Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Building My First PC
    #21375863 - 03/07/15 07:16 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

I posted this in the pub:
Quote:

Shroomism said:
Quote:

kr0nik0 said:
So now I'm looking to sell this one, and the dell on ebay and get a decent (probably used) desktop or laptop.
I was thinking about an HP for around 300 like sheekle got, but I've been looking into putting together my own tower and actually be able to run CPU hogging software like games and music production programs.

So, my question is, about how much would I be looking at to put together a tower that has a great CPU, video card, RAM, etc..?

Any websites you guys suggest to learn a bit more about putting together a PC?
And any other sites besides newegg.com where I should be buying parts from?

Thanks




Start a new thread in the Gaming Grotto
Our professional staff of PC Master Race™ gurus will be more than happy to assist.
You can put together a halfway decent gaming PC for ~500 if you go with cheap parts
If you want something a little more high end and capable you are looking at closer to $1,000-2,000 for something very respectable.
Building a system is very easy, a well trained monkey could probably do it. It's mostly a matter of picking compatible parts. After that it's Legos.
Newegg has always been the goto but lately the game has been shifting some as Amazon and places like Pricewatch.com can find better deals sometimes.




So now I'm over here to get some expert advice as I move along the steps of building my first computer.

First thing obviously is going to be the tower itself. I've been looking on newegg, but don't know exactly what I should be looking for. So any suggestions for a tower would be awesome. :thumbup:

Any help is greatly appreciated in this thread. Thank you.

*Also, Shroomism mentioned $1-2 thousand. My budget is $600-800. I just need a PC that is able to quickly browse the web, use as a word and image processor, play a few games (nothing too crazy), and run music production software.


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinemndfreezeMDiscordReddit
Shroomery Secret Service
Other User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 20,533
Loc: PuppetMasterFlash
Last seen: 9 hours, 31 minutes
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376120 - 03/07/15 08:36 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

One of the big factors on cost is going to be you deciding what 'play a few video games' really means.  Because you can EASILY build a fast machine for within your budget if gaming is no concern at all, since gaming video cards are one of the major costs. 

I built my gaming machine for 1400, or rather I picked out the parts and the place I bought it from
built and tested it then shipped it, for 1400.  At the time I got a video card that was near the top and it was roughly 400ish. 

So getting a ssytem with a fast CPU, decent ram and board, etc can easily be done.  Decide what sort of gaming you will really be doing and what expectations you have and you can adjust around it from there to keep it within budget.

If you are only playing much  older games, or facebook/webpage type games then tyou can use a cheapy onboard video and save a grip of cash.  If you want to be able to play games that are pretty new then you will still need to plan to drop 100 to 150ish for a midrange video card IMO.  There is an inverse reward to cost ratio near the low end and the high end of the spectrum of cards with the biggest 'benefit' on either side of the middle.  So like a 75$ card will perform exponentially worse then the 125$ cheapy card does.


--------------------
Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus!

quote]Urb said:
I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: mndfreeze]
    #21376140 - 03/07/15 08:45 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Well, let me be more specific as to what gaming I would be doing. I assume that would help everyone here quite a bit more than just saying "a few games."

The main one is Flight Simulator 2012 Professional and X. I've been trying to play FlightSim at a decent framrate for over a decade, and it's never fulfilled my needs due to never having a fast enough PC. Therefore, FlightSim would be the program on my PC that uses the most processing power.
Besides that, I mess around with a few steam games like DOTA, but not very often. So by no means would this be a "gaming computer."

The rest of my computing needs consist of browsing the internet, and word processing really.

Thank you for the input. Do you have any suggestions at what cases (what brands) I should be looking at?
I don't need it to fit anywhere specific so it can be any size. I'm just trying to figure out if there are cases out there that are much better than others. Thanks.


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376144 - 03/07/15 08:47 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Use this site to pick your parts and make sure they are all compatible - http://pcpartpicker.com/parts/partlist/

Here's a recent $500 gaming build video


http://pcpartpicker.com/p/8wpwpg
Looks pretty decent. The only thing I wouldn't recommend from that would be the Fractal Design PSU.. go with a reputable PSU like Corsair, Seasonic.
I'd also personally probably switch the R9 280x for a GTX 970 or something.. making it look something like this:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/HmhxCJ

If you aren't planning on doing extreme gaming, you could save a bit more money by downgrading the GPU to a GTX 960 and save a hundred or so

That keeps it under 800. In the future you will want to add an SSD for your boot drive when you have the funds. A 256GB one or something.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376162 - 03/07/15 08:53 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

In terms of the Flight Simulator.. I know they can be both pretty CPU and GPU intensive.. with CPU you want the faster clock speeds.. definitely want to go with an Intel CPU. That i3-4150 is probably the best price point you will get.
GPU you want the most VRAM possible, so a 3GB would be a good idea to go with.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: Shroomism]
    #21376166 - 03/07/15 08:54 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Thanks for the links man.
Keep in mind I'm just starting out, and have basically no knowledge of hardware.

So aside from the case, what are the first couple pieces of hardware I should buy?

Also, is it worth it to do a liquid cooling system? I hear so much about it but I assume it wouldn't be needed for what I'm using the PC for.

By SSD you mean a solid state hard drive right? Would that be in addition to a hard drive I already will install, or just have 1 SSD?


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376183 - 03/07/15 09:00 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

First time building a PC, you probably don't want to go anywhere near water cooling. That will up the cost and difficulty of your build significantly.
The only exception to that I might make is the "all-in-one" self-contained CPU liquid cooler loops like the Corsair H80i and so on which are rather nice and beginner friendly.

You need Case, Motherboard, Processor, Graphics Card, RAM, Hard Drive, Power Supply. Assuming you already have a monitor/keyboard/mouse.

Liquid cooling is generally only really useful for overclocking, or people who push their systems to the max a lot.

SSD = Solid state drive yes, and yes it would be in addition to a hard drive you already have installed.
Ideally you could get one right away but that would bump the total cost of your build up.
SSD is where you would want to install your OS to, along with your most used/intensive games.
Large 1TB or larger hard drive would serve as your mass data/music/videos/etc/etc/backup/ drive.

SSD will give you a huge boost in overall system responsiveness compared to a mechanical hard drive. It's the best upgrade you can get with a modern PC, assuming CPU and GPU are up to par.
So if you don't get an SSD right off the bat, that's ok.. you can install your OS on your mechanical drive.
But that will definitely be the first thing you want to upgrade.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: Shroomism]
    #21376200 - 03/07/15 09:06 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Great! liquid cooling I was more curious about than anything else, so forget that.

I'll start out looking for just the motherboard and processor for now. Currently only have around $350 getting started.
As far as my monitor goes, I have a 55" 3D LG Smart TV. Would it be possible to connect the PC to my TV via HDMI?

With the HD, when I get there, I think I should shell out the extra money from the get go for a SSD. It's not necessary to have 2 HD's, correct?

And sorry to ask again, but I really need some suggestions for the case/tower. I wanted to put my order in for it tonight.


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376233 - 03/07/15 09:16 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Just have to make sure everything is compatible. Just check this out - http://pcpartpicker.com/p/HmhxCJ
That mini cougar case looks to be the best bang for your buck.. best case for $30 anyway.. doesn't seem to have any cable management though.
If you want to step up from that I would suggest a corsair case like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139008 or http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139021

You don't need more hard drives.. unless you need more storage. But you definitely want an SSD.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: Shroomism]
    #21376274 - 03/07/15 09:33 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

I'll start looking into them right now, and post what case I end up getting later on.

Tomorrow I'll start researching and buying the CPU so I'll need some more help.
Thank you for the help so far man. I had no clue where to even begin until now.

Edit: Was that first link a full build that you made for my price range?
That's gonna help me out so much. :awesome:


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Edited by kr0nik0 (03/07/15 09:46 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Building My First PC [Re: Shroomism]
    #21376552 - 03/07/15 11:22 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:

I'd also personally probably switch the R9 280x for a GTX 970 or something.. making it look something like this:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/HmhxCJ






pretty much like this list

i3-4160 is only a few more bucks, could shave a few bucks w/ an h81 chipset, if i had to choose rotational or ssd to get started, i'd just drop the money on a 250gb ssd and snag a rotational for media when i had more money, most people don't even want to piss w/ another clean install...

so my list is gonna be yours w/ a few tweaks 4160, asus h81m-k, samsung 850 evo 250gb, gtx 960 superclocked, corsair 300r, oh and definitely the antec hcg m 750w for $65 on sale atm (it's a rebranded seasonic, johnny guru gave it a 9.2, really nice bang for the buck PSU, i own one in my second rig)

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/p86jK8

$657.78

here's a review on that psu  http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story9&reid=357


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21376570 - 03/07/15 11:31 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

The build that you put together for me is just about perfect. 
It's in my budget, and has beyond the necessary specs I need. Thank you.

Shroomism didn't get a chance to answer my monitor question. Maybe you would be able to.
Can I use a 55" SmartTV as the monitor via HDMI? If so, what hardware do I have to buy in order to have an HDMI out installed in the computer? Does it have a specific name?


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376583 - 03/07/15 11:38 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Of course you can, The GTX 960 graphics card will have 1 HDMI port, so all you need is an hdmi cable long enough to reach the TV.  I vastly prefer a good computer monitor, but you may like that setup, so may as well give it a shot.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21376592 - 03/07/15 11:43 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Oh right on.
That's what I was confused about; If the HDMI port came attached to the video card, or if it was a separate piece of hardware. Thanks.

I would personally rather have a nice, large monitor as well but it wouldn't be in my budget for a while. Around how much does say... a decent 27" monitor cost? And what brands should I be looking at?


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376606 - 03/07/15 11:51 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

A big 27" 1080p gaming orientated monitor would probably run about $240? Most people think Asus is a pretty good bang for the buck, but I'm a big fan of Dell Ultrasharps, they're pricey but if you wait for a coupon and buy off their refurb store it can make a massive difference.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblekr0nik0
Ole' Salty
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 17,756
Loc: Western Slope, CO Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21376610 - 03/07/15 11:54 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------

“[...]the only people for me are the mad ones,
the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk,
mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes “Awww!”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinemndfreezeMDiscordReddit
Shroomery Secret Service
Other User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 20,533
Loc: PuppetMasterFlash
Last seen: 9 hours, 31 minutes
Re: Building My First PC [Re: kr0nik0]
    #21376709 - 03/08/15 12:48 AM (9 years, 24 days ago)

You should do some investigation on the flight sim software and what people say about it regarding if its more cpu or gpu dependant.  I've seen some flight sims that were insanely heavy on the GPU side of things as much as any other modern game, and others where the gpu usage was minimal but you really needed some cpu horsepower to run it nice.

I like all the setups people posted so far so im not going to bother making yet another one.

also nvidia over amd, for sure, on video cards

cpu intel over amd, for sure, unless you just cannot budget it any other way.

Right now Intel is decidedly better then amd chips in all but price, you get what you pay for here.

GPU's are a lot closer in performance, but I find nvidia cards to just be better built, longer lasting, and better driver support.  I've had to many mishaps and problems over the years with ATI (now AMD, but have not owned one since the buyout)


--------------------
Nothing says love like grannies prolapsed anus!

quote]Urb said:
I know... Its fucked up... Ill fix it minyana..[/quote]

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21376775 - 03/08/15 01:25 AM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Shroomism said:

I'd also personally probably switch the R9 280x for a GTX 970 or something.. making it look something like this:
http://pcpartpicker.com/p/HmhxCJ






pretty much like this list

i3-4160 is only a few more bucks, could shave a few bucks w/ an h81 chipset, if i had to choose rotational or ssd to get started, i'd just drop the money on a 250gb ssd and snag a rotational for media when i had more money, most people don't even want to piss w/ another clean install...

so my list is gonna be yours w/ a few tweaks 4160, asus h81m-k, samsung 850 evo 250gb, gtx 960 superclocked, corsair 300r, oh and definitely the antec hcg m 750w for $65 on sale atm (it's a rebranded seasonic, johnny guru gave it a 9.2, really nice bang for the buck PSU, i own one in my second rig)

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/p86jK8

$657.78

here's a review on that psu  http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story9&reid=357




:thumbup:
I second these nominations.. I didn't really put much time/thought into the build I linked.. just took it from some other guys basic build with a tweak or two.
This would be a solid as fuck setup methinks. Oh and one more thing he'll need is a DVD burner/CD player. $15
Flight Sim 2012 I believe is largely CPU dependent but also utilizes the GPU pretty heavily


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Building My First PC [Re: Shroomism]
    #21376812 - 03/08/15 01:44 AM (9 years, 24 days ago)

If we really wanted a legit gaming rig sub $800 (his max price point), it appears you can do an i5-4960k and an asrock z97 pro 4 at $799.18

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/r8FyRB

(had to drop down to a crucial SSD, hits same read speed, considerably lower writes, but meh, still gonna be baller for a first SSD)

I don't use CD/DVD players at all, have downloaded all media for a long time :pirate:... would recommend a thumb drive or two personally for all things bootable


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension Flag
Re: Building My First PC [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21376842 - 03/08/15 03:10 AM (9 years, 24 days ago)

I have like 12 within 3 feet of me I think


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* WoW
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Holydiver 11,550 89 02/11/09 05:52 PM
by xpl0de
* Dragon Age Tactics help...
( 1 2 3 all )
5HTSynaptrip 5,522 50 11/22/09 01:23 AM
by Tedwilto
* whats your "gaming" mouse?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
lexmark 7,029 71 05/25/09 05:48 PM
by 5HTSynaptrip
* need new gfx card,,,, what to get?? lexmark 668 8 05/06/09 02:52 AM
by Merkin
* l4d question ManianFH 815 6 01/27/09 10:32 PM
by ManianFH
* Warhammer Online
( 1 2 all )
aDoS 4,946 39 09/12/08 09:00 PM
by Helixx
* Starting up WoW again. Class suggestions? Druggie04 1,285 14 02/02/09 04:05 AM
by CosmicJoke
* Why I choose to be a PC gamer but without sounding like an elitist snob. Cannabischarlie 2,348 13 10/28/09 04:36 AM
by CosmicJoke

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Ythan, Anno, Thor, Link, Seuss, Shroomism, CookieCrumbs
1,552 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.