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 DebtSlave
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Registered: 07/06/15
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Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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 subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? 
#21904803 - 07/06/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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with my limited understanding in chemistry, I've been sitting on this idea of an extraction procedure involving an aqueous solution of subcritical co2 and I have reached a limit of what information I can expediently obtain to verify weather this will work before wasting money on equipment. The entire procedure is designed to be performed in the absence of oxygen where inside a pressure tested glass reaction chamber, distilled water along with the material being extracted, is pressurized with co2 to a minimum of 3.5 atm to achieve an aqueous solution of carbonic acid in concentrations that will hopefully extract a reasonable amount of indole compounds.
step1- degas the distilled water within the reaction chamber and replace with co2 until minimum oxygen is present
step2- within an inert atmosphere of either co2 or nitrogen, grind or pulverize the fresh material and degas using the same procedure in step1 to remove any oxygen present within the hydrated material.
step3- combine the material with the water inside the reaction chamber and pressurize with co2 to a minimum of 3.5 atm and place on a magnetic stirrer for 4+ hours
step4- filter and repeat
step5- compare density of extracted solution to measure mass of extracted compounds
I was thinking of adding ascorbic acid to the solution before pressurizing it as an antioxidant and maybe to lower the ph so that the extracted compounds will remain dissociated upon filtration. I have a slight concern for any enzymes that will be extracted along with the indole derivatives that might produce an unstable solution. I was hoping the solution could be concentrated further by lowering the temperature and collecting the lower half and then recycling the upper half. will the solution be sterile?
The objective of this procedure is to develop a simple and efficient process that produces an extract that can be readily used without involving toxic compounds
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knomadic_niki
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Registered: 06/30/14
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 Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: DebtSlave]
#21904918 - 07/06/15 11:03 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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 Mr.GuessWork
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Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: knomadic_niki]
#21905001 - 07/06/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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That seems like a lot of hassle to go through just to increase the pH of water a bit. You'd be better off a nontoxic acid that doesn't turn to a gas at normal pressures. I also think the glass vessel is a huge hassle that should be avoided. You'd be better off with stainless steel or some kind of plastic coated stainless steel.
It sounds like you trying to do is something like an acid-base workup. If you're not familiar with it here's a link::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-base_extraction
Are there some special concerns you're trying to address with this technique? It's kind of a cool idea in principle because it sort of works around the step of basifying the acidic extraction with a liquid base like in the acid-base workup. I think it's probably more trouble than it's worth though, and the acid-base workup will be waaay cheaper equipment-wise.
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DebtSlave
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Registered: 07/06/15
Posts: 4
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21905201 - 07/06/15 01:00 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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so technically could I just basify the solution before it is pressurized? If the indole derivatives were already separated and dissociated inside the solution why would I need to basify it? It seems I would have to displace the oxygen with something at least inert anyway to prevent oxidation.
If I use co2 and raise the pressure would the indole derivatives dissociate inside the solution of water? After the pressure is released would the compounds remain dissociated to then be separated by a filter? If so I can then replace the co2 with nitrogen and cool to just above freezing and collect the concentrate at the bottom. I guess I may try this method just to see how it works if it is theoretically possible.
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Mr.GuessWork
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Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: DebtSlave] 1
#21905270 - 07/06/15 01:27 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not really familiar with indoles, but as far as I understand, you're basically using the pressurized CO2 to create carbonic acid just to change the pH of the solution. I'm guessing you're using the carbonic acid to turn the indoles into an ionic form by sticking an extra hydrogen onto the nitrogen in the pyrrole ring so it's more soluble in water (Is there anything fancy that happens that I'm missing there with the acid?). The depressurization gets rid of most of the carbonic acid and neutralizes the solution (or returns it to it's previous pH) so the indoles precipitate out of the water. If the math works out for the solubilities and the pressures and such, then the idea should be fine in principle.
I was trying to suggest that you could avoid the costs ad hassle of that setup by sticking with liquid acids and bases in a sealed O2-free reaction vessel. I'm suspect that your method might be superior for an industrial process because CO2 is cheap and the cost of the apparatus would be okay, but if your doing this to get a small amount of product on a hobby scale, then their are cheaper and easier ways to do it. If you just want to build the thing for fun, or to see how it works, then it should work if you've double checked you calculations. There are probably ways to tweak it too.
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Toadstool5
A Registered Mycophile
Registered: 01/22/15
Posts: 1,359
Loc: The Golden State
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: DebtSlave]
#21907851 - 07/06/15 11:38 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not really familiar with indoles, but as far as I understand, you're basically using the pressurized CO2 to create carbonic acid just to change the pH of the solution
Yeah a super-critical CO2 extraction uses CO2 gas manipulated into a fluid state resembling liquid nitrogen. The solubility of different substances depends on the pressure the super-critical CO2 is under so indoles may or may not be soluble in super-critcal CO2 depending on atmospheric conditions of the reaction vessel.
Its been done with cannabis but like i said, you have to manipulate the level of pressure.
Another tip, CO2 has to be at least 45°F (7°C) or hotter to hit the phase.
A mod needs to move this to Chemistry and Pharmacology, you would get much more help there from all the chemistry blokes
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: Toadstool5]
#21914399 - 07/08/15 10:41 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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He's not trying to get it to a super critical state, he's just increasing the pressure to increase the solubility of CO2 so the pH goes up. The chem forum would definitely be better though.
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DebtSlave
Stranger
Registered: 07/06/15
Posts: 4
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21916507 - 07/08/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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where is the chem forum? will you post a link?
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Mr.GuessWork
Stranger
Registered: 03/30/13
Posts: 4,563
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: DebtSlave]
#21916598 - 07/08/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/92
It's called chemistry and pharmacology. They do lots of extraction stuff.
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DebtSlave
Stranger
Registered: 07/06/15
Posts: 4
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: subcritical aqueous co2 extraction of indole alkaloids? [Re: Mr.GuessWork]
#21916637 - 07/08/15 07:50 PM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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oh thats why. I have to be registered for 14 days and make 10 posts. thanks for your input.
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