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 luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Sorry but he's got you. Give up with dignity still attached.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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If I gave up, there would be no dignity in it.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Anyone who feels that because the tax money is taken out before you get your check, you aren't paying taxes should perhaps re-evaluate the meaning of the word dignity.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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 Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 47
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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silversoul7 said:
Quote:
No, you agree to it when you sign the paperwork at a job, not when they take money.
Your powers of mind reading are inadequate for the task of determining what I agree to. All I agree to is that it would be unhealthy to resist the overwhelming force of the government as it is used to keep my full earnings from me. I'll repeat, I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
Quote:
You earn what you get, not what the government gets.
Incorrect, I earn all my before tax income. The government takes some and leaves me the rest. If I were not EARNING IT, the government would not be able to get any of it, for there would be no income to extort. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp...
Has your education been through state-run schools? That may explain some things...
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No masters, no servants.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2240286 - 01/13/04 07:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anarkhos said:
silversoul7 said:
Quote:
No, you agree to it when you sign the paperwork at a job, not when they take money.
Your powers of mind reading are inadequate for the task of determining what I agree to. All I agree to is that it would be unhealthy to resist the overwhelming force of the government as it is used to keep my full earnings from me. I'll repeat, I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
No, you agree to it in the sense that it is a condition of your employment. You may not like it, but by signing the papers, you're agreeing to it.
Quote:
Quote:
You earn what you get, not what the government gets.
Incorrect, I earn all my before tax income. The government takes some and leaves me the rest. If I were not EARNING IT, the government would not be able to get any of it, for there would be no income to extort. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp...
Has your education been through state-run schools? That may explain some things...
Actually, I go to a private liberal arts school. And no, your income before taxes is not what you earn, but rather what your employer is spending on you. So your employer gives a certain percent to the government and the rest to you.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 47
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
No, you agree to it in the sense that it is a condition of your employment. You may not like it, but by signing the papers, you're agreeing to it.
Try to read S-L-O-W-L-Y, I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted. It is the same thing as if a person calling himself MR. IRS were to accost you on the street and demand money or threaten to handcuff you to an immovable object. If you offer enough resistance, he will shoot you. A condition of your remaining physically free and injury free requires that you give him your money. I will not ask you if you understand, because it is apparent that you do not. The preceding illustration is for the benefit of those who can think outside your box.
Quote:
Actually, I go to a private liberal arts school.
How about before that?
Quote:
And no, your income before taxes is not what you earn, but rather what your employer is spending on you.
As an employer, I can tell you that you are woefully ignorant. What an employer spends on you is quite a bit more than your income before taxes. When I hire someone, I do not calculate what his or her tax bracket will be, nor do I care how many exemptions he will use in tax filing, that is something he must work out with the government. From an employer's perspective, you must be able to earn all the expenses required to keep you on the payroll, otherwise there is no point in hiring you. This includes the employer's portion of Social Security taxes, mandatory insurances as well as health insurance, vacation and sick pay and any materials, office space and training needed for you to do your job. The cost of ALL OF THESE must be earned by an employee or the employee is not worth keeping from a business perspective.
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No masters, no servants.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2240854 - 01/14/04 02:35 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Don't worry. Enough of us have the ability to follow along.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Anonymous
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You pay taxes in exchange for government services
in some cases that is correct, but the exchange is not voluntary. I have no right to start a watch company and force people to buy my watches.
and they only take a certain percent of your income
yes, but it is still some of your property, and it is still more of your property than you have consented to give them.
that's before you get it, so in a way, it's not even yours.
what matters is that property is seized during a transaction. if it's not yours yet, it's still the property of the other party, and it's being seized from them. the fact remains that someone's property is still being taken without permission.
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Anonymous
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The mob doesn't care how much money you're making, so this might be a good analogy if there was a flat tax.
extortion rackets often times are based on percentages, so it's actually a fine analogy, and the actual means of determining the different rates of taxation is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not taxes are voluntary. the principle is the same. lets say you own and operate a bar, and some racketeers come along and tell you that you gotta give 'em $500 a week for "protection". of course, you only have to pay them if you want to run your bar. voluntary and consensual?
Basically, when you get a job, you know very well that what you're going to be making isn't really such-and-such amount of money, but rather such-and-such amount minus taxes, and you agree to work for that amount. Similarly, when you buy something at a store, you factor in sales tax before buying something. It's a consensual agreement. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't have a job.
it's not consensual at all. saying "you only have to pay income tax if you want to engage in transactions. it's a consensual agreement" is like saying, "if an armed mugger robs you at gunpoint, you only have to give him your wallet if you want to live. it's a consensual agreement". you have the same right to your liberty as you do to your life, and liberty includes the freedom to make voluntary transactions with other people. like your life, it is not a privilige granted to you by the powers that be in return for your obedience and timely payments; it is a right.
you have a right to work, and your employer has a right to pay you. there is no reason why either of you should have to pay someone for permission to make this transaction.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2241404 - 01/14/04 10:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
equating taxation to a mugging? yeah that's logical..
what services did the thug provide for you? is he demanding payment for something (police services perhaps  )?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2241422 - 01/14/04 10:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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in some cases that is correct, but the exchange is not voluntary.
But you admit to driving on roads and I presume you'd expect the police or fire service to provide a service to you?
All these come out of tax dollars. You say it's not "voluntary" and yet you still expect to use services paid for by tax.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
With taxes, there is an understanding. You pay taxes in exchange for government services, and they only take a certain percent of your income, and that's before you get it, so in a way, it's not even yours.
I pay taxes for the government services, I was the victim of 3 burglaries and the shooting of some livestock within a 6 week period, those services consisted of pissing around before they came to my house 2 hours later, filling out a police report and driving away, they inquired about nothing. Do you have any enemies? Who you have someone you suspect may have done it. Where are my services if these questions arent asked. Should I be paying my taxes if I dont get the services?
Maybe my taxes should be paid directly to the police. There is still no investigation, I still have in my posession evidence that links to the person that committed the crime, license plate, tire tracks, fingerprints, everything that would get a conviction but they are uninterested in making me anything more than a statistic in the unsolved crimes cases. interestingly enough the same PD has a 120% solve rate on homicide?
What has the government done for you, I see nothing on my end. I can educate my children better, make a better living without them and provide my own protection as well as solve my own crimes in a timely fashion, I fee like I'm paying the 'slack mafia' for protection, at least with the italians I wont have to worry about it being 'unsolved'.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241654 - 01/14/04 11:56 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
equating taxation to a mugging? yeah that's logical..
what services did the thug provide for you? is he demanding payment for something (police services perhaps )?
the analogy, it actualy does work. what do they really do for you.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Granola]
#2241675 - 01/14/04 12:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'll just say this:
if the government has TRULY done NOTHING for you. you would be justified in refusing to pay taxes.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
#2241705 - 01/14/04 12:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said:
in some cases that is correct, but the exchange is not voluntary.
But you admit to driving on roads and I presume you'd expect the police or fire service to provide a service to you?
the states built them and the feds stepped in saying. "we collect all this cash and need to show something for it, so states, we'll give you money to expand and introduce commerce and later we'll cut off the money for expansion and repairs if you dont do as we say."
Quote:
All these come out of tax dollars. You say it's not "voluntary" and yet you still expect to use services paid for by tax.
yes the states are organized in their their interaction we could do without the majority of big government, military and other things play a major factor but the majority of this crap we dont need including cops that dont investigate, politicians that steal, paying NATO or the UN, and enough pet projects to infest a whores pubes.
Private companies can do it through the states and if the job isnt done right or the delay too mush they get replaced and sued by the states. The US Government is supposed to be the meetings for the states for inter cooperation. nothing more.
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241755 - 01/14/04 12:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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what services did the thug provide for you? is he demanding payment for something (police services perhaps )?
would it matter if he was? you cannot force people to pay for things they don't consent to buy in the first place.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241757 - 01/14/04 12:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
I'll just say this:
if the government has TRULY done NOTHING for you. you would be justified in refusing to pay taxes.
Genocidal presidents putting our lives in danger, all but wiping out races of people. taking my money without a full accounting, allowing criminals to roam our government buildings and run our country.
yep, they have done alot for me. harrassed my because of looks, what I drive, what I choose to say or do. what do you think they do for me
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
#2241769 - 01/14/04 12:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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But you admit to driving on roads and I presume you'd expect the police or fire service to provide a service to you?
All these come out of tax dollars. You say it's not "voluntary" and yet you still expect to use services paid for by tax.
1. whether someone uses these services or not, they still have to pay for them. a person's tax burden has got nothing to do with which government services they actually use. it is therefore illogical to base the justness of a person's tax burden on the services they use or do not use; the two are unrelated.
2. the government may provide services for a fee, but you do not get to choose whether or not you get to buy them. if you are forcing someone to pay for a product, it doesn't matter how useful you think the product is, or what a sweet deal the people are getting, or how great the service you are providing is... what matters is that they must consent to purchase it. i cannot force you to buy something. i cannot offer you a watch, and then require you to purchase it under threat of force. forcing someone to pay for something they do not consent to pay for is theft. it matters not if the government provides a service in return for taxes.
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2241793 - 01/14/04 12:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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if the government has TRULY done NOTHING for you. you would be justified in refusing to pay taxes.
what if you use very few government services... should you then be only subject to a minimal tax? should you only be taxed to pay for government services that you actually volunteer to pay for and use?
i think so. but then that isn't how government works. that's how business works.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
No, you agree to it in the sense that it is a condition of your employment. You may not like it, but by signing the papers, you're agreeing to it.
under duress through coercion. a monk in 16th century russia was forced to confess to a crime. I forget his name but he signed F.C. after his name, it ment made to confess and as my latin sucks I cant tell you the term used, I learned it in law class in 9th grade so I forgot most of the details.
hwen you sign no paperwork and are expected to file a 1099 each year as you are being paid all of your wages and none are deducted by your employer is it fair? others have it deducted and sub-contractors dont, are you still responsible for the tax liability?
Quote:
Incorrect, I earn all my before tax income.
income is earned by companies, wages are earned by people.
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