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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21863963 - 06/27/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

they don't need to be implicit.  Wide sections are written to allow agencies to be set up that will make decisions, rules, and regulations.  And limiting the care given is one of them. 




Can you provide a source for this? Here's what I found, and I think it clearly refutes everything you just said.

Quote:

The health reform bill being considered in the House of Representatives says that a Comparative Effectiveness Research Center shall "conduct, support, and synthesize research" that looks at "outcomes, effectiveness, and appropriateness of health care services and procedures in order to identify the manner in which diseases, disorders, and other health conditions can most effectively and appropriately be prevented, diagnosed, treated, and managed clinically."

The idea here, which Obama and his budget director Peter Orszag have discussed many times, is to make it easier for doctors, health care workers, insurance companies and patients to find out which treatments are the most effective, as determined by clinical studies and other research.

Obama has said he believes a comparative effectiveness commission should advise health care workers, not require them to follow certain treatments.




Quote:

And in fact, the House bill states in the section creating the Comparative Effectiveness Research Center and an oversight commission, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the Commission or the Center to mandate coverage, reimbursement, or other policies for any public or private payer." In other words, comparative effectiveness research will tell you whether treatment A is better than treatment B. But the bill as written won't mandate which treatment doctors and patients have to select.




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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21864584 - 06/27/15 02:35 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

How on earth could anyone in their right mind think the govt, our fucked up govt, could run something better than the free market? Before the libtards start in with their whining, I can see some reform of health care. They could have made a few well crafted regulations and fixed a few things and let it be. But no, they had to put the govt in charge and a million new rules and regulations.

So health care costs go up instead of down, we are told no one can be denied but it turns out they can be denied under certain circumstances. When the world wide financial crises hits, there will be no funds and the whole thing will fall into ruin if it hasn't fallen down under its own weight already.

Lets see, what has the fed govt run really well

ss? nope, insolvent already
post office? loses billions every year
military? most inefficient area ever. $5000 toilet seats and $700 hammers, etc.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflinetripN
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Registered: 06/27/15
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21866751 - 06/27/15 11:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The first sentence from Stonehenge  summed it all up.

If you don't like doing business with somebody go to there competitor, my local walmart is full of idiots so I go to a small businesses.

Don't like any of them then there is demand for a business to do better and someone will start it.

Also when gov't has controll over marriage, health etc. They control your life's.

Such as the drug war!


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


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Keep calm and trip on

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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: qman]
    #21869726 - 06/28/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Conservatives are actually very happy with Obamacare, they got rich owning health care related stocks that benefited from the new polices.



Ya, they just can't admit that most of it was their rebuttal to Hillary Care of the 90's.

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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21869751 - 06/28/15 05:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
How on earth could anyone in their right mind think the govt, our fucked up govt, could run something better than the free market?




Ask someone to give their VA benefits (once they get them of course), or the Medicare, then tell them they're going to have to give their money to blood sucking leaches CEOs like Rick Scott.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: sweeper54]
    #21870043 - 06/28/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sweeper54 said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
How on earth could anyone in their right mind think the govt, our fucked up govt, could run something better than the free market?




Ask someone to give their VA benefits (once they get them of course), or the Medicare, then tell them they're going to have to give their money to blood sucking leaches CEOs like Rick Scott.




Sorry, but that makes not a bit of sense. Could you translate it please into ordinary English?


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21870706 - 06/28/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

No, it works.

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OfflinetripN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21870785 - 06/28/15 09:54 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

He says that a free market is bad because private people can make money.

That is actually a good thing because it gives people a reward for inventing new medical drugs. Find a cure for cancer you'll be a billionaire. With that in mind people will spend there lives looking for new drugs or a cure. Look at HIV AIDs in the USA it was a very scary and lethal plague in the USA and a treatment was found, that person or group deserve a massive reward because they save very many lives, uncountable.

As for Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, and EPA etc. If those went away are you telling me thousands millions will die I believe our society will hold each other up. Charity's and similar groups will take over, drop taxes or offer great tax credits for charity donations.

As for welfare charity and helping people a wise man once told me " you can't help the helpless, in the end It comes to them to help themselves."

Those that would rather live on the dole than work, will sit on there ass until they have to get up.

That does not apply to individuals with real physical or mental problems.

I would rather help a stranger get a job and find a place to live rather than send a couple thousand $ off to the state or Feds. One makes me feel good the makes me want to go postal

Last part was a joke.


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Keep calm and trip on

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: tripN] * 1
    #21871733 - 06/29/15 01:50 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That is actually a good thing because it gives people a reward for inventing new medical drugs. Find a cure for cancer you'll be a billionaire. With that in mind people will spend there lives looking for new drugs or a cure. Look at HIV AIDs in the USA it was a very scary and lethal plague in the USA and a treatment was found, that person or group deserve a massive reward because they save very many lives, uncountable.





This is actually a perfect example to illustrate why a free market approach is not ideal for health care. The measure of success, and the "reward" given, should be the quality of care. The overarching goal should not be to earn money.

Here is one reason why. In this country, we have a huge dichotomy in researching pharmaceuticals. Comparitavely little is spent researching new antibiotics, which are desperately needed. Alternatively, quite a lot of money is spent researching new drugs for mental disorders. Now, if everyone in the scientific and medical communities agree that we are in desperate need of a new antibiotic to treat drug resistant strains, why is it not being prioritized? My theory is that it's simply not very profitable.

If I'm a pharmaceutical company, why would I spend hundreds of millions of dollars developing a new drug from scratch that will be taken for two weeks and then never again? I could just as easily spend a few million dollars reinventing the wheel on a drug to treat depression that will be taken for years. The ROI here is obvious, but society does not need more depression drugs, we need more antibiotics.

And I'm not saying nobody is working on it, but I'm saying that it's not the most profitable option.

Also, when money is the primary goal, as it always is in a free market, then the care of the patient is secondary. That's just how the free market works. Now, I'm generally a fan of the free market, but we can clearly see that it doesn't work for health care. The US spends by far the most money per capita on healthcare than any other country. Yet, we rank abismally on measures of health care like average life span. Clearly, we could be doing a lot, lot better, and I think the key is to abandon the market-based approach and focus on patient care like almost the entire rest of the world does.

And that's not the ACA, but I know many think that law is socialist, and they definitely won't like what I want.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21872082 - 06/29/15 06:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
How on earth could anyone in their right mind think the govt, our fucked up govt, could run something better than the free market?



The goal of any insurance company is to make as much profit as possible.  The Government doesn't have a profit motive.

Unfortunately, insurance is still being run by free market insurance companies, which is why Obamacare sucks.

Fortunately, there are a few improvements over what we had before.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: tripN]
    #21872089 - 06/29/15 06:13 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tripN said:
He says that a free market is bad because private people can make money.

That is actually a good thing because it gives people a reward for inventing new medical drugs. Find a cure for cancer you'll be a billionaire. With that in mind people will spend there lives looking for new drugs or a cure. Look at HIV AIDs in the USA it was a very scary and lethal plague in the USA and a treatment was found, that person or group deserve a massive reward because they save very many lives, uncountable.



That incentive will not go away under Obamacare.  The problem is that they kept the insurance companies, who add no value whatsoever, but cost a lot.

Quote:

tripN said:
As for Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, and EPA etc. If those went away are you telling me thousands millions will die I believe our society will hold each other up. Charity's and similar groups will take over, drop taxes or offer great tax credits for charity donations.



We've tried that already, and it didn't work out too well for most people.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21872598 - 06/29/15 09:50 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

tripN said:
He says that a free market is bad because private people can make money.

That is actually a good thing because it gives people a reward for inventing new medical drugs. Find a cure for cancer you'll be a billionaire. With that in mind people will spend there lives looking for new drugs or a cure. Look at HIV AIDs in the USA it was a very scary and lethal plague in the USA and a treatment was found, that person or group deserve a massive reward because they save very many lives, uncountable.



That incentive will not go away under Obamacare.  The problem is that they kept the insurance companies, who add no value whatsoever, but cost a lot.

Quote:

tripN said:
As for Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, and EPA etc. If those went away are you telling me thousands millions will die I believe our society will hold each other up. Charity's and similar groups will take over, drop taxes or offer great tax credits for charity donations.



We've tried that already, and it didn't work out too well for most people.




I'm going to say that's exactly what would happen, because it already has! That's why they were created.. Please think about that for a minute


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OfflinetripN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Citizen X]
    #21873855 - 06/29/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

First of a all I want to say a conversation like this is rare for me, those who disagree with me usually flip out and start calling me things I'm not racist conservative or anti lower class. I'm happy we haven't gone there.

To clarify I'm not right, left, rePUBEican, or democrat. My positions come from first hand life experience. We all have different positions that does not mean one is right all the others are wrong.

My main gripe about all of the topics we are talking about is that they are being done on a national level. I believe the best part of the USA is that we have 50 states to test new ideas IE California with medical weed and gun control, Florida with low low taxes, Texas with super right wing laws.

Forcing an experiment on all 50 states does not give control results, if health is better in states with obamacare and high welfare or vise versa, then the other states should take notice and follow the right path for its people.

We will see the results of these laws in the future, meanwhile don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining, we don't know yet


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: tripN]
    #21874513 - 06/29/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tripN said:
First of a all I want to say a conversation like this is rare for me, those who disagree with me usually flip out and start calling me things I'm not racist conservative or anti lower class. I'm happy we haven't gone there.




Give it a few posts. It'll, sadly, go there.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflinetripN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21874665 - 06/29/15 05:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers



That is true very true. If taxes are over 50% why should I work when I could just live on the dole?


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Keep calm and trip on

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OfflineWAN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: tripN]
    #21874720 - 06/29/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

tripN said:
He says that a free market is bad because private people can make money.

That is actually a good thing because it gives people a reward for inventing new medical drugs. Find a cure for cancer you'll be a billionaire. With that in mind people will spend there lives looking for new drugs or a cure. Look at HIV AIDs in the USA it was a very scary and lethal plague in the USA and a treatment was found, that person or group deserve a massive reward because they save very many lives, uncountable.




Have you heard of "orphan diseases"?  Basically they are diseases that only strike a very small number of people.  Dumping money into research for these has very low returns for the big pharma companies, so nobody tries to come up with anything, and people suffer and/or die.  Free market works, right?

Edited by WAN (06/29/15 06:04 PM)

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OfflinetripN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: WAN]
    #21875269 - 06/29/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I read about orphans disease it is very rare in our country, probably because the healthcare for pregnant women.

Tell me this what would you choose a cure or treatment for cancer or smallpox?

I'd go with the cancer cure.

I won't lie that does sound mean but it is true.

To me your argument is, if they can't be perfect why let them keep working. (That is my interpretation, if wrong correct me please)

The liberals seem like me when I was younger, "that's not right, fix it" but over the years I've learned that some things are "sad but true" you didn't ask for it but you got it, life's not perfect it never will be perfect. However we can work on making it better, find cures help each other.

My way to go about this is low government, if not governing ourselves. low taxes or no taxes if you contribute to helping your fellow man (soldiers, police, firefighters, charity workers and donors)

As for those that don't give a shit about there fellow man they can burn in hell and they should be taxed, that money would then go to the previously mentioned causes.

In the end I want the government to leave me alone as much as possible, let the gays marry, let the stoners smoke, and yes let the gun nuts keep there guns. If anybody abuse there rights or hurt others then those rights will be taken away.

And the real demons in our society should be convicted and swiftly executed or deported. The last two are the jury's choice


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: tripN]
    #21875279 - 06/29/15 07:38 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

A very good post, tripN. Its rare to see such good sense in the shroomery.

Orphan drugs should perhaps be subsidized. We don't want kids with no parents to die a horrible death.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineWAN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21875290 - 06/29/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Definition of orphan disease:  https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=a_ORVebwDsOE8QeV7YC4Bg#q=orphan+disease+definition

Don't take it literally.  It does NOT mean diseases that only orphans can get.

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OfflinetripN
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Re: Obamacare, gay marriage rulings - sad times for conservatards [Re: WAN]
    #21875359 - 06/29/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I noticed Lou Gehrig's disease and Tourette's is on the list I looked at. Are telling me Lou Gehrig's is not being researched?

I had a disease epilepsy and about a year ago a doctor cut my head open and took out the part causing the seizures. I had an IQ test before and after, it went up that is amazing. Today I drive a car, work a 10-6 job, and do anything I want to do with no concern about seizures.

That was well worth the bill

The man that helped invent the surgery did the work on me, in my mind he deserved every penny for giving me a normal life.

And one day, be it sooner or later a cure for many terrible diseases will be found. But for right now it's just us and we need to help each other not help the government help who they want to help.


--------------------
Keep calm and trip on

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