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OfflinerxbS
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555242 - 04/16/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

you have it correct.

and i think he is a hero


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[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21555254 - 04/16/15 12:57 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Watergate was a small scale version of what Snowden exposed.






Watergate was a small scale version of Hillary's e-mail erasure.  Just what illegalities do you think Snowden exposed, anyway?  How many prosecutions and lawsuits have come about because of it?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: rxb]
    #21555257 - 04/16/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

He may be a hero, but he's also a criminal.  I'm all for praising the man for the things he did right, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for the wrongs he did.

BTW, how is he a hero if he's not responsible for what the Times publishes?  If he gets credit for the good, why not blame for the bad?


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OfflinerxbS
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: rxb]
    #21555278 - 04/16/15 01:02 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

he is responsible for leaking the information to the press.

the press is responsible for leaking it to the world.

george washington broke oaths to the king of england.

for the right reason.

the difference between a law breaker and a patriot sometimes depends on what side you stand on.

the government was breaking the law. the laws they set. they could have made different laws, but those were the ones they made and they broke them. they were laws specifically designed for the nsa and cia that were broken by the nsa and the cia.

and when the laws were too much of an obsticle they worked around them by using a foreign office *uk*... and gave the uk info back.

its fucked up.

i'm glad he did it.

the man is a hero and true patriot.

being a patriot sometimes means doing whats right when it had a huge cost.

and he loves this country.

and cant come here without facing death.

because he did the RIGHT thing and snitched on the government.

i guess snitches get stitches.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555314 - 04/16/15 01:10 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Enlil, I usually think you are right on issues, especially anything law related but I have to disagree here. Granted that what snowden did was illegal. Granted that giving it to the press broke laws. How is the media blameless for distributing it? They knew what was in it.

Your comparison to the post office delivering anthrax is ludicrous. As has been pointed out, by rxb I think it was, the mailman and post office had no idea what was in the packages but the times surely did.

Snow is a modern day patriot and hero. I'm sure our founding fathers would have done something similar if they had lived today. It was the tyranny of England that lead to lawbreaking and finally a new nation. Today's tyranny comes from our govt gone amuck breaking laws left and right with no one holding them accountable.  Orwell's 1984 has been surpassed by a wide margin by recent presidents, the current occupant being the worst of a long line. We have to do something to get back on track and this is one way to do it.


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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21555357 - 04/16/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, just because the times makes money off of it doesn't mean they aren't responsible.  That makes no sense.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555367 - 04/16/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
He may be a hero, but he's also a criminal.  I'm all for praising the man for the things he did right, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished for the wrongs he did.

BTW, how is he a hero if he's not responsible for what the Times publishes?  If he gets credit for the good, why not blame for the bad?





I guess, where I stand on this issue, is that he is being charged with things like 'espionage', etc. I suppose if he were to be charged with some minor charge of clerical negligence or some shit like that, I could possibly see some validation in taking him to court, and he very well might even show up for that court date.

In reality, when you look at this, you know that Snowden probably wouldn't even get a trial, he'd probably be thrown in Guantanamo on grounds of 'terrorist behavior' or some other shit like that. He would probably get Bradley Manninged. You can't argue that the reaction to Snowdens actions was WAY out of proportion, and it is because of a personal vendetta on behalf of government officials, not because of some minor slip up in one of a thousand fucking pages of information. If he returned to the US he would be all but fucking burned alive. That is not the country I want to live in.

His intention was to blow the whistle on a preposterous level of betrayal committed by the NSA and CIA, not to hurt our service people in Iraq. He is nothing but a hero, in my book, and that isn't likely to change. He is living in Russia freezing his nuts off every day for this country. He gave up so much, it's unimaginable to me.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Shins]
    #21555376 - 04/16/15 01:27 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

They aren't responsible because they had no duty to protect the information.  Snowden does. The fact that the times makes money doing it is what makes Snowden responsible. That fact should have told Snowden that the times would release whatever they got.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21555381 - 04/16/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Guantanamo doesn't house us citizens.  Of course,  he'd get a trial.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555393 - 04/16/15 01:31 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

>They aren't responsible because they had no duty to protect the information.

The media has no duty to protect info they know to be classified?

>The fact that the times makes money doing it is what makes Snowden responsible.

Link? This part makes no sense at all.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Shins]
    #21555405 - 04/16/15 01:34 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Yeah, just because the times makes money off of it doesn't mean they aren't responsible.  That makes no sense.




Enlil is saying that Snowden is the more responsible party, because he is the one that was granted access to these documents by the government, and he used that access to retrieve and distribute the documents to 3rd parties.

He has a point, but I don't think it's strong enough to make the case that Snowden is a bad guy, or should be charged with espionage, etc.

I do think that a publication like the NY Times does hold some level of responsibility, and to their credit, they did take measures (however feeble they may have been) to redact certain information. This in my mind is a demonstration of their understanding that measures had to be taken on their part, and their failure to adequately pursue that.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555411 - 04/16/15 01:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Guantanamo doesn't house us citizens.  Of course,  he'd get a trial.




Guantanamo house Bradley Manning for a significant period of time.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21555425 - 04/16/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Guantanamo doesn't house us citizens.  Of course,  he'd get a trial.




Guantanamo house Bradley Manning for a significant period of time.



I believe this to be wholly false.  Please cite a source.

According to wiki, Manning was never in Guantanamo:

"She was held at the Marine Corps Brig, Quantico in Virginia, from July 2010 to April 2011 under Prevention of Injury status—which entailed de facto solitary confinement and other restrictions that caused domestic and international concern—before being transferred to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, where she could interact with other detainees.[10] She pleaded guilty in February 2013 to 10 of the charges.[11] The trial on the remaining charges began on June 3, 2013, and on July 30 she was convicted of 17 of the original charges and amended versions of four others, but was acquitted of aiding the enemy.[1] She is serving a 35-year sentence at the maximum-security U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth.[12]"


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21555432 - 04/16/15 01:41 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Yeah, just because the times makes money off of it doesn't mean they aren't responsible.  That makes no sense.




Enlil is saying that Snowden is the more responsible party, because he is the one that was granted access to these documents by the government, and he used that access to retrieve and distribute the documents to 3rd parties.

He has a point, but I don't think it's strong enough to make the case that Snowden is a bad guy, or should be charged with espionage, etc.

I do think that a publication like the NY Times does hold some level of responsibility, and to their credit, they did take measures (however feeble they may have been) to redact certain information. This in my mind is a demonstration of their understanding that measures had to be taken on their part, and their failure to adequately pursue that.



See, if he had decided to turn over these documents to someone who has a duty of confidentiality, I'd probably feel differently.  Instead he gave them to a corporation so that the corporation could make money off of the information.

I'm not okay with that, and I'm shocked that you are.

There is a profit motive being served here, and the corporation doesn't care how many lives are put at risk as long as it brings them income.  Snowden chose that route.  He had many other routes he could have chosen.


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OfflinerxbS
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555523 - 04/16/15 02:06 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

sometimes its ok to do bad things for good outcomes.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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OfflinerxbS
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: rxb]
    #21555532 - 04/16/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

i tend to think that the government is of the people and for the people.

what the NSA was doing was for SOME people BY some people AGAINST the people.

so, he did something bad, because it was what was right.

the press should have kept the redacted part redacted.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: rxb]
    #21555537 - 04/16/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I agree, but he didn't need to release thousands of documents to get a good outcome.  He could have chosen to release only that which pertained to domestic surveillance.  Instead, he released information about specific operations in foreign countries as well.  That didn't serve a good outcome.

I'm all for giving him credit for what he did right, but he should also be punished for what he did wrong.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555542 - 04/16/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
See, if he had decided to turn over these documents to someone who has a duty of confidentiality, I'd probably feel differently.  Instead he gave them to a corporation so that the corporation could make money off of the information.

I'm not okay with that, and I'm shocked that you are.

There is a profit motive being served here, and the corporation doesn't care how many lives are put at risk as long as it brings them income.  Snowden chose that route.  He had many other routes he could have chosen.




If he had turned it over to 'someone who has a duty of confidentiality' it would have been buried. He had limited options, and I feel that in choosing the NY Times he actually made a good choice. They are a highly regarded news source and generally more ethical than most. They actually did take measures to redact harmful information, the measures were just inadequate. I think this demonstrates that the corporation does care. However, I do think that wikileaks would have been a better option, as they are more accustomed handling this sort of thing.

I looked into Bradley Manning. Apparently you're right, he wasn't held in Guantanamo. His treatment in Quantico was absolutely abhorrent though, which is really what I'm getting at. That or worse would probably happen to Snowden. They would eat him alive.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

Bradley Manning got 35 years for exposing US Marines murdering innocent civilians. He was held for 11 months in solitary without a trial. He was made to strip naked every night, and refused a pillow, sheets, or blanket. This has been deemed psychological torture by the UN.

Tell me this. Do you really believe that Snowden should be charged with Espionage? Do you have no appreciation for what he has done? Do you have any appreciation for the insignificance of the material that was not properly redacted?

They're even accusing him of taking part in 9/11. Do you think his trial will be a fair one? It won't.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: rxb]
    #21555544 - 04/16/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
the press should have kept the redacted part redacted.



It wasn't redacted when Snowden handed it over.  He gave them everything without regard to the damage that might be done.


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Re: President bans donations to Snowden [Re: Enlil]
    #21555549 - 04/16/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

i dont think thats true.

but even if it is. i think im ok with it.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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