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 infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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 Re: The American poor. [Re: Granola]
#2242158 - 01/14/04 02:54 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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did they squat that land because if they owned it they are paying the property tax, if they sell anything produced their are subject to income tax.
hey you know where property taxes go, right? they go to local governments to provide basic local services like landscaping, sewage, garbage-pickup, etc. still say you don't use any government services (local or federal)?
and as I said, the man living off the land pays no income tax, I didn't say he paid no taxes at all. he still goes down to the store to get things, tools and stuff and he pays sales tax. are you gonna complain about sales tax next?
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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taking money to pay for social programs probably isn't wanted by the majority of the nation
are you sure about that? first you would have to define "social programs". I don't know what this would include.. but I'm only for basic welfare - so we don't have throngs of desperate, hungry people out there. I want the government to provide for the basics, nothing more. I think most Americans would agree with this.
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 Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242207 - 01/14/04 03:17 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
infidelGOD said:
hey you know where property taxes go, right? they go to local governments to provide basic local services like landscaping, sewage, garbage-pickup, etc. still say you don't use any government services (local or federal)?
they arent landscaping my yard or picking up my trash and since I'm on septic it doesnt pay that either. Sewage is actualy billed on your waterbill.
Quote:
and as I said, the man living off the land pays no income tax, I didn't say he paid no taxes at all. he still goes down to the store to get things, tools and stuff and he pays sales tax. are you gonna complain about sales tax next?
I said he was required to file income tax forms, nothing about sales tax except as an example of just where you are taxed and how often, more than half of the average check is paid in taxes.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242225 - 01/14/04 03:22 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I think most Americans would agree with this.
I'd be surprised if that were true seeing as most Americans IMO only care about themslves and what they can get right now.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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JuanMatus
Stranger
Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 28
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Here is one American who has rethought the issue. I used to believe that what is mine is mine, but have looked the issue over and now believe differently. First off I was a Manager in a manufacturing facility and my employer (cheap bastard that he was) paid bare minimum wages, knowing that the government would have to subsidize his workers with housing food, healthcare etc. now this allowed him to produce a greater profit for him (he didn't pay me too well either). now my point here is that we do not live in a vacuum, what we do as individuals affects those around us. subsidising education helps the poor child whos parents can't afford an education, but it also increases the likelyhood that he won't become a thug and kill you some night for your wallet. thus decreasing the need for pigs to patrol your streets and abuse you too. his wages when he graduates from school also helps to support the infrastructure that we all depend on. roads sewers water supplies would be rather expensive if we each had to build our own, also not very convenient. my point here is that no man is an island
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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I see it this way: the people might not want massive "social programs" to help the poor, but they are willing to spend to clean up the streets. I'm talking about basic welfare - food and shelter for those in need. this will clean up skid row. if you've ever lived in a big city, you're probably familiar with it. you don't even have to consider it welfare, you could think of it as a street-sweeping fee if it makes you feel better  . you'd pay for clean streets, wouldn't you?
and this isn't about tax=theft, that's an extreme view of it. most people don't consider taxation to be theft, and they're perfectly willing to pay for the basic services and infrastructure that government provides, and that includes your street sweeping fee. and btw, you don't get to choose where your tax dollars go .
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
#2242409 - 01/14/04 04:45 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Why should the feds pay for clean streets? Seems to me that comes under the heading of state and local taxes and expenditures. Same thing for welfare and other social programs.
As it stands, there is no mention of these things in the BOR or Constitution.
I'm well aware I can't decide where they go. Does that mean I shouldn't bitch about how much and where my tax dollars are spent? Or is bitching about that only OK if you do it?
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Granola
bag lady
Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 411
Loc: 50.0N-6.0E
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: JuanMatus]
#2243638 - 01/15/04 08:14 AM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
JuanMatus said:
now my point here is that we do not live in a vacuum, what we do as individuals affects those around us. subsidising education helps the poor child whos parents can't afford an education, but it also increases the likelyhood that he won't become a thug and kill you some night for your wallet. thus decreasing the need for pigs to patrol your streets and abuse you too.
we have had subsidized education for decades and we are have an ever increasing problem with crime and every other week police are screaming that they need more personel and bigger budgets. most of these peole in the penal system are quite literate and a number even recieve degrees while incarcerated and yet they return to the streets to commit more crimes.
Quote:
his wages when he graduates from school also helps to support the infrastructure that we all depend on. roads sewers water supplies would be rather expensive if we each had to build our own, also not very convenient. my point here is that no man is an island
it cost $3700 to run sewer pipe for a a house to the county sewer system, thats a local figure based on a 100' run. The county pays for the building of sewer system to private contractors with tax money and revenues. These taxes and expenditures are a local level, the federal government handles nothing except for dictation of how thing within the national borders are to opperate yet they collect 800% more from my check than the state does and because I have additional 'unearned income' I pay an additional 29% on that.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2243989 - 01/15/04 11:13 AM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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whether someone uses these services or not, they still have to pay for them.
So are you seriously the government asks everyones consent to look after the sewage system? At the moment you are being hypocritical every time you go to the john.
a person's tax burden has got nothing to do with which government services they actually use.
So what method do you suggest to pay for the sewage system? Charge everyone individually for how many visits they make? What if they go to a neighbours toilet?
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
#2244165 - 01/15/04 12:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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At the moment you are being hypocritical every time you go to the john.
there is nothing hypocritical about using services i am forced to pay for. see the steak knives example. would infidelGOD be hypocritcal for using the steak knives? would his use of the steak knives mitigate the crime i commited against him?
So what method do you suggest to pay for the sewage system?
like any other utility.
what's been suggested is that people only pay taxes for the government services they actually use. it's sort of a silly proposition i think, because in that case, they wouldn't be taxes, but voluntary payments for services, and the government would essentially be running a regular business. that how the post office works. it could work for the roads too perhaps, but most government services are either things that all people use and have no choice but to use (police, military, judicial system) or handouts that by their very nature, the user cannot and does not pay for, but are paid for by other people (welfare, medicare, etc.). it would work for very few programs, and even when the government can run a regular, non-coercive enterprise, they typically suck at it. everyone knows that priority mail is not the way to go if you actually want your package to arrive at its destination. in that case, you'd send it via one of the much more reliable private-sector companies like fedex or UPS.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
#2244253 - 01/15/04 01:27 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
So what method do you suggest to pay for the sewage system? Charge everyone individually for how many visits they make? What if they go to a neighbours toilet?
In most water districts sewer bills are based on how much water you use. So you are being charged by how often you use the toilet, among other things.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Anonymous
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2244379 - 01/15/04 02:06 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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alright people. how many arguments have we heard by this point? all of the theories so far have been pretty outlandish i think. we've heard that it's ok to take people's property in order to "pacify" would-be criminals. that it's ok to force enforce laws against certain voluntary transactions because paid, voluntary labor is tantamount to slavery. we've even heard an allusion made to similarities between the institution of free exchange and the concentration camps. we've seen the marxist version of capital theory raise it's ugly head. now some are trying to suggest that because a person actually may use a service that they've been forced to pay for, it makes it ok that they were forced in the first place. i have been thinking... from what foundation can all of this nonsense sprout?... and i think i figured it out.
if it is ok to forcefully take a person's property, one of the following must be true:
1. one person (or group) may have a higher claim on one man's life than he himself does.
(i would say that this can only be true if the man is perhaps a violent criminal.)
2. a person does not have a right to the things they produce as a product of their life; a man's property does not really represent a part of his life.
(i believe this statement to be false.)
if you look at what collectivism boils down to, i think you'll see that collectivists must believe #1 to be true. they must. i'd go so far as to say that this is the defining characteristic of collectivism. from there stems the opposition to individual rights to property, liberty, and even life, if in the percieved interest of the collective group or some subset of it. a man does not have the highest claim to his own life, but rather, other people do. i find that to be absurd.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2244410 - 01/15/04 02:16 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
i find that to be absurd
Nice post but with one flaw. The word absurd doesn't fit. Stupid is more like it. Perhaps delusional for the more PC crowd.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Anarkhos
Without a Ruler
Registered: 01/13/04
Posts: 47
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
#2244788 - 01/15/04 04:58 PM (8 years, 1 month ago) |
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No masters, no servants.
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TheOneYouKnow
addict
Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 470
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
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I think that the initial point that "luvdemshrooms" was trying to make was that, even tho they are among the "lower class", the majority of "poor people" in America live in conditions that the "lower class" people of the rest of the world would consider to be living like kings. With the assertion of the social-program sponsors being that these people "need" their federally funded programs to survive, "luvdemshrooms" stats certaintly throw a wrench into that line of thought. It seems patently obvious that the majority of people on welfare are not borderline starvation that would necessitate our compassion to feed them, nor are they borderline criminal, which would necessitate our sense of security to want to pay them to avoid stealing from us.
I do think it would be interesting to see how many children from families that are "poor" but have 2 vehicles, a TV/cable, DVD player, PS2, etcetera, are still "Going to bed.." undernourished. If people would spend their wages correctly, intead of on junk food, the minimum wage in America is definatly enough to buy the food and shelter that the welfare advocates say are a "right" of living in America.
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Opinions are like assholes; everyone needs one or else they'd explode
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Eloquently put.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Quote:
I think that the initial point that "luvdemshrooms" was trying to make was that, even tho they are among the "lower class", the majority of "poor people" in America live in conditions that the "lower class" people of the rest of the world would consider to be living like kings. With the assertion of the social-program sponsors being that these people "need" their federally funded programs to survive, "luvdemshrooms" stats certaintly throw a wrench into that line of thought. It seems patently obvious that the majority of people on welfare are not borderline starvation that would necessitate our compassion to feed them, nor are they borderline criminal, which would necessitate our sense of security to want to pay them to avoid stealing from us.
Maybe, but has it occurred to you that the reason why they aren't on the brink of starvation is BECAUSE they're on welfare? It might be a completely different story if they were all left to fend for themselves.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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And has it occured to you that perhaps many are on welfare because they have these things? ie: they have no self control and rather than saving money or spending it wisely, they buy things they want rather than the things they need?
A good example, I have a tenant in one of my buildings. They can't pay their rent and are being evicted yet somehow they have the money to rent a 50+ inch large screen TV and a surround sound system to go with it.
I have other tenants who never seem to lack money for booze, cigs and cable TV, yet they don't seem to have money for things they need.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Luvdem, perhaps you should take massive amounts of blood thinners... your heart's not bleeding enough.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 19,034
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Evolving]
#2248510 - 01/17/04 01:18 PM (8 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Evolving said:
Luvdem, perhaps you should take massive amounts of blood thinners... your heart's not bleeding enough.
You're right. I have seen the error of my ways. Free large screen TV's, with surround sound for all. And of course, free booze and cigs to enjoy while watching them.
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Source: The Tax Foundation, based on IRS data
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A thin-skinned Mod that deletes rates of himself that he doesn't like.
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