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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s
    #21870378 - 06/28/15 08:17 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Hey shroomerites, I am going to make the step to monotubs, and in doing that I am using Franks 12 step.  I have a couple of questions:

-It is ok to lad jars on their sides when PC'ing?  I have a 24qt pressure cooker and want to fit as many jars as I can, that's going to be like 6 on the bottom with another rack on top of those with 3 jars on their sides.

-Which type of lid is best to use in a SAB, a SHIP(with polyfill) or just a lid with polyfill stuffed in a hole, the type mentioned in franks 12 step:"Step Two: Make your lids
Using a 3/4" or 1" drill bit or hole saw, carefully drill a hole in the lid of each quart jar.

Stuff the lid with polyfill VERY TIGHTLY. You should stuff it as tight as possible, no exceptions.

To test for good polyfill density, stick your needle through it. You should feel some resistance as you press it through. More resistance is better in all cases:"

-What have you found is the best amount of time to PC your grains(rye berries?)

-I have seen teks showing non-boil methods of preparing grains, if these are acceptable, are they better or worse than the normal method of preparing grains(how does it affect contams/losses or improve yields)


that's all I have for now, thanks.


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Edited by firstTIMER420 (06/28/15 08:19 PM)

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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21872533 - 06/29/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

anyone have any input? Im going to be starting the grow in about a week, and id like to have as much info as possible before starting.


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InvisibleMuncher
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21872682 - 06/29/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I can tackle a couple of these:

SHIPs are nice if you want to do open air inoculations, but if you're working in a SAB, you can just pop off the lid and give it a squirt.  You'll only need the one hole for gas exchange.

90 mins is standard for grains.  I've upped to 2 full hours recently, because I'm trying not to take any chances with my spawn.

I haven't worked with rye, but the only time I fucked up wbs was when I tried to boil it.

Best.

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Offlineshroomyaxn
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21872732 - 06/29/15 10:20 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
-Which type of lid is best to use in a SAB, a SHIP(with polyfill) or just a lid with polyfill stuffed in a hole, the type mentioned in franks 12 step:"Step Two: Make your lids
Using a 3/4" or 1" drill bit or hole saw, carefully drill a hole in the lid of each quart jar.

Stuff the lid with polyfill VERY TIGHTLY. You should stuff it as tight as possible, no exceptions.

To test for good polyfill density, stick your needle through it. You should feel some resistance as you press it through. More resistance is better in all cases:"



I personally would not waste time with poly fill lids. I have been using synthetic filter disk lids for a couple years now.  I ordered a half dozen 90mm SFD's then cut out 4 small circles from each one.  I then glue the circles down over my gas exchange holes using RTV Silicone. 



Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
-What have you found is the best amount of time to PC your grains(rye berries?)



90mins once the pressure has reached 14-15psi

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
-I have seen teks showing non-boil methods of preparing grains, if these are acceptable, are they better or worse than the normal method of preparing grains(how does it affect contams/losses or improve yields)




The reason I boil my rye berries after a 12-20hr soak is because the grains can easily be steam dried after a 5-10min boil. 
Once I dump the rye berries into the colander I vigorously shake them until the steam no longer comes off the grains.  I then toss them around with a spoon for another 15-20 mins until they are cooled.

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: Muncher]
    #21872755 - 06/29/15 10:25 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Muncher said:
SHIPs are nice if you want to do open air inoculations, but if you're working in a SAB, you can just pop off the lid and give it a squirt.  You'll only need the one hole for gas exchange.





Exactly.  In a SAB you want to make minimal, smooth movements. This is why one lid, preferably the plastic ones are great when working in a SAB. 

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OfflineGreen Bastard
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: shroomyaxn]
    #21873216 - 06/29/15 11:42 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Not sure about PCing jars on their side. Probably ok on the top layer, but not on the bottom, of course.
Jar lid holes should be much smaller. Many use as small as 1/8". I use 1/4", but allow some RTV silicone to close the gap, when I attach my filter discs... Otherwise your grain will dry too much, during colonization, as it should start out dryer than many first expect it would need to be.

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: Green Bastard]
    #21873453 - 06/29/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

yes you can PC jars on their sides,
SHIPs arent all that IMO, they're also not a replacement for poly. think poly vs SFD and SHIP vs no SHIP.
dont do 1" holes in your lids, do 1/4". dont know why franks 12 steps says 1" :shrug:
Polyfill works well as a filter.
and dont do anything open air even if you choose a SHIP. build a SAB :super:
when prepping grains there's different teks for different grains.

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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: spacechildo]
    #21876999 - 06/30/15 08:28 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

thanks for the input guys, I have an SAB hence my question.

I cannot seem to find a good source for filter disks, and since my jars are wide mouth quart jars should I buy wide mouth disks(which I think are 90mm, could be wrong)

That is the RTV I bought, since I thought I was going to be making SHIP's

basically, when using the SFD, you just cut a 1/4" hole in the middle of the lid, and glue the SFD piece UNDER or ONTOP of the lid?  and to innoc you just unscrew inside the SAB and put a few drops in there.


What do you find is the best amount of INNOC to use, when using a MS solution?(like, 1/4  of mL, or 1/2mL or whatever)



also, rye berries are only available online to me, and im thiking about getting rye grass since multiple stores near me have it, its also slightly cheaper, will that be an acceptable replacement and will the preparation be much different?


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OfflinePsilosoulful

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21877143 - 06/30/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Yea cut a GE hole in the center of the lid, 1/4" should be fine, but I've heard people use 3/8" holes with success as well.

The placement of the SFD doesn't make much of a difference IMO, but most jars I've seen people post have them on top.

Use between 1-2cc max, anymore and you will only be adding excess moisture to the grains. And after you inject the MS solution, do not shake the jar, it'll only increase colonization times.

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21877657 - 06/30/15 11:31 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
...and to innoc you just unscrew inside the SAB and put a few drops in there.




Drill another hole, separate from your GE hole, 1/4" wide in your lid.  This will be your inoculation hole. Cover BOTH sides of this hole with RTV silicone, so RTV is filling in all areas, leaving no air gaps. 
Your hot syringe needle will slide through the RTV during the inoculation process. 


Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
rye berries are only available online to me, and im thiking about getting rye grass since multiple stores near me have it, its also slightly cheaper, will that be an acceptable replacement and will the preparation be much different?



From what i have read on here, most people use berries over rye grass seed. 

If you have Amazon Prime, this vendor isn't too bad of a deal:
Search: Great River Organic Milling, Organic Whole Grains Rye, 25-Pound Package

There is also this company, Azure Standard:
https://www.azurestandard.com/ Search for rye berries.
They sell rye berries for under $1 a lb, but they wont ship directly to you, they have these drop points. 
If you live close to one of their drop-points, i would give it a try.  I don't, so i have never used them.

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21878001 - 06/30/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
That is the RTV I bought, since I thought I was going to be making SHIP's

basically, when using the SFD, you just cut a 1/4" hole in the middle of the lid, and glue the SFD piece UNDER or ONTOP of the lid?  and to innoc you just unscrew inside the SAB and put a few drops in there.


What do you find is the best amount of INNOC to use, when using a MS solution?(like, 1/4  of mL, or 1/2mL or whatever)



also, rye berries are only available online to me, and im thiking about getting rye grass since multiple stores near me have it, its also slightly cheaper, will that be an acceptable replacement and will the preparation be much different?




just skip SHIPs all toghether. crack the lid of your jar open in the sab and inoc right into it.
a couple drops is all you need and want.
put the SFD on top of the lid so it stays dry. most sponsors have SFDs for about 1$ pr disc.
rye grass seed is a good grain, just use whatever is cheapest for you, wbs, oats, wheat, rgs, millet etc..

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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: spacechildo]
    #21882203 - 07/01/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I ordered 12 SFD 90mm size for the wide mouth jars. From what im gathering from everyone, I just cut out a circular piece and put it over the GE hole.  Should work fine.  and I used 5/62(maybe 5/68") holes for my PF tek jars the needle barely fit thru the holes but they worked fine, I figured the smaller the better to keep out contams.  to me, 1/4 seems a little bit, but then again, these are 1L jars so they will need more GE than that, so I guess ill go with 1/4" holes.

like the other guy said, would you guys go with making 2 holes(1 for RTV innoc and the other for GE?) its basically a SHIP, actually, it IS a SHIP.


and im just curious, why wouldn't Micropore tape work like it did for the PF tek jars?


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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21882479 - 07/01/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Use a quarter to draw your circles on your sfd. Pack as many as you can into the space. I think I got 18 from a 120mm SFD. Use rtv silicone to adhere to the top if the lid.

Crack the lid and inoculate while in your SAB. I highly recommend you go spore to agar to grain for best results.

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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: Chilldog]
    #21885239 - 07/01/15 09:49 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

fuck I want to start agar but I priced it out to get all the materials and since I have to order them online it wasn't really cheap, that's the only downfall, but I think I might have to just do it, I really don't want all the expensive rye berries to get contam'd also wasting the syringe I have too.


Does grain contam easily from spore syringes?

also, what do you use to cut your agar pieces from the petri?

and I was wondering what people use to scrape their spores from the prints so they can make their syringes


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Edited by firstTIMER420 (07/01/15 09:50 PM)

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OfflinePsilosoulful

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21885378 - 07/01/15 10:15 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
fuck I want to start agar but I priced it out to get all the materials and since I have to order them online it wasn't really cheap, that's the only downfall, but I think I might have to just do it, I really don't want all the expensive rye berries to get contam'd also wasting the syringe I have too.


Does grain contam easily from spore syringes?

also, what do you use to cut your agar pieces from the petri?

and I was wondering what people use to scrape their spores from the prints so they can make their syringes



I was gonna start agar soon too, but I couldn't because of the same reason lol. Literally flat broke right now :frown:

But i found an agar substitute tek that uses a thin layer of brf/water. Didn't have to spend a penny. The spores I used are already colonizing the surface and it looks healthy. :awesome:

Spore syringes are never 100% sterile, so there is always a small chance of contamination showing up.

Use a scalpel to cut pieces from the agar and to scrape spores from the print.

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OfflinefirstTIMER420
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #21886854 - 07/02/15 08:45 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

cool, thanks for the info.  WHat size scalpel blade did you use?

im going to look more into agar substitutes, could you maybe link the tek? but let me know how that works out the farther down you get.

while using the SFD lids, do you think I could cut another small hole on the opposite side of the lid and stuff it with polyfill or may be put some micropore tape over it and use that for innoc?  Im thinking it could work as it does in PF jars but maybe it works in the PF jars because of the dry verm layer.  thoughts?


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21886872 - 07/02/15 08:49 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

take off the lid in your SAB for inoculation. if you push a needle through mp tape you have an open hole in your grain jar!

SHIPs are a waste too IMO, best just to open the lid so you'll learn for when you start doing agar!

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: spacechildo]
    #21887041 - 07/02/15 09:25 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

ok, good to know, im going to read your #1 in your sig and see how it compares to some other but from a quick glace it looks pretty good.  The only part im worried about is prepping the berries.  any suggestions for this?


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OfflinePsilosoulful

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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21887159 - 07/02/15 09:46 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
cool, thanks for the info.  WHat size scalpel blade did you use?

im going to look more into agar substitutes, could you maybe link the tek? but let me know how that works out the farther down you get.

while using the SFD lids, do you think I could cut another small hole on the opposite side of the lid and stuff it with polyfill or may be put some micropore tape over it and use that for innoc?  Im thinking it could work as it does in PF jars but maybe it works in the PF jars because of the dry verm layer.  thoughts?



The size of the blade doesn't matter IMO, just make sure it's really sharp. I saw a pack of 10 pre-sterilized scalpels on amazon for like 12$.

Here's the tek: http://www.shroomery.org/8514/Agar-substitute

Spacechildo is right, it's best to work on your sterile techniques in a SAB if you plan to use agar in the future.

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Grain lids:Polyfill vs SHIP/Monotub ?'s [Re: firstTIMER420]
    #21887290 - 07/02/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

firstTIMER420 said:
ok, good to know, im going to read your #1 in your sig and see how it compares to some other but from a quick glace it looks pretty good.  The only part im worried about is prepping the berries.  any suggestions for this?




depends on what grain you choose.

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