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Anonymous
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Forced labor is okay to a point, but what we're talking about is not forced labor. what we're talking about is taxes (I think). Taxes are based on the amount of money you choose to make.
what we were talking about was taking the product of someone's labor. your property represents a part of your life. it is your past. in the past, you expended productive effort to create the property you now own. you have as much of a right to your past (your property) as you do to your present (your liberty) and to your future (your life). but hey, you support involuntary servitude, so at least you're being consistant.
why should anyone have a higher claim on your own life than you do?
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 Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
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 Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2239187 - 01/13/04 11:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry, the analogy just doesn't fit.
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Anonymous
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it does.
your time and capacity to act are conditions of your life, and as such, you have the highest claim on them. you can do what you want. you can spend your time how you want. to deny this is to say that someone has a higher claim on your life than you do. if you choose to use your time and capacity to act in such a way that you produce something, the thing that you have produced is as much yours as that which you expended to produce it. your property represents a portion of your life. you have given some of your life to produce that property; it is as much your own as your own life.
when you take the roofer's $500, you are taking yesterday. when you force him to build a roof, you are taking today.
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Anarkhos
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2239269 - 01/13/04 12:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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No masters, no servants.
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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2239334 - 01/13/04 12:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anarkhos said:
Taxes are based on the amount of money you choose to make.
If you have just cashed your check and pocketed all the money and I come up and rob you, isn't the amount of money robbed from you based upon the amount of money you choose to make?
No, it's based on you having a gun and me not wanting to die. A robber's going to take all the money I have whether it's $5 or $5,000.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
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Have you ever tried to resist armed government agents? Check out the The Whack'em & Stack'em Files to read some stories about how the government treats taxpayers (and everyone else).
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No masters, no servants.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2239725 - 01/13/04 03:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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With taxes, there is an understanding. You pay taxes in exchange for government services, and they only take a certain percent of your income, and that's before you get it, so in a way, it's not even yours.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
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The mob calls the same thing, 'protection money.' There is no difference except in legal terminology (well, the mob does a better job of protecting you).
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No masters, no servants.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2239774 - 01/13/04 03:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The mob doesn't care how much money you're making, so this might be a good analogy if there was a flat tax.
Basically, when you get a job, you know very well that what you're going to be making isn't really such-and-such amount of money, but rather such-and-such amount minus taxes, and you agree to work for that amount. Similarly, when you buy something at a store, you factor in sales tax before buying something. It's a consensual agreement. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't have a job.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
It's a consensual agreement. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't have a job.
Just like a kid who get's his lunch money stolen everyday by bullies? If he didn't voluntarily take money to school, no one would take it from him, therefore it is consensual?
So a woman is threatened with being beaten up or stabbed if she doesn't have sex with someone, if she then agrees to have sex it's consensual?
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No masters, no servants.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
It's a consensual agreement.
Pay or go to jail is a consensual agreement? Something else your learned from a professor?
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2239959 - 01/13/04 04:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anarkhos said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
It's a consensual agreement. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't have a job.
Just like a kid who get's his lunch money stolen everyday by bullies? If he didn't voluntarily take money to school, no one would take it from him, therefore it is consensual?
Apples and oranges. If you take a job, they tell you what you're going to get paid, and you factor taxes into it. Therefore, you agree when taking a job that you are going to work for the amount of money left after taxes.
Quote:
So a woman is threatened with being beaten up or stabbed if she doesn't have sex with someone, if she then agrees to have sex it's consensual?
Another shitty analogy.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
It's a consensual agreement.
Pay or go to jail is a consensual agreement? Something else your learned from a professor?
It's not something you pay. It's something that comes out of your paycheck before it even becomes yours. And no, I didn't learn if from a professor(let it go--seriously). I'm using a thing called logic. You should try it sometime.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Demand a refund.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 47
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
It's not something you pay. It's something that comes out of your paycheck before it even becomes yours.
Wrong. The money must be earned BY YOU before your employer credits it to you. Your employer is then threatened by the government to withhold your earnings from your paycheck.
Quote:
I'm using a thing called logic.
No you aren't, you are using something called rationalization.
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No masters, no servants.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2239998 - 01/13/04 05:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anarkhos said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
It's not something you pay. It's something that comes out of your paycheck before it even becomes yours.
Wrong. The money must be earned BY YOU before your employer credits it to you. Your employer is then threatened by the government to withhold your earnings from your paycheck.
"Earned" is a loaded term. You "earn" what you agree to earn, and when you agree to it, it comes with an understanding between you, your employer, and the government that a certain percentage of it is not yours, but the government's.
Quote:
Quote:
I'm using a thing called logic.
No you aren't, you are using something called rationalization.
Call it what you will, but no one coerces you into taking a job(except maybe your parents or landlord).
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 20,727
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Call it what you will, but no one coerces you into taking a job
Self respect. Some of us prefer not to mooch. Hence..... a job.
Seriously, demand a refund.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 47
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
"Earned" is a loaded term.
Having trouble with the English language?
Quote:
You "earn" what you agree to earn, and when you agree to it, it comes with an understanding between you, your employer, and the government that a certain percentage of it is not yours, but the government's.
The understanding is that the overwhelming force of the government will be used to keep my full earnings from me. I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
Quote:
Call it what you will, but no one coerces you into taking a job.
No, no one coerces me into taking a job. Do you always use straw men in your arguments? The coercion takes place when I attempt to get renumeration for my efforts expended for the employer. The employer is coerced into withholding part of my earnings as well as paying fees to the government for the act of employing me.
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No masters, no servants.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Who said anything about mooching. You could choose to starve, or to steal, sell drugs, or enter some other illegal business which isn't taxed. You could become a priest or monk and not pay taxes(of course, the collection plate could be considered mooching). There's a whole world of options out there.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Anarkhos]
#2240023 - 01/13/04 05:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anarkhos said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
"Earned" is a loaded term.
Having trouble with the English language?
No, are you?
Quote:
Quote:
You "earn" what you agree to earn, and when you agree to it, it comes with an understanding between you, your employer, and the government that a certain percentage of it is not yours, but the government's.
The understanding is that the overwhelming force of the government will be used to keep my full earnings from me. I only agree to it to the extent that a victim agrees to hand his wallet over to a thug, lest he be physically accosted.
No, you agree to it when you sign the paperwork at a job, not when they take money.
Quote:
Quote:
Call it what you will, but no one coerces you into taking a job.
No, no one coerces me into taking a job. Do you always use straw men in your arguments? The coercion takes place when I attempt to get renumeration for my efforts expended for the employer. The employer is coerced into withholding part of my earnings as well as paying fees to the government for the act of employing me.
You earn what you get, not what the government gets.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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