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 infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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 Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241830 - 01/14/04 12:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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would it matter if he was? you cannot force people to pay for things they don't consent to buy in the first place.
there is implicit consent on your part when, knowing where the money for roads comes from (taxes), you still voluntarily choose to use them.
I'm not here to argue about how right taxes are. as long as there have been taxes, there have been people bitching about them. this is nothing new.
I'm simply saying that whether or not you explicity consented to it, you DID receive services from the governenment, services which you used VOLUNTARILY, and so it's not THEFT when they come to you for PAYMENT for services rendered. it's just *slightly* different from a mugging...
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241876 - 01/14/04 01:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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socialist, commies, and assorted other statists... if i may throw you a bone...
nothing you've been putting forth so far holds up to logical scrutiny, and i'll tell you why:
you are trying to justify the taking of someone's property by force. the problem is that until you have an alternative theory of property rights than the one i stated earlier, you cannot justify this. what you need to do is discover a different, but logically defensible theory of property ownership. right now, the ideas i put forth earlier about property rights haven't been succesfully contested. right now, the idea that an individual has as much a right to his justly acquired property as he does to his life is still standing, and until it isn't, you simply cannot justify theft.
an essential foundation of the role of the state which you all profess is that individuals do not have a right to their property. until you can actually prove that, the foundation is incomplete. the only way you can show that the taking of a man's property is not wrong is to show that he never had a right to it in the first place. until you can do that, you may dress up your arguments however you like, but they will not hold up. property rights are the key issue here.
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 Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241889 - 01/14/04 01:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
there is implicit consent on your part when, knowing where the money for roads comes from (taxes), you still voluntarily choose to use them.
there are many that choose not to use them and are still paying, like education, got kids in school, if not then why are you paying taxes for schools?
I'm simply saying that whether or not you explicity consented to it, you DID receive services from the governenment, services which you used VOLUNTARILY, and so it's not THEFT when they come to you for PAYMENT for services rendered. it's just *slightly* different from a mugging...
I've been denied services from the government when my taxes have paid for them, I never recieved unemployment, welfare or any other govt aid when I wasnt working nor have a seen anything reasonable about police services, but I still pay for them.
Edited by Granola (01/14/04 01:16 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241897 - 01/14/04 01:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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there is implicit consent on your part when, knowing where the money for roads comes from (taxes), you still voluntarily choose to use them.
if i didn't own a car, i'd still be paying for the roads. taxation to pay for roads is not presupposed by any "implicit consent".
I'm simply saying that whether or not you explicity consented to it, you DID receive services from the governenment, services which you used VOLUNTARILY, and so it's not THEFT when they come to you for PAYMENT for services rendered.
and the thing that you aren't grasping is that it doesn't matter if i choose to use them. what matters is that i have no choice in whether i wish to pay for them or not.
i say, "hey infidelGOD, i've got a nice set of steak knives i'd like you to buy... $500"
you say, "holy shit mushmaster, i knew you were a filthy capitalist pig, but damn, $500 for a set of steak knives? no fucking way"
i say, "too bad. you don't have a choice in the matter. you're buying these whether you want them or not, understand?"
so you agree to buy them and shell out the $500. you actually end up keeping the steak knives and occasionally even use them. does that make our "transaction" from before ethically sound?
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Granola]
#2241899 - 01/14/04 01:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Genocidal presidents putting our lives in danger, all but wiping out races of people. taking my money without a full accounting, allowing criminals to roam our government buildings and run our country.
yes, all of those things are terrible, and I'm glad you brought up our genocidal president  . should I not have to pay for the war in Iraq because I didn't "consent" to it? you know, the war was paid with TAXPAYER MONEY (some $200billion), whether they consented to it or not, and it was based on some bullshit "evidence". maybe there should be a taxpayer revolt?
alright here's the thing, the government doesn't break down taxes into individual services. (it would take a HUGE beurocracy to do this, and the IRS is big enough as it is!)
you don't get to decide what you'll pay for like:
"I was on the road 14.6 hours this month, so I'll pay this much..."
"I didn't dial 911 or make use of police services this month, so I won't pay this..."
"I didn't consent to giving my money to poor people, so fuck this..."
"I supported the war, so I'll pay this much..."
"I was on the internet 20 hours, so I'll pay this much..."
etc.
some people pay more than their fair share, and some get away with paying less. it depends entirely on your income and consumption, which to some degree, depends on the services you received from the government.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241902 - 01/14/04 01:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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so you agree to buy them and shell out the $500. you actually end up keeping the steak knives and occasionally even use them. does that make our "transaction" from before ethically sound?
no. but it doesn't make it theft either. it's not the equivalent of a mugging as someone suggested. that's all I'm saying.
this whole tax=theft rhetoric is getting reeeaaaal old.
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241907 - 01/14/04 01:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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no. but it doesn't make it theft either.
yes it does. you are taking someone's property without their consent. how is that not theft?
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241912 - 01/14/04 01:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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and btw, you DO have a choice not a pay taxes: just live off the land!
I've known people who did this - they didn't pay income tax!
you know, you could actually BE a rugged individualist instead of just talking about it.
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241928 - 01/14/04 01:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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and btw, you DO have a choice not a pay taxes: just live off the land!
i have a right to work if i want to. another person has a right to pay me to work for them. if we agree to make an exchange of wages or labor, that is nobody's business but ours. we don't need permission from some governing authority. we have a right to engage in voluntary transactions if we so choose. liberty does not just become null and void as soon as there's more than one person involved.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241997 - 01/14/04 02:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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hey if you're living off the land with other people and you want to exchange your tomato for another person's cucumber, no one is going to come and stop you! really. there are communes all over the place around here, and the government don't fuck with them, unless they break the law.
i have a right to work if i want to
you sure do. and if you walked to work everyday, never used the phones, or electrical power, or the internet, or communication sattelites, the sewege system, etc etc, then you would be justified in refusing to pay income taxes, in principle (much like the people in the communes).
however, the reality of the industrialized world is that when you work, you will make use of these services, voluntarily. even if you do not directly use these services, you benefit from them. your job might not even exist if it were not for these services. you might not realize it, or acknowledge it, but you DO take from the system. you have taken from the system all your life, and at any moment, you are free to disengage from the system and cease paying taxes. the CHOICE is yours. but you can't have it both ways - you can't remain in the system and enjoy all the benefits of it, while refusing to pay for it. are you the guy who is always conspicuous by his absence when they bring the check to the table?
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242053 - 01/14/04 02:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
this whole tax=theft rhetoric is getting reeeaaaal old.
It's not taxes in general I see as theft. It's tax money that is used for unconstitutional purposes I consider to be stolen from me.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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It's tax money that is used for unconstitutional purposes I consider to be stolen from me.
I couldn't agree with you more. the $200 billion in taxpayer money used to fund an unconstitutional war based on false evidence can certainly be considered theft.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242091 - 01/14/04 02:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
alright here's the thing, the government doesn't break down taxes into individual services. (it would take a HUGE beurocracy to do this, and the IRS is big enough as it is!)
largest workforce in america, we already have that HUGE beurocracy and maybe it should be put to use.
Quote:
you don't get to decide what you'll pay for like:
thats right because we have government to take it from us.
Quote:
it depends entirely on your income and consumption, which to some degree, depends on the services you received from the government.
your not even close, I recieve no services from the US government so I should be exempt
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242100 - 01/14/04 02:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
It's tax money that is used for unconstitutional purposes I consider to be stolen from me.
I couldn't agree with you more. the $200 billion in taxpayer money used to fund an unconstitutional war based on false evidence can certainly be considered theft.
Well, you may feel that way but the military IS a constitutional use of tax money.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242113 - 01/14/04 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
and btw, you DO have a choice not a pay taxes: just live off the land!
I've known people who did this - they didn't pay income tax!
did they squat that land because if they owned it they are paying the property tax, if they sell anything produced their are subject to income tax. they are also still required to file even if they made nothing.
pay 30k for a car including tax tag and title. title is paid for onece, tag is anual, sales tax is one pay but then they get you with 'advelorum tax' each year. Tag $20 advelorum $475. so that little tax is based on the value of your car done just like property tax, who sets the value and why if when my car depreciates my adv tax sometims goes up and sometimes stays the same.
Edited by Granola (01/14/04 02:48 PM)
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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for DEFENSE.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242119 - 01/14/04 02:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
for DEFENSE.
Good point. Sadly, they failed to define defense.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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I guess if "putting at ease irrational fears about (non-existent) Iraq WMD" is a defensive action, then it was justified. lol.
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TheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242150 - 01/14/04 02:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
I guess if "putting at ease irrational fears about (non-existent) Iraq WMD" is a defensive action, then it was justified. lol.
If the majority of the nation was for the war, as it was, and our commander in cheif was for the war ,as he was, and the Constitution makes provisions for use of tax-payer money for warfare, which is does, then the war is legal. The Constitution doesn't make definition about what makes a "War" legal, if any legislative body did such a thing, it would be the World Court.
However, taking money to pay for social programs probably isn't wanted by the majority of the nation, the leader of the nation, and no provisions are made for it in the Constitution.
That is the real issue.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242152 - 01/14/04 02:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are those who would argue just that. And in some cases they could even be correct.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
-----------------------------------
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