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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Why don't market forces work for healthcare?
    #22314409 - 09/30/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22314561 - 09/30/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22314601 - 09/30/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.




I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient. I'm actually trying to express a failure of free market ideology, because it doesn't apply to markets with inflexible demand.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22314694 - 09/30/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

A long and complicated subject for sure, the truth is we haven't had a privatized healthcare system in a looooong time. So for those that say it doesn't work, well, how do you know?

A great example of how capitalism has reduced medical costs is eye surgery, because it is not covered by insurance, there is actually a relationship between the provider and the recipient. When first introduced, it was prohibitively expensive, like 20,000$, now you can get it done for under a grand... No health insurance, no govt intrusion, strictly a doctor and his patient. It works very well...

The fact is once you introduce middleman into the doctor patient relationship, costs go up, and quality of care goes down... I've know many Canadians and most don't care for socialized medicine, if it's not an emergency, be prepared to wait a Looooooong time to see a doctor... And those who can afford it, still come to America for medical procedures.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22315033 - 09/30/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.




I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient. I'm actually trying to express a failure of free market ideology, because it doesn't apply to markets with inflexible demand.




I thought you were looking for the excuse :wink:

But yeah, I agree.  To take HU's lasik example.  Yes, single payer is a good model, rather it's the individual or the government.  Middle-men just skim off the top.  However he seems to be attributing all of the lowered cost to the single payer model while ignoring factors like improved methods lowering liability, improved manufacturing, mass production, etc. etc.  He's also ignoring the viability of a single payer model in which the transaction is between the government and the doctor rather than the patient and the doctor.

Anyway, lol, you know where I stand on this.  But the argument I've often heard is pretty much exactly what came out of HU's mouth.  The market isn't 'free' enough so how would we know?  And, it worked before medicare and medicaid fucked it all up!


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22315203 - 09/30/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

I never said anything about Medicare or Medicaid...(not that facts matter to liberals)

I merely pointed out that none of has even seen anything close to "capitalistic healthcare system" as Bigbaldwoof called it...

And how In the hell did I attribute any lower costs to single payer? Do you even read what was written? Or just see a con and ATTACK!?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22316121 - 09/30/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I'm sorry.  I was talking out of my ass.

Anyway I think we agree that insurance companies are a problem.

But I don't think what you said refuted bbws demand problem.  Even in a free market healthcare is inelastic.  Look at the recent case with that prescription drug price increase.  Even without insurance market pressure does nothing to reduce the demand.

It becomes very easy to corner small markets and extort sick people.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22316821 - 09/30/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I never said anything about Medicare or Medicaid...(not that facts matter to liberals)

I merely pointed out that none of has even seen anything close to "capitalistic healthcare system" as Bigbaldwoof called it...

And how In the hell did I attribute any lower costs to single payer? Do you even read what was written? Or just see a con and ATTACK!?




I understand what you're saying. The only problem that I have is that market forces don't apply to inflexible demand, because the demand side has to fluctuate for the 'invisible hand' to play any sort of role.

As far as the market not being free enough, my argument is that Capitalist forces are the reason it is not free, as Marx predicted quite accurately. It's called 'rent-seeking', and it occurs when two conditions are met: when a business grows to such a proportion that it is capable of corrupting the political system, and when the market matures enough that it is more profitable to game the system via corrupting the government, than it is to actually try to outcompete other companies. Either that, or if a company has already monopolized the market, and wishes to continue growth, they look to government.

Corruption is a symptom of a mature Capitalist society. Marx predicted the wealth disparity and corruption that we have today. He was right.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22316901 - 09/30/15 11:55 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Has anyone heard about the collapse of the Obamacare Exchange in NY?  It's one of the last ones, and several others are collasing, the administration refuses to release information on which ones are deeply in red.

You see, how the exchanges where set up, obama got good old socialists and radicals who he had worked with as a community organizer and allowed them to set up the exchanges.  Of course, not knowing what they were doing, they are collasing due to not understanding risk evaluation and actuary tables and methods.


SO what we need is 'single payer' and have these same fucking morons running the show, right?

every swinging dick in the US had access to healthcare.  people without means had the ability to use public hospitals, etc.  Of course the conditions werent as good and they didn't get top tier treatment, nonetheless they did have basic and emergency healthcare.  Now we have increased costs for everyone, and 100,000 people are losing their healthcare.  And boy, you should see some of the rate increases for next year. 

DUHHHHH....but we need single payer.... :tard:

OK, I will make an admission..  When I was married, my wife had our daugher in a Japanese hospital.  We had US military coverage, and also my wife had japanese coverage because EVERYONE IN JAPAN WHO HAS COVERAGE PAYS IN A FIXED AMOUNt.  No freebies.  its required.  ANd we paid a fixed cost of $500 for my wife to have our daughter.  It wasn't too bad.  I remember thinking THAT system wasn't too bad.

But also the cost...in Japan there is no tort and suing doctors for anything.  A) Trial lawyers in the US are one of the prime reasons for high healthcare costs.  B) People dont take kids to the doctor for a tiny scratch on their hand, etc.  Coverage is for necessary problems.  The US system is abused by people seeing doctors for non-important problems..


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22317621 - 10/01/15 07:03 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Can you backup A with a source?  I know liability insurance covers a lot of lawsuits.

B I disagree with.  Maybe when a kid is small parents will freak out everytime they have a temperature or get a scratch, especially new parents.  But even when healthcare is free it still takes time and possibly time off work (which does cost money) to take a kid in to see the doctor.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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OnlineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22317856 - 10/01/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Single payer is a lot simpler than what we have now, star. If your hesitation is because "liberals are gonna screw it up," I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are far more liberal politicians abroad screwing it up much less than we are.


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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22319138 - 10/01/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlineqman
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22319206 - 10/01/15 01:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.




"The ACA is a right-wing plan"

It's a crony capitalist plan, I think it's also called "Obama Care".  Is Obama and all the D's "right-wing" or just sellouts?  :lol:

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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: qman]
    #22319577 - 10/01/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.




"The ACA is a right-wing plan"

It's a crony capitalist plan, I think it's also called "Obama Care".  Is Obama and all the D's "right-wing" or just sellouts?  :lol:




What has Obama done that was left-wing? He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations, continued the patriot act, torture, military conquest, he signed the TPP... he talks like a lefty, but his actions are the same shit Romney would have done, and he same shit George Bush did do.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22319621 - 10/01/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22319668 - 10/01/15 03:29 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Yup.  They're all in the pockets of somebody.  Just different somebodies.

Well all but Sanders and Trump if he ends up elected.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley

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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22320279 - 10/01/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...




You're right. The reason I call Obama a right winger is because he operates on behalf of big business, instead of regarding the interests of the people. Left-wing politics is supposed to be based on populism.

That's why Obama has to lie, and say he's going to do things that he doesn't do, and Republicans can tell you straight to your face "I'm going to cut taxes on the wealthy, I'm going to cut government programs, I'm going to get rid of the minimum wage, I'm going to get rid of Pell Grants and public education, I'm going to torture people and refuse them a trial, I'm going to spy on you for your safety, and I'm going to bomb whoever the fuck I want etc."

By the way, just so you're aware, Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, and raised them for the middle class. He raised taxes more times than he cut taxes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/01/15 06:05 PM)

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22320807 - 10/01/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?





well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:







--------------------

Edited by starfire_xes (10/01/15 07:44 PM)

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Offlineqman
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22321146 - 10/01/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...




You're right. The reason I call Obama a right winger is because he operates on behalf of big business, instead of regarding the interests of the people. Left-wing politics is supposed to be based on populism.

That's why Obama has to lie, and say he's going to do things that he doesn't do, and Republicans can tell you straight to your face "I'm going to cut taxes on the wealthy, I'm going to cut government programs, I'm going to get rid of the minimum wage, I'm going to get rid of Pell Grants and public education, I'm going to torture people and refuse them a trial, I'm going to spy on you for your safety, and I'm going to bomb whoever the fuck I want etc."

By the way, just so you're aware, Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, and raised them for the middle class. He raised taxes more times than he cut taxes.




"I call Obama a right winger"

We know he's a true liberal at heart, what do you think what would have happened if he betrayed his owners?

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OnlineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22321637 - 10/01/15 11:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?





well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:










Nope. The reason there was so much support for the ACA in the first place is because the Capitalist system wasn't working. The problem with the ACA is that it is too Capitalist. We need a Socialist program, like the rest of the world, so that people don't have to go to Canada to buy prescription drugs.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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