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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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What is Political Spending?
    #21615928 - 04/30/15 12:14 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

In other threads, we discussed the need to limit the power and influence that big money has on our Government.  Here is one possible solution, which Bigbadwooof and Stonehenge assisted with (with the help of Enlil, BoldAsLove, and psyconaught, by asking tough questions):

Quote:

Quote:

A publication, broadcast program, or performance is free to include whatever political content it desires, provided it does not accept third party payments to insert, dictate, or modify political content beyond an individual contribution limit.

Advertising costs paid by the first party to put political content into public view (not including production costs or the cost to display publications for sale), assessed at fair market value (to prevent circumventing this rule) are subject to individual spending limits.




Political content is that which provide opinions, facts, or fabrications about people running for office, people in Government, and/or Government policy.

A 3rd party is anyone not acting on behalf of the publication, production, or performance.  A 3rd party can pay a political publication/program to insert or dictate non-political content.

Advertising is any form of communication used to attempt to persuade an audience to take or continue some position.

To enforce the above, penalties would be placed on both the entity spending the money, and the entity receiving the money.





If anyone can find any holes, I’ll edit the above to close them.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/25/17 11:44 AM)

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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21616008 - 04/30/15 12:40 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

there should not be any ads to begin with imho.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21617505 - 04/30/15 01:05 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

You're quite the totalitarian.

Fortunately, you have no power to shit on people politically.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21617667 - 04/30/15 01:55 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Fortunately, you have no power to shit on people politically.



Unfortunately, they have the power to shit on you.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21617892 - 04/30/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Does the viewer simply have to intend to a view a general program. Or do they have to be exactly aware of what political views will be present in the program ahead of time?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21618417 - 04/30/15 05:30 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

The former is sufficient, but either exempts it from being an ad.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/30/15 07:38 PM)

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21618600 - 04/30/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know anyone who doesnt expect ads to be part of ingesting media. In fact the absence of ads is the exception instead of the rule.


--------------------
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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21618615 - 04/30/15 06:12 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Falcon, how do you define who is intending to watch an advertisement or not? For example, Super Bowl ads are very popular and a lot of my friends watch the Super Bowl solely or partly because of the advertisements.

More broadly, if I choose to watch a TV program that is also available online, am I not choosing to watch the advertisements on the TV as well as the show?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21618923 - 04/30/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
I don't know anyone who doesnt expect ads to be part of ingesting media. In fact the absence of ads is the exception instead of the rule.



To clarify the original statement and to better match the first part with the second part, I changed it as follows:

Quote:

If a political statement is put in front of people, a majority of whom aren’t actively seeking it, then  the statement is an ad and is subject to individual contribution limits.  If a political statement is put in front of people, a majority of whom intend to seeare seeking such content, then it is not an ad, unless a 3rd party pays to dictate the content.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21618930 - 04/30/15 07:17 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Falcon, how do you define who is intending to watch an advertisement or not? For example, Super Bowl ads are very popular and a lot of my friends watch the Super Bowl solely or partly because of the advertisements.

More broadly, if I choose to watch a TV program that is also available online, am I not choosing to watch the advertisements on the TV as well as the show?



The key statement from the original post is "a majority of whom".  That makes the answer easy.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21619284 - 04/30/15 08:36 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Falcon, how do you define who is intending to watch an advertisement or not? For example, Super Bowl ads are very popular and a lot of my friends watch the Super Bowl solely or partly because of the advertisements.

More broadly, if I choose to watch a TV program that is also available online, am I not choosing to watch the advertisements on the TV as well as the show?



The key statement from the original post is "a majority of whom".  That makes the answer easy.




Perhaps the answer is clear in current society, but societies change, often rapidly. That's why I think it is important that you are able to clearly define a person's intentions, because that is what your definition hinges on. I'm curious as to how you know a person's intentions or not.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21619538 - 04/30/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I'm curious as to how you know a person's intentions or not.



For your particular example, we know that 1/4 Watch Super Bowl For Ads  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/30/15 10:16 PM)

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21620149 - 05/01/15 12:27 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Right, but it still doesn't answer my question. I must not be very clear with what I'm asking. I'm saying how do you judge a person's intentions with out a survey? Just because it's obvious now does not mean that it will be so obvious forever, therefore it would be a good idea to define it in clear and concise terms.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21620229 - 05/01/15 12:50 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Right, but it still doesn't answer my question. I must not be very clear with what I'm asking. I'm saying how do you judge a person's intentions with out a survey? Just because it's obvious now does not mean that it will be so obvious forever, therefore it would be a good idea to define it in clear and concise terms.



I don't think I do understand the question.  "A majority of whom" means 50%+.  Is that not clearly defined?

If someday 50% or more of the people that watch the Super Bowl watch it strictly for the commercials, then by the above standard (which isn't the only possible solution) you can then begin running political ads during the Super Bowl, because that's what people are seeking.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21620488 - 05/01/15 03:42 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

The majority of whom isn't that part that is confusing me. My point is what defines a person's intentions and what they are seeking to watch. If two things are being broadcast at an identical time (shows + commercials), how do you decide who is watching what? Or if two forms of media have to be intertwined, such as trailers before movies, how do you tell if they are there to watch the movie or the trailers? I agree that it is a preposterous question now, but I'm not convinced that it will always be that way.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21620558 - 05/01/15 04:32 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

It will never fly, simply for the reason that the government has a substantial interest in it.

That is, if for example, candidate A advocates removing government restriction on (Theoretical) Policy X, than to restrict commercial speech (advertisement) that states this position is a violation because the government has a substantial interest in governmental policy.

Just the fact that the government has a substantial interest in elections means they couldn't restrict advertisement for campaigns. 

It is easy to see why.  The government is restricting in this case free speech on something it has a large interest in. 

That's the kind of thing Totalitarian Governments do.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21620998 - 05/01/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Right, but it still doesn't answer my question. I must not be very clear with what I'm asking. I'm saying how do you judge a person's intentions with out a survey? Just because it's obvious now does not mean that it will be so obvious forever, therefore it would be a good idea to define it in clear and concise terms.



I don't think I do understand the question.  "A majority of whom" means 50%+.  Is that not clearly defined?

If someday 50% or more of the people that watch the Super Bowl watch it strictly for the commercials, then by the above standard (which isn't the only possible solution) you can then begin running political ads during the Super Bowl, because that's what people are seeking.



so every time someone wants to run an ad a survey must be done on the consumers of that specific media to determine what their intention is?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #21621182 - 05/01/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It will never fly, simply for the reason that the government has a substantial interest in it.

It is easy to see why.  The government is restricting in this case free speech on something it has a large interest in. 

That's the kind of thing Totalitarian Governments do.



Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton both said they are ready to Amend the Constitution to limit big money in politics.  Have any Republicans taken that position yet?  :shrug:

Perhaps we know who the totalitarians are.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21621187 - 05/01/15 09:15 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
The majority of whom isn't that part that is confusing me. My point is what defines a person's intentions and what they are seeking to watch. If two things are being broadcast at an identical time (shows + commercials), how do you decide who is watching what? Or if two forms of media have to be intertwined, such as trailers before movies, how do you tell if they are there to watch the movie or the trailers? I agree that it is a preposterous question now, but I'm not convinced that it will always be that way.



I understand your question, but the survey I linked to asked that very question.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: What is a Political Ad? [Re: psyconaught]
    #21621200 - 05/01/15 09:18 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
so every time someone wants to run an ad a survey must be done on the consumers of that specific media to determine what their intention is?



Keep in mind that today the number is only 24.9%, a far cry from a majority - and that's people that want to see adds in general.  If you ask the question of whether they want to see political adds during the Super Bowl, the number would go WAY down.  I don't see it ever getting close to 50%, even if attitudes change.  People go to political sites if they want to hear about politics.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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