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OfflineOrganic_Magic
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532460 - 04/11/15 10:50 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I've not contradicted myself at all. Never once did I say hpoo is better than coir. Only that it is a more diverse substrate in terms of ingredients. That is why I prefer it even though I use coir and get similar if not identical results I still appreciate the different nutrition available from manure. Never did I say you can't do an experiment with multispore, shit I still use multispore a lot to lol. Just that IMO you get more consistent results using multiple isoltes in the same tests. I didn't realize so many people would get all butthurt about me suggesting hpoo over coir. Leaders do lead that's why I use hpoo when I can even though everyone seems to be switching to coir do to ease of prep. I just like hpoo. :shrug:


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Invisibleazur
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo]
    #21532482 - 04/11/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Try loose coir and you'll realize the bricks are a pita.
Stonesun's latest grow included hpoo.
My best first flush from hpoo was 13 ounces. I've had several that were 10. Most are 8.
My best on coir was 8. Most are 4-6.
My opinion on this hpoo vs coir bullshit are my results of growing for several years. That has to mean something.
You do bring up a good point on moisture content though. It seems hpoo is capable of holding a little more moisture than coir


Quote:

Organic_Magic said:
I've not contradicted myself at all. Never once did I say hpoo is better than coir. Only that it is a more diverse substrate in terms of ingredients. That is why I prefer it even though I use coir and get similar if not identical results I still appreciate the different nutrition available from manure. Never did I say you can't do an experiment with multispore, shit I still use multispore a lot to lol. Just that IMO you get more consistent results using multiple isoltes in the same tests. I didn't realize so many people would get all butthurt about me suggesting hpoo over coir. Leaders do lead that's why I use hpoo when I can even though everyone seems to be switching to coir do to ease of prep. I just like hpoo. :shrug:



I'm the most hated hpoo lover here. No butthurt on my end


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532492 - 04/11/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

either way, getting 4-6 oz avg on 8qts of grain sounds really weird to me,
especially as you say you've been doing it for yrs so the only thing I can think
of is you're doing something wrong when prepping coir :shrug:

I've yet to see anyone else, myself included, have such a difference in results based on their substrate choice!

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Invisibleazur
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo]
    #21532508 - 04/11/15 11:04 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Well if you'd quit being a beautiful man, and did the math, you'd see i don't use 8 quarts of spawn.
Most people's quart jars on here are almost full. My half gallon jars are 2/3 full.
Do the math, or look back in my journal and see when we all did the math, and it will all make sense.


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Edited by azur (04/11/15 11:10 AM)

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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532520 - 04/11/15 11:07 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

hateful ass? dude wtf?
Most peoples grain jars arent almost full. 2/3's is normal.

8 jars x 1 qt x 2/3 full is just as much as
4 jars x 2 qt (half gallon) x 2/3.

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OfflineOrganic_Magic
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo]
    #21532530 - 04/11/15 11:09 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I dont hate you or your love for poo azur we are all friends here. lol :hug:

I guess the great shit vs coir debate will rage on for centuries. :biggrin:


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Invisibleazur
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: Organic_Magic]
    #21532539 - 04/11/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
hateful ass? dude wtf?
Most peoples grain jars arent almost full. 2/3's is normal.

8 jars x 1 qt x 2/3 full is just as much as
4 jars x 2 qt (half gallon) x 2/3.



How many hydrated cups of grain do you put in your coir jars?
I put about 4 in my half gallon jars.


Quote:

Organic_Magic said:
I dont hate you or your love for poo azur we are all friends here. lol :hug:

I guess the great shit vs coir debate will rage on for centuries. :biggrin:



Indeed


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InvisibleMudaFuka
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo] * 1
    #21532560 - 04/11/15 11:12 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

cubes are over 90% water. So the substrate makes up less than 10% of the mushroom. about 1/3 of the substrate is made of grain so cubes are made of less than 6% coir or hpoo. it really comes down to how much water you can pack into your sub. Hpoo may hold more or maybe people who claim lesser results from coir aren't hydrating it as much as they could. I have noticed that hpoo retains water better so maybe some people are letting there coir dry out slightly. My first flush MS average with coir is 5-6 ounces. My best MS on coir yields are about 10 ounces in the first flush. With a good clone I can consistently pull 10- 11 ounce first flushes with coir. I haven't done enough hpoo grows to give an accurate average but it would likely be slightly higher.


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Offlineinvitro

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo]
    #21532567 - 04/11/15 11:14 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Bricks of coir are very easy to deal with.  I have the 5kg bricks and when I want to use some I take a 6" flat head screw driver and break off large flakes length-wise.  Then soak them in water for a bit and the coir becomes super-loose and easy to deal with.  The price on loose coir is a lot higher where I am.

If you use 650g bricks, just toss it into water and come back 5-15 minutes later, it's really loose then.

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: invitro]
    #21532571 - 04/11/15 11:16 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I'd buy the loose shit if I could. I generally break up all my bricks when I buy them and store the broken up coir in a large tub. That way it's ready to go when I want to use it.


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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532580 - 04/11/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I think if you look at the numbers, isolating strains produces statistically insignificant results. How many strains on a single petri dish from a spore inoculation? Ten thousand maybe? Let's exaggerate the point and say it's only ten.

Now let's say there's enough spores in a syringe to noc up 100 plates - that's 1000 strains. Then there's individual strains that are compatible and form new strains... but skip those. Say 1000 strains per syringe, and bear in mind, that's underrated by a couple orders of magnitude lol.

How many syringes do you suppose are out there? Between vendors and shroomers, does 1000 syringes sound like a low enough number to be fair? so that's 1000 syringes x 1000 strains each of a given variety. That equals one million potential isolates.

If you wanted to do enough tubs to get a sampling representing one-half of one percent of the available strains you would have to grow out five thousand tubs.

Bear in mind that I've underestimated the potential strains by an insane amount in order to keep the numbers out of the realm of scientific notation.

So given the numbers, what does growing out 10, 20, or even 100 different isolates prove? Absolutely nothing at all. The sample size is so small, it doesn't prove anything other than things that apply to that particular isolate.

I also think hpoo performs better than coir but I think it is because hpoo holds more water. I'll bet that if someone were to noc up a dozen jars, and soak six of them before spawning to coir, and spawn the other 6 to poo without soaking the grains first, they'd perform about the same.

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21532591 - 04/11/15 11:20 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

The bricks are cheaper, but not by much. Time is the most expensive commodity in my life


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532622 - 04/11/15 11:27 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Quote:

spacechildo said:
hateful ass? dude wtf?
Most peoples grain jars arent almost full. 2/3's is normal.

8 jars x 1 qt x 2/3 full is just as much as
4 jars x 2 qt (half gallon) x 2/3.



How many hydrated cups of grain do you put in your coir jars?
I put about 4 in my half gallon jars.





your journal said 5 cups total, so I do about half as we both have 2/3s filled but your jars are twice the size.
I've never really measured hydrated grains I just load in jars :shrug:

I still dont see why I'm a hateful ass just because I have different opinions and observations than you :confused2:

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21532636 - 04/11/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MudaFuka said:
cubes are over 90% water. So the substrate makes up less than 10% of the mushroom. about 1/3 of the substrate is made of grain so cubes are made of less than 6% coir or hpoo. it really comes down to how much water you can pack into your sub. Hpoo may hold more or maybe people who claim lesser results from coir aren't hydrating it as much as they could. I have noticed that hpoo retains water better so maybe some people are letting there coir dry out slightly. My first flush MS average with coir is 5-6 ounces. My best MS on coir yields are about 10 ounces in the first flush. With a good clone I can consistently pull 10- 11 ounce first flushes with coir. I haven't done enough hpoo grows to give an accurate average but it would likely be slightly higher.




This is absolutely correct. 

Would also like to add that on top of how much water you can comfortably pack into your sub with out compromising the colonizing of the mushroom mycelium, it's also very important to guard that moisture content like a bank during spawn run.

Horse Manure is King of bulk substrate materials for cubensis for a SLEW of reasons, in my opinion and experience.  Despite cow & buffalo manure being what cubensis mushrooms grow on in the wild. 

Personally, I go out of my way to gather field aged horse manure as a bulk substrate material.  Horse Manure is free, full of nutes, and beneficial microbes.


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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: spacechildo]
    #21532652 - 04/11/15 11:34 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Well i use a cup that is 1 1/4 and it is slightly rounded. 1 1/4 × 3 = 3 3/4 + the rounded part.
I said you're a beautiful man, nit a hateful ass.
You know i like you spacey.

You guys have fun arguing this shit. My advice is to just do half your grows on poo and half on coir. And in a few months choose whichever one you like better. I'm going to put the canoe in cause it's 75 degrees here today.
Later ya'll


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: hamloaf]
    #21532665 - 04/11/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Horse manure is so fluffy. You don't need straw added unlike with cpoo.

I've seen lots of nice grows with coir and potent fruits too. Doesn't seem to make much of a difference. Imo what matters more is the person growing them


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532668 - 04/11/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:super:

OK azur, just one last time for spacey: you use 3 of these rounded cups and not 4?
are you sure? cause that gives you even less than half full jars. half full 0,5gallon jar = 1 qt = 4 cups. so 3 3/4 cups is less than half full.

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: azur]
    #21532670 - 04/11/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Muda and Hamloaf said:
Water makes the mushrooms get real big.




This single thread has more useful info in it than most of the rest of the site :thumbup:

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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: hamloaf]
    #21532678 - 04/11/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have used mainly coir for one reason. My drivers license is suspended and with my busy schedule it is nearly impossible for me to get out to the country to pick up Hpoo. Now that I'm getting my license back I will be switching to poo. Mostly because it is free and at present coir is the most expensive material I use. Switching to poo will bring my costs down to about 3 cents an ounce.


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Re: H-poo, or coir/verm bulk substrate? (Poll) [Re: Srirachi]
    #21532708 - 04/11/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
So given the numbers, what does growing out 10, 20, or even 100 different isolates prove? Absolutely nothing at all. The sample size is so small, it doesn't prove anything other than things that apply to that particular isolate.




True but unless that isolate is such an extreme mutation that the normal parameters of the species do not apply, its still the best means to determine the impacts of a given variable.

Lets say that I had a theory that people develop heart disease from eating starch. I then randomly grab 20 people off the street and make ten eat starch and ten eat no starch. It is very possible that the ten I made eat starch were genetically disposed to heart disease and the others were not. Its a small sample size so my data is skewed because those individuals were at risk to develop heart disease no matter what their diet was.

Now if I could clone one of those people and do several controlled tests to determine if they had predispositions and then factor for those then my results could be a lot more definitive with a far smaller sample size. Across a population of people to do a test like that I would need 1000's of subjects and run the values carefully. If I can clone them we can do far more specific testing to see first what the genetics are disposed to do, and then run few subjects to get decent results.

We can't clone people, or isolate people. We can with fungi. Yes a single set of genetics is not 100% determinate but, its far more focused than ms. The very fact that there are strains that are predisposed not to fruit at all, and can dominate a sub via aggressive anastomosis means that while you may need to run a dozen side by sides to come up with really solid data on a given subject with a known set of genetics or clone, you would need to run far more with the randomness of ms at play.

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