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OfflineDilated
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Re: Growing fruits from grain "agar" & scubbies! No fruiting chamber, verm, subs, dunks, misting, etc. [Re: MudaFuka]
    #20727463 - 10/20/14 02:07 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

This is very interesting stuff Violet.  Always enjoy reading your write ups.  I may have to give this a try as I intend to delve deeper into isolate testing.  Was thinking of splitting up a monotub with sections but I would sort of be wasting the use of a monotub (wasting I mean, not using it for big yields with proven genetics). 

Keep pushing mycology into the future, you're doing a great job.

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OfflineChk
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20727732 - 10/20/14 06:21 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I planned to start 4 container with your method some minutes ago :
got some problem with the recipe you gave ->
i added 600 ml of water to 150g BRF  it's already fucking thick once cooked, far more solid than the jello like stuff you described , and i didn't even add agar yet !!!

In your opinion should i skip the agar, or add more water ?

Edit : it completly solidified during the time i took to type this post XD
i got a nice brf cake molded in my casserole !

Edit2 : i finally opted for more water, adding 100 ml at a time, i ended up using 800 ml for 150g BRF, and still got a relatively thick slurry,
also since i had enough for one more container, but no scrubbie left, i added a ball of strong recycled paper instead, will update on the result.

Edited by Chk (10/20/14 08:59 AM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Chk]
    #20728057 - 10/20/14 08:59 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

The starchy brf water does help with calling for so little agar-agar but it sounds like yours is far thicker than it should be.

I'm wondering if I should reduce the recipe in the post for the sake of people trying it out for the first time.  Individual's fine-tuning can come after learning how the grow works.  I'm still not entirely settled on a recipe myself.

But I am also wondering about your casserole rice mush cake. Haven't experienced anything like thick gel blocks of only BRF cooked into water.
4 times as much water should be plenty to avoid that happening.  But maybe if you're boiling the crap out of it for a super long time I could see it becoming like that.  If one severely over-cooks whole rice it can expand to around 4 times its original size.

My wording in the post was indeed "suspend as much of the flour into the water as possible" and "can't really boil too long" so perhaps I was trying to keep it too simple.
I do know that boiling it for an extra long time, something I consider to be unnecessary and superfluous (time and energy) and don't end up doing, can almost completely expand and emulsify the brown rice matter.

In PF tek the brown rice flour itself is wettened by contact with wet verm and steamed or pressure cooked in sterilization so it won't expand to as much as it could. Boiling it in liquid water is different and it could expand enough to be like a big mushy soggy grain would if the water could be though of as being boiled into it rather than looking at it as being boiled in the water.

When I cook brown rice to sterilize (I cook it a little longer to eat) I have it on a steady, not strong, rolling boil for about 20 minutes, sometimes slightly more depending on how I cool it off after straining if at all.  It ends up being up to 2.5 times its original volume when not over-cooked.  So perhaps I should set that as a suggested limit for first experiments.


I'm adding two things to the original post: A slightly reduced recipe suggestion for people's first experiments, and a note about boiling the flour notably less than you would if it were a whole grain (or using more water if you do)


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Edited by Violet (10/20/14 09:16 AM)

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OfflineChk
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20728062 - 10/20/14 09:01 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

just for info: it nearly "solidified" 30 second after the water got hot, it was pretty fast


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Chk]
    #20728106 - 10/20/14 09:22 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Haven't seen anything like that.
And to tell the truth I'm not sure what to say. I might have to explore my preparation a bit to find out what could be different, because for whatever reason I haven't encountered that.  I thought it may be possible that different people doing things in different ways or scenarios could call for some adjustments but that surprises me.  Do I recall the recipe differently? Is my coffee grinder homemade rice flour not as prone to that?  We'll have to see.


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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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OfflineFivel
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Re: Growing fruits from grain "agar" & scubbies! No fruiting chamber, verm, subs, dunks, misting, etc. [Re: Violet]
    #20728118 - 10/20/14 09:27 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You tried any exotics with this??


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OfflineChk
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20728130 - 10/20/14 09:32 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

well if that can help you:
i grinded the rice myself (i have a good semi pro-blender), i grinded only for 60 sec , hence i got a rather rough flour.

Rice brand : Primeal , long brown  organic rice, coming from italia it seems


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InvisibleMrGiraffe

Registered: 04/04/14
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Re: Growing fruits from grain "agar" & scubbies! No fruiting chamber, verm, subs, dunks, misting, etc. [Re: Chk]
    #20729107 - 10/20/14 01:54 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Going to attempt this sometime this week, I was thinking about using some brown rice with some added seaweed since sea weed is supposed to be a great fungal food as far as organic gardening is concerned. 
Just out of curiosity though why 3B?
(3B.  If you added fertilizers, do part of the boiling in the microwave, then complete the boiling 24-30 hours later.  Be sure to wait another 24-30 hours after that before sterilization)


So there's a total of 48 hours from first boil until sterilization with added fertilizer?


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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20759407 - 10/27/14 01:06 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

First sign of grow in one of the jars (i inoculated with ms)
could just be a coincidence, but spores germinated first in the jar where i used strong recycled paper instead of the scrubbie.


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InvisibleMrGiraffe

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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Chk]
    #20759439 - 10/27/14 01:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I made 2 of these this past friday.  I inoculated each one with a wedge of agar from plates that I put previously invitro  ATL7 pins on.  Who knows if it'll work with exotics, they need more FAE, but figured it was worth a try to maybe get some sterile prints.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: MrGiraffe]
    #20759727 - 10/27/14 02:22 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Both of those things are very cool!
Be sure to share some pictures!


Mr. Giraffe; I wouldn't be surprised if you got Galindoi pins from these.  In fact, with agar-pinning strains, I would be very surprised if you didn't.  That said I would be overjoyed beyond belief if you managed to get a print-worthy cap, because I've personally never seen an invitro Galindoi that produced one.  But if there were one way to do it, this would probably be it...


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Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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InvisibleMrGiraffe

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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20759779 - 10/27/14 02:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

You know, I never considered the fact that an invitro pin put to a fresh plate would be more predisposed to pin on agar later.  Makes perfect sense though.  I sure hope so any way.  It wasn't excessively pinning or anything, but being that I was trying to half assed isolate a fruiting culture, as soon as I saw a pin on one of my plates, I had to put it to a new plate lol.  At least that way I got to at least see a tiny atl7 fruit.
Anyone ever bother to use sterile swabs on any of the tiny capped exotics?  Seems like it could be the best way to get guaranteed clean spores.  An invitro fruit swabbed right inside the container with a sterile swab, rather than handling (and maybe crushing) the smaller caps and putting them on foil and exposing them to the outside world.


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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: MrGiraffe]
    #20759886 - 10/27/14 03:01 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I was intimidated by this originally... But I'm definitely going to attempt this this evening. All I really need is a scrubbie.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Pudgy]
    #20759909 - 10/27/14 03:10 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah!  no need to be intimidated.  Although results might not be massive until the grower understands how it works, it's no more difficult than inoculating most any other form of agar (and easier than some)
In fact, once you start using poms for various stages of the grow, transfers with tweezers make everything WAY faster and easier!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20759927 - 10/27/14 03:16 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I've got some really nice clean agar cultures ready to go. I am currently trying MudaFukas Bottle Tek which was an awesome introduction to substrate prep.

However, I'd really love to try this for a lot of reasons.

What was the part about waiting 48-60 hours to sterilize? That was for people using fertilizer right?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Pudgy]
    #20760360 - 10/27/14 05:02 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Yes.  Some, including me, "believe" (have supporting evidence) that there are thermophilic bacteria (such as those involved in composting, and remaining in small amounts after pasteurization) that can uptake fertilizer elements and metabolize them into molecules that mycelium are capable of using in part, which mycelium cannot do with the original fertilizer elements alone.
The waiting period, with a middle heat-treatment for further bio selection, is the means by which we attempt to maximize stimulating that process in cultivation substrates.

Personally I am far more sure than unsure that the right genetics, ones that are capable of producing more potent of fruits than they might would otherwise, definitely raise their potency threshold if their substrate is supplemented and treated in that way.
I, my friends, and many others, have seen my consolidated-fert-grain-only grows become consistently stronger than others even done by me with the same cultures.  I have never heard that anyone has had stronger of this species.  I am confident they out-match everything, except potentially another potent culture on the most ideal of bulk substrate mixes, which could tie at best...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18991111
There's the link for my small (and evidently eternally-under-construction) write-up about it... which I am surprised I didn't include in the post.  I meant to, so I just added it.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (10/27/14 05:13 PM)

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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20760813 - 10/27/14 06:40 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Yes.  Some, including me, "believe" (have supporting evidence) that there are thermophilic bacteria (such as those involved in composting, and remaining in small amounts after pasteurization) that can uptake fertilizer elements and metabolize them into molecules that mycelium are capable of using in part, which mycelium cannot do with the original fertilizer elements alone.
The waiting period, with a middle heat-treatment for further bio selection, is the means by which we attempt to maximize stimulating that process in cultivation substrates.

Personally I am far more sure than unsure that the right genetics, ones that are capable of producing more potent of fruits than they might would otherwise, definitely raise their potency threshold if their substrate is supplemented and treated in that way.
I, my friends, and many others, have seen my consolidated-fert-grain-only grows become consistently stronger than others even done by me with the same cultures.  I have never heard that anyone has had stronger of this species.  I am confident they out-match everything, except potentially another potent culture on the most ideal of bulk substrate mixes, which could tie at best...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18991111
There's the link for my small (and evidently eternally-under-construction) write-up about it... which I am surprised I didn't include in the post.  I meant to, so I just added it.




:eek:

You just eviscerated my head.


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InvisibleMrGiraffe

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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Violet]
    #20760823 - 10/27/14 06:42 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting thread on plant fertilizers.  Instead of using salt based plant fertilizers that need bacteria to make them available for the fungus, why not go straight to fungal preferred foods?  From the section on compost teas in "Teaming with Microbes" to give fungi a head start to make a fungal based tea.  Things such as kelp, rock phosphate dust, pulp of oranges, blueberries, apples, aloe vera extract, soybean meal, powdered malt (duuuuh agar recipes lol), oat meal, oat bran, or powdered baby oatmeal.  Wonder how good some straight powdered baby oatmeal mixed thick would work (probably make a good general agar recipe as well).



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OfflinePudgy
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: MrGiraffe]
    #20760974 - 10/27/14 07:13 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Also, I might be mistaken but I add the agar before the pour, but post boil.


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: Growing fruits from grain [Re: Pudgy]
    #20761080 - 10/27/14 07:33 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Need to be included in this threads updates.

:peace:


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