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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22322944 - 10/02/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Or go bankrupt if they get sick.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22323066 - 10/02/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22323069 - 10/02/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




Not even close to regulated enough.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22323171 - 10/02/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




My point exactly with eye surgery, no govt, no insurance companies, and all we've seen is the cost plummet, and the price of all the HEAVILY REGULATED and SUBSIDIZED services keep going up...


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22324048 - 10/02/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22324218 - 10/02/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.




So why does the price of eye surgery and other cosmetic surgery NOT covered by insurance or regulated by the govt keep going down???


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22324593 - 10/02/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.




So why does the price of eye surgery and other cosmetic surgery NOT covered by insurance or regulated by the govt keep going down???




The price of all surgeries goes down as the technology matures. The latest and greatest procedures are always expensive.

Eye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22324819 - 10/02/15 05:32 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.





Or covered by Medicaid or Medicare, I figured you were smart enough to know what was meant, I guess not...


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22325412 - 10/02/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22325450 - 10/02/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.




Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22325456 - 10/02/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.





Or covered by Medicaid or Medicare, I figured you were smart enough to know what was meant, I guess not...




Insurance aside, everything medical is highly regulated by the government. Medicaid and Medicare don't have anything to do with what I said.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22325499 - 10/02/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.




Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22325958 - 10/02/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.




By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




That's not the same logic at all. There was actual logic behind what I said, several times. I discussed the reason why Capitalism leads to corporate fascism. There is no necessity for Socialism to lead to Communism. Either way, we've never seen Communism as Marx described it. Communism isn't meant to have a centralized power structure.

In fact, there is even a Libertarian/Anarchist strain of Communist ideology.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,752
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22326122 - 10/02/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22326170 - 10/02/15 10:18 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.




Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?  An elitist ruling class that owned everything, and everyone else a peasant working for the government?  Its the same thing, it has nothing to do with Capitalist or Socialist Governments.  It has to do with government getting so big it is beyond the control of the people.  It's called STATISM.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326194 - 10/02/15 10:24 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

What condition am I describing?


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22326197 - 10/02/15 10:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Cronyism.  SOrry, I knew I was unclear as to the reference. My bad.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326199 - 10/02/15 10:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.




Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?  An elitist ruling class that owned everything, and everyone else a peasant working for the government?  Its the same thing, it has nothing to do with Capitalist or Socialist Governments.  It has to do with government getting so big it is beyond the control of the people.  It's called STATISM.




Not quite. Soviet Russia was brought about via violent revolution, and skipped over Communism. In order for Socialism to work, it must be implemented democratically, and it must arise from a mature Capitalist society. Then from Socialism, Marx postulated that Communism would be the ideal end result, but would not necessarily ever come to be.

I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Socialism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326209 - 10/02/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Cronyism existed in the USSR because Stalinism was never communism.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22326245 - 10/02/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:


I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Socialism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.




I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Capitalism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.

You see, it works both ways.


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