Caused by Organochlorines



Excerpt from Endometriosis Sourcebook

by Mary Lou Ballweg

Since our new of the startling findings of endometriosis in a research monkey colony exposed to dioxin, an environmental pollutant, many women with endometriosis have expressed concern about dioxin exposure. How are we exposed to dioxin? What are the dangers? Can we protect ourselves from it and how? This article is meant to start to answer those questions.

We will also cover the same questions for PCBs since some monkeys in a research colony studied by the Canadian federal government reportedly developed severe endometriosis and impaired fertility following PCB exposure. Also, a German study has found higher levels of PCBs in women with endometriosis and antithyroidal antibodies.

Organochlorines

It is unfortunately entirely possible that other chemicals in addition to dioxin and PCBs could be related to development of endometriosis. Dioxin and PCBs are part of a large group of chemical compounds called organochlorines. Organochlorines are made on purpose or by accident (as a by-product of other processes) by combining with organic substances, usually petrochemicals. Organochlorines began being manufactured and used widely in the 1940s. They were the result of wartimes experiments to create more lethal chemical weapons.

Organochlorides are now found everywhere on earth according to a publication by Greenpeace, the international environmental organization. At least 177 of them have been found in human tissue and fluids in the United States and Canada, including in fat, mother's milk, blood, semen, and breath. They are responsible, researchers believe, for the declining sperm counts of men over the recent decades. They are passed from one generation to the next through the placenta and in breast milk.

Organochlorides are almost completely foreign to nature according to Greenpeace, although some dioxins may be produced in nature in small quantities. Synthetic, human made organochlorides are extremely resistant to breakdown and can take hundreds of years to breakdown completely. Meanwhile, these synthetic organochlorides are taken up and are stored in the fatty tissue of animals and humans. The concentration in fatty tissues increases with time even at low levels of exposure. This process is called bioaccumulation.

To make matters worse, another process, called biomagnification, occurs. As plants and small animals are eaten by larger animals, the amount of toxins consumed by each higher organism increases. For instance, bottom animals and plants in a lake with contaminated sediment are eaten by small fish, which are eaten by bigger fish, which are eaten by seabirds and humans. Humans who eat animal products at the top to the food chain can thus consume significant concentrations of toxins. (Vegetarians consume significantly less, since they're eating at the bottom of the food chain-plants.)

Only a few of the organochlorines have been banned (including PCBs and DDT, but not dioxin)*, but even those that have been banned are still widely prevalent in the environment. This is due partly to the compounds' long life as well as to continued use and dissemination of the compounds illegally or by wind, water and products from countries where the compounds are still legal. The book Whitewash: Exposing the Health and Environmental Danger of Women's Sanitary Products and Disposable Diapers - and What You Can Do About It, by Liz Armstrong and Adrienne Scott (Toronto: HarperCollins, 1992), notes that "hypocritically, we still manufacture DDT in North America for export to other countries."

Greenpeace, which notes that there are 11,000 organochlorines now in commerce, call for a complete ban on organochlorines in its 1991 report "The Product is the Poison: The Case for a Chlorine Phase-Out." The International Joint Commission, a U.S.-Canadian organization established in 1909 to oversee binational concerns related to the Great Lakes, has also stated that "the use of chlorine and its compounds should be avoided in the manufacturing process."

Greenpeace notes that enough is known about the persistence and toxicity of organochlorines as a class to justify a ban but that only a tiny portion of the compound have been subjected to even preliminary hazard assessments. A similar problem was noted at a Medical College of Wisconsin conference, "Health Implications of Great Lakes Pollution." Speakers noted that while more than 70,000 chemicals are in use in industry today, toxicological data exists for only 5,000 to 6,000 of these chemicals, and the data on even these is incomplete.

"Hindsight is always 20/20," the saying goes, but even still it's hard to imagine why so many chemicals were and still are allowed to be produced and disseminated widely in the environment without prior testing to assure safety for humans, animals, and plant life. This widespread dissemination means that every person and animal in the industrialized world (and many in the third world also, since water, wind , and products have spread the contaminants worldwide) has what scientists call a "background" of contaminants they carry in their bodies, from the embryo stage on. Because of this background load, the only way to know what any particular chemical does is to study it under controlled laboratory conditions without exposure to other chemicals. In addition, because the chemicals have bodywide impact and scientists do not yet understand what these impacts are, especially in the incredibly complex immune, reproductive, and nervous systems, they must study the chemicals in animal models.


If you need more "Hippie du trois" I suggest google which will give you thousands of links between organochlorides and chronic conditions of many types as well as the myriad ways they are formed and consumed,as well as the nervous system damage they cause and the liver/kidney effects attributed to them.
I personally would NOT care for a bleached mushroom much less one which has beensaturated in chlorine prior to fruiting.The prescence of organochlorides in the fungus' enzymatic pathways can only produce more novel compounds of likely toxicity.
Peace,
WR:rasta:


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2756991 - 06/02/04 03:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:shrug:


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2757336 - 06/02/04 05:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Heehee....

My 2c: Bleach can definately form chlorine gas, but in very small amounts:
NaOCl+NaCl+H2O => 2NaOH+Cl2. This reaction is much more favorable to the left, especially since an excess of NaOH is added during manufacture. When diluted, though, some Cl2(g) will be made as the eq. will shift somewhat to the right. This would not create much more Cl2(g) than is in ordinary tap water.

Other than that NaOCl turns into NaCl + RO. If you're really that concerned, stop using tap water and don't take any hot showers, and don't ever go swimming in a pool, again (as was broght up here, before.) Honestley, we're talking about pretty small amounts of bleach/chlorinated byproducts absorbed into the fruitbodies. It's too small of an amount to be concerned with, IMO, but, of course it's your prerogative....

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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: micro]
    #2757726 - 06/02/04 07:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

dioxins are toxic in PPB.I use filtered water and NEVER swim in anything but rivers and lakes.I take this subject quite seriously as I, having worked in organic chemistry,have seen the results of organochlorine toxicity first hand. We may be talking about minute quantities,but minute quantities of highly toxic materials.The opportunity to form novel halotryptamines with unknown neural toxicity is without a doubt a possibility.I suppose Hippie's tek users will be the rats who determine the dangers of organohalides in mushrooms grown using bleach.As you say it is a small amount of substances which are probably formed and what's a little dioxin with your sacrament,eh?


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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2762933 - 06/04/04 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)


good post , Dude...


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OfflineNugDumper
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Re: For Hippie3 : why not use Na percarbonate or KMnO3 instead? [Re: Mycena]
    #2762986 - 06/04/04 01:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You should try water, it works wonders.


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