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 Wydue Wanano
MUH SCIENCE
 
Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 37
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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 Question on invitro pins and consolidation 
#20774611 - 10/30/14 08:47 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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So I've got these two jars:
The first is on a 50/50 BRF/millet cake, the second is a plain BRF. They've been fully colonized/consolidating for ~2 days but are beginning to produce teensy pins as shown. These pins seem less than 24h old.
As far as I'm aware consolidation is just additional time spent metabolizing energy from the substrate, so I'd expect the BRF/millet cake to take especially long due to higher energy content. Forum search has yielded suggested consolidation times between 1 week and a month, but haven't found much info about pinning occurring during this period, and whether it's a good sign.
Why is pinning occurring so early? Should I continue to consolidate or dunk'n'roll right now?
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W'sup, I'm a fourth year chem major. Got chemistry questions? Ask me! I know the most about physical and organic chemistry.
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 bodhisatta  
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Wydue Wanano]
#20774627 - 10/30/14 08:51 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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if they want to fruit then fruit the things. wash off any un-colonized substrate. listen to your mushrooms first. there's probably some bacteria but from the looks of it your cakes are fine.
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Munchauzen
Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,344
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: bodhisatta]
#20774633 - 10/30/14 08:52 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wydue Wanano
MUH SCIENCE
Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 37
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: bodhisatta]
#20774706 - 10/30/14 09:05 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Excellent, thank you. Contam is definitely not a worry of mine here, first grow with the proper equipment and I'm running at a (knock on wood) 100% uncontaminated rate out of 20 jars.
It just seemed like such standard practice to consolidate for >a week, was really curious as to why this is happening so soon. I've read that the oxygen demands of fruiting myc is less than of colonizing myc, maybe once colonization finished the previous rate of GE lowered the [CO2] enough to initiate pinning?
I've actually been looking for published studies on the metabolic processes in psilocybe species, there really isn't much... thanks again, legal status.
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W'sup, I'm a fourth year chem major. Got chemistry questions? Ask me! I know the most about physical and organic chemistry.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Wydue Wanano]
#20774715 - 10/30/14 09:08 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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they'll easily consolidate for a week if they're 100% clean. measure your biological efficiency a lot of substrates have bacteria in them but do just fine sometimes you can only tell by your yields you even had a problem in the first place.
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Wydue Wanano
MUH SCIENCE
Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 37
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: bodhisatta]
#20774812 - 10/30/14 09:30 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's really interesting, I'll certainly keep an eye on BE, if I can even measure that with certainty. Would that mean that hypothetical contaminants were introduced before full colonization, or after? I was under the impression that any bacterium around in uncolonized substrate would quickly grow to be obvious.
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W'sup, I'm a fourth year chem major. Got chemistry questions? Ask me! I know the most about physical and organic chemistry.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada 
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Wydue Wanano]
#20774894 - 10/30/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Most of the invisible contams are bacterial. Endospores do survive a PC cycle but usually are so damaged that they are inconsequential. Sometimes with grain that has a really high endospore count this can be a problem, but there are ways around it. This is not usually an issue with cakes as rice has a very low endospore count.
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Wydue Wanano
MUH SCIENCE
Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 37
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20775008 - 10/30/14 10:18 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is the first mention I've ever heard of "invisible contams." If an endospore is so damaged it can't reproduce, isn't it essentially dead? What effect do these have on growth if they are not reproducing?
Also I totally figured out what's going on as I was taking them out of the jars. The very top layer was almost bone dry, so while it appeared as if it had only just finished colonizing, it had actually been done and was consolidating for a good deal longer than I'd thought.
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W'sup, I'm a fourth year chem major. Got chemistry questions? Ask me! I know the most about physical and organic chemistry.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Wydue Wanano]
#20775033 - 10/30/14 10:26 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wydue Wanano said:
This is the first mention I've ever heard of "invisible contams." If an endospore is so damaged it can't reproduce, isn't it essentially dead? What effect do these have on growth if they are not reproducing?
Endospores germinate into bacteria, the bacteria reproduces and some of them become endospores when conditions deteriorate. A damaged endospore is perfectly capable of recovering but it does take time. When we "sterilize" we actually don't kill all the endospores. You would need to run an 8 hour PC cycle to do that. We damage them enough to provide a "window with which to colonize". But there is always a possibility that a couple can recover and start problems. Usually this means poor to no colonization of some grains which are then easy pickings for mold.
Most of the time I doubt people even realize this is happening. But it does. To fully kill all endospores you need to go to pretty extreme lengths. Incidentally this is why GLC is a terrible idea.
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Wydue Wanano
MUH SCIENCE
Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 37
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20775275 - 10/30/14 11:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah all of this is news to me, I was under the impression that PCing killed everything good and dead because nobody ever mentions otherwise.
Yeah, endospores are a bacterial survival tactic and are insanely durable, I just don't know how you'd damage one without killing it. PCing probably doesn't break their cell envelope because endospores are tough as nails, but if it denatures their proteins, how do they germinate?
This is way beyond the scope of what I was asking originally but the scientist in me can't help it.
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W'sup, I'm a fourth year chem major. Got chemistry questions? Ask me! I know the most about physical and organic chemistry.
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ThePython
The Trouser Snake
Registered: 03/04/14
Posts: 118
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: Pastywhyte]
#20775562 - 10/31/14 01:39 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Endospores germinate into bacteria, the bacteria reproduces and some of them become endospores when conditions deteriorate. A damaged endospore is perfectly capable of recovering but it does take time. When we "sterilize" we actually don't kill all the endospores. You would need to run an 8 hour PC cycle to do that. We damage them enough to provide a "window with which to colonize". But there is always a possibility that a couple can recover and start problems. Usually this means poor to no colonization of some grains which are then easy pickings for mold.
didn't know that and normally i would take the information in and not make a response but immediately felt that comment deserved a clap.  good info
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend
Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,842
Loc: Canada
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Re: Question on invitro pins and consolidation [Re: ThePython]
#20775876 - 10/31/14 05:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not sure how they are able to recover but I was always told that the damage is what slows them down. Its not common but if you ever grow a slow species that dislikes shaking you might see it first hand. My first time observing thus was when I tried galindoi. One of the jars had a corner that it took the culture a long time to reach. By the time it did I could see that there was bacteria there. We are talking a span of months however so if your growing cubes its doubtful you would see this yourself, unless your grain has a high endospore count.
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