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morrowasted
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Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos
#20456372 - 08/21/14 09:23 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choronzon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egolessness
Quote:
The writer Aleister Crowley distinguished between two main types of egolessness, for which he used the Sanskrit terms Dhyana (which means "meditation") and Samadhi (which he associated with the Nothing, or in Hebrew Ain). He wrote the following about the relative difficulties of attaining them:
Now we do know this, that if thought is kept single and steady, Dhyana results. We do not know whether an intensification of this is sufficient to cause Samadhi, or whether some other circumstances are required. One is science, the other empiricism.[5]
Despite this, Crowley recommended a complex system of practices from Eastern and Western sources to help people attain Samadhi.
Ego loss is sometimes experienced by those under the influence of psychedelic drugs.[6]
Quote:
Choronzon /ˌkoʊˌroʊnˈzoʊn/ is a demon or devil that originated in writing with the 16th-century occultists Edward Kelley and John Dee within the latter's occult system of Enochian magic. In the 20th century he became an important element within the mystical system of Thelema, founded by Aleister Crowley, where he is the Dweller in the Abyss,[1][2] believed to be the last great obstacle between the adept and enlightenment. Thelemites believe that if he is met with proper preparation, then his function is to destroy the ego, which allows the adept to move beyond the Abyss of occult cosmology.
Many religious folk say that taking psychedelics "opens up the mind to demon possession." Is this thought process influenced by Cabbalistic/Occultist metaphysics and specifically beliefs in demons like Choronzon?
Have you ever had an experience on psychedelics involving ego-loss that also felt like "meeting a demon"? Did it match the description of Choronzon?:
Quote:
"The name of the Dweller in the Abyss is Choronzon, but he is not really an individual. The Abyss is empty of being; it is filled with all possible forms, each equally inane, each therefore evil in the only true sense of the word—that is, meaningless but malignant, in so far as it craves to become real. These forms swirl senselessly into haphazard heaps like dust devils, and each such chance aggregation asserts itself to be an individual and shrieks, "I am I!" though aware all the time that its elements have no true bond; so that the slightest disturbance dissipates the delusion just as a horseman, meeting a dust devil, brings it in showers of sand to the earth."[1]
Are the DMT-induced "self-transforming-machine-elves" described by Strassman Chronozon by another name/description?
Or is it just a chemically-induced neuropathological disorientation?
Is it possible to figure out the answer to these questions?
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shroomiedoo22
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456403 - 08/21/14 09:28 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cool thread! I personally do not have any experience with ego death.. I think it is beyond extraordinary that enlightened minds can experience this just in their practices. I am sorry that I cannot help with an answer to your questions, but I am very intrigued to see what others will say
-------------------- Level II Shroomer Good Vibes
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aZombie
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: shroomiedoo22]
#20456438 - 08/21/14 09:35 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmm.. perhaps strassmans elves were, but they seem more likely to be on a different plane of exiwtence entirely than chronozon, if he does dwell in the abyss. The elves are crwators of something, and therefore live in a world of their own constructs, like humanity, and do not dwell in nothingness.
Also, does this imply that to reach Smadhi, one must pass through the far reaches of the abyss, aka chronozon?
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: aZombie]
#20456472 - 08/21/14 09:42 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am not sure I even understand the concept of the Abyss according to this. Is it simply a perceptual existence that is characterized by randomness in the differentiation of things (and could thus be described as "formless")? It seems different from the idea of "Nothing".
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shroomiedoo22
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456487 - 08/21/14 09:44 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, does this imply that to reach Smadhi, one must pass through the far reaches of the abyss, aka chronozon?
I do believe that is what he is saying. To me it sounds like one's ego must be destroyed to reach Smahdi
-------------------- Level II Shroomer Good Vibes
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aZombie
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: shroomiedoo22]
#20456558 - 08/21/14 09:56 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmm.. i do like your idea of the abyss more. I was referring to the abyss as nothingness but now that i re-read the last quote in your original post I understand your idea more. Perhaps the idea of chronozon is akin to our inner desire to become something. Something from our world of forms that is willing to manipulate any form to become something it desires, perhaps?
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akira_akuma
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456574 - 08/21/14 09:59 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: I am not sure I even understand the concept of the Abyss according to this. Is it simply a perceptual existence that is characterized by randomness in the differentiation of things (and could thus be described as "formless")? It seems different from the idea of "Nothing".
Nothing is PAST the demon, isn't it?
but i like the description of actual evil. a striving for being real when it is not capable of the desired existence, though nonetheless continues to scream for it.
sounds like the multiplicity of the ego to me.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: aZombie]
#20456578 - 08/21/14 10:00 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
aZombie said: Perhaps the idea of chronozon is akin to our inner desire to become something. Something from our world of forms that is willing to manipulate any form to become something it desires, perhaps?
evil; exactly.
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: aZombie]
#20456601 - 08/21/14 10:04 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's really interesting when you start going deep enough to start calling things of that nature. Makes you realize alot of things about ones subconscious desires and fears. The truth lies in madness. Re-integrating that can be a downright herculean task.
There are different ideas for shit like this. Chapel Perilous is an interesting allegory.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: akira_akuma]
#20456614 - 08/21/14 10:07 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
nothing is PAST the demon, isn't it?
Quote:
Thelemites believe that if he is met with proper preparation, then his function is to destroy the ego, which allows the adept to move beyond the Abyss of occult cosmology.
It's not entirely clear to me what is beyond the Abyss. I found this.
http://hermetic.com/norton/abyss2.htm
I like this
Quote:
From the perspective of my own experience, the whole "Abyss" concept is nonsense. There is no gap between the divine and human levels of existence; the transcendent being is already constantly present and active in every person. Since this is the case, there is nothing to "cross" or "jump". The discontinuity, to the extent there is one, is entirely a matter of perspective; the transcendent view is dramatically different from the Self-centered view common to the lower levels. But there is a constant connection and interaction between the divine and the human; they make up a single, undivided system.
Rather than a separation, our normal lack of awareness of the divine aspect of ourselves is a matter of ignorance. Through ignorance, reinforced by a lifetime of conditioning and habit -- and reinforced even more by magickal disciplines -- the transcendent being in a person is deluded into believing it is something that it is not: an individualized "self" or "soul", operating in the mundane world through the medium of a personality mask. In its ignorance, it becomes so thoroughly identified with this self (which is a constructed thing) that it becomes unaware that it is anything other than that self. You might think of it as a weird sort of dharana or deep meditation; a concentration on an object of meditation (the self, in this case) so intent that the difference between the perceiver and the perceived disappears.
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456627 - 08/21/14 10:10 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Seems like after the abyss there's only creation again. Like a rebound effect. You've gotta think of how it all started. Something eventually had to exist.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20456632 - 08/21/14 10:11 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Speaking of which. TAKE MOAR
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20456639 - 08/21/14 10:12 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sounds like this is all just a big cosmological allegory for ego death and re-integration, otherwise called enlightenment.
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456686 - 08/21/14 10:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's a really really hardcore form of it though. Assigning the worst parts of your human nature to an external force. IMHO its sort of the whole problem with the Abrahamic religions. "Devil made me do it" mentality in Cowards and dwarfs.
Takes a strong human to look their fears in the face. Then usually one of 2 things happen. You deal with it and laugh at yourself for being scared of the dark, or you tuck tail and run into the abyss.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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akira_akuma
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456696 - 08/21/14 10:21 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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seems like the same kinda of religious vagaries that are shared between Eastern Religions... you must raise your consciousness yada yada into higher realms, you need a master guide to help bring to higher planes dadadada, in some religions, you need to focus on the sound of the higher planes (a vague sound "without guidance") and then with said "guidance" and following of the sound of the higher planes, one reaches the abyss or "void" in which one must be able to be guided through (again)
the only difference here, is the lack of the guide. the dependence on one's self.
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: akira_akuma]
#20456740 - 08/21/14 10:27 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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If all these religions have the same process underlying their symbolism, might there be some grain of truth to what is being said? Sort of like the telephone game...
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Konyap
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20456775 - 08/21/14 10:34 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure someone enlightened wouldn't take mind altering substances
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akira_akuma
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: morrowasted]
#20457094 - 08/21/14 11:39 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: If all these religions have the same process underlying their symbolism, might there be some grain of truth to what is being said? Sort of like the telephone game...
that's what i've thought as well. interesting thought.
all these things seem to come from oral traditions, question is, where do these traditions come from? some people think aliens... and to that... one must think... whatever we learned... why was it so important? and what has changed since it's been learned? what was it exactly, then, that we realized or were taught?
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Konyap]
#20457851 - 08/22/14 05:55 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Illyabo said: I'm pretty sure someone enlightened wouldn't take mind altering substances
Why would you think this? If anything it'd be the other way around.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Kaktos
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20457910 - 08/22/14 06:34 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I had my ordeal with Choronzon four years ago. What a nightmare that was!
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Kaktos]
#20457921 - 08/22/14 06:40 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yea but nightmares can be really really memorable and cool. Gotta learn to laugh at that shit.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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lavod
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20457978 - 08/22/14 07:10 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ego death feels like the birth experience. I would separate ego death from the concept ov crossing the abyss however. The abyss is the domain wherein 0=2 is false. By transcendence, 0=2 is true. Crowley said something to the effect ov "Below the abyss contradiction is division. Above it, contradiction is unity.". "Crossing the abyss" illumes the arena ov reception wherein the perceived was previously the self contained light. The perceived is not one thing in itself, but a fragment ov the shattered mirror ov all things.
Edited by lavod (08/22/14 10:46 AM)
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TheGreenArrow
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: lavod]
#20458016 - 08/22/14 07:34 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wow what an insightful way to put that.
-------------------- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, conn a ship, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve an equation, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein Saint RedBow of the Shroomey Loomey-Patron Saint of Sandbaggin Sumbitchs
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Moonshoe
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20458136 - 08/22/14 08:35 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmm.
I think the only meaningful way to approach the question is to meditate deeply for 1-2 hours each day for a few months, then smoke DMT while in meditative Samadhi.
-------------------- Everything I post is fiction.
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Moonshoe]
#20458492 - 08/22/14 10:15 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol
sounds like an arbitrary approach to me
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Epiglottis
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos *DELETED* [Re: morrowasted]
#20458514 - 08/22/14 10:19 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EpiglottisReason for deletion: .
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Epiglottis]
#20458609 - 08/22/14 10:39 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not sure I follow you. To me, dissociation is separation of mind and body, which is something utterly different from ego-loss. There is one class of drugs that produces separation of mind and body, and one class of drugs that produces ego-loss. The ego-loss drugs work, according to my limited understanding of pharmacology, by interfering with the action of serotonin neurons in the hippocampus.
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Epiglottis
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos *DELETED* [Re: morrowasted]
#20458696 - 08/22/14 10:59 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EpiglottisReason for deletion: .
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Epiglottis]
#20458861 - 08/22/14 11:34 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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A) You can't prove that.
B) It could just as easily be the other way around.
C) Even if they are bound together, the perception of their connection can be momentarily severed, and this is provable via experience.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: TheGreenArrow]
#20458874 - 08/22/14 11:38 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: Yea but nightmares can be really really memorable and cool. Gotta learn to laugh at that shit.
fucking A. i learned to love nightmares, though during my teens they were... beyond fucked so... learn to laugh
Quote:
TheGreenArrow said: Wow what an insightful way to put that.
indeed. it's an exatomatic way he put it, i completely agree.
when you get to "the source" things become contradiction. INDEED. love it. good thread. awesome thread!
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Epiglottis
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos *DELETED* [Re: morrowasted]
#20458885 - 08/22/14 11:42 AM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Post deleted by EpiglottisReason for deletion: .
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Epiglottis]
#20459022 - 08/22/14 12:15 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you, and enjoy your scrambled circuits. We'll still be here when you manage to unscramble them and re-connect the dots.
It's almost time to go commune with my current favorite entity, my niece. It's her second birthday.
Children have a way of forcing you back into the present moment. ―Lorna Luft
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Kaktos
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: lavod]
#20460114 - 08/22/14 03:20 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Unless your Universe is perfect—and perfection includes the idea of balance—how can you come even to Atmadarshana? Hindus may maintain that Atmadarshana, or at any rate Shivadarshana, is the equivalent of crossing the Abyss. Beware of any such conclusions! The Trances are simply isolated experiences, sharply cut off from normal thought-life. To cross the Abyss is a permanent and fundamental revolution in the whole of one's being."
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millzy
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Kaktos] 1
#20460471 - 08/22/14 04:17 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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correct me if i'm wrong on my etymology here, but the term "demon" is derived from the greek word "daemon", which simply means "spirit". the negative connotation seems to have been added somewhere along the way by the catholics, most likely during the middle ages when the church needed to scare the hell out of everyone in order to maintain their hegemony.
but there's also talk of "the choir of angels" in the bible. awhile back, i watched a captivating lecture from a rosicrucian about rosicrucianism, which for those who don't know is a sect of esoteric, protestant christianity. he went a little in depth about the choir of angels and its different classes of spiritual entitites. most notably are the "luciferic" beings -- beings of light --- and the "michaelic" beings. "michael" translates to "he who is as god", and, according to the speaker, michaelic beings are the highest class of spiritual beings humanity can encounter. they're like god's lawyers for us.
to tie this into crowley, the michaelic class of entities seems to neatly coincide with crowley's "holy guardian angel". to tie this into my own personal experiences, more than a few times have i felt like i've encountered an "other", and i think the luceferic and michaelic labels seem to fit best with what i get. i've never gotten outright malevolence. at worst i've just gotten strange, alien for lack of a better term. those types mostly just wanna play around (and a few times they've been really funny!). but at best it's like i'm having a conversation with my highest self, who only has my best interests in mind and never deceives me. even if it's over things i need to improve on, the message is always delivered with perfect love.
there's also another interesting difference between the luceferic and michaelic beings i've encountered: i always seem to perceive the luciferic beings in some capacity, usually with them being just right in my face. conversely, the michaelic ones always seem to be behind me, out of view, but unmistakably there.
now whether any of this stuff is "real" in an absolute sense, i don't know. but this seems to be something that people have been talking about for a long time, going back to the greeks, perhaps even further.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: millzy]
#20460570 - 08/22/14 04:33 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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wreckkk
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morrowasted
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Re: Choronzon :. The Destroyer of Egos [Re: Konyap]
#20462066 - 08/22/14 09:18 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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good stuff millzy
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