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 BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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 Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6458312 - 01/14/07 10:18 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
You are resting on the assumption that our Universe is infinitely large. You can't know that, just as I can't know that it's not.
All current scientific understanding of our Universe says that it is finitet in size.
Even if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.
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 new2grow
Dust
 
Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 947
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Last seen: 8 months, 18 days
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honestly i dont give a shit anymore. Im too concerned with getting some action this weekend, and no longer will i give a damn about our place here, or how large or small all this is.
If is infinate, great thats awesome, and would make more sense to me. Why would it stop, nothing wants to stop being cool, right?
ifs its finate, well thats alright too. It is a small world then, but much larger than i would ever need.
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"You think that was cheesey? Well this is where it gets Gouda."
"And He said, 'I give this herb as your meat."
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Where did I say that you could know the future? Do you exist outside of time?
Not knowing the future does not discredit any notion of a pre-determined future.
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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6459103 - 01/14/07 02:24 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I was trying to get across is the fact that the Universe itself can not know its own future... according to the Quantum Theory.
It is very important to appreciate the difference between a Necessarily Connected Universe, which ours is, and a Deterministic Universe which requires knowledge of the 'initial conditions' from which things, being necessarily connected, can then be determined.
We exist in a finite and 'Necessarily Connected' Universe (due to the Properties of Space as a continuously connected wave medium), whereas Space itself must be Infinite (One thing existing is necessarily Infinite and Eternal). Thus our finite universe continually has waves flowing into it that have come from Infinity, and can never be pre-determined (an infinite system cannot be predetermined).
A question : Do you believe in morality? If so, how can you believe in morality and not free-will? Their is a huge flaw in this kind of logic.
Edited by BuddahKillah (01/14/07 02:35 PM)
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CerebralFlower
whats left?
Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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I would change it to "free will is a RARE thing"
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God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire
Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play
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Jackenobi
Hermes
Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 1,355
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Phluck]
#6460513 - 01/14/07 08:58 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phluck said:
At any given time, you have millions of options. You could stand up right now, run around the room three times, while yodeling. Or maybe you could strangle yourself with the mouse cord. Or you could try eating a diskette.
Will you make these choices? Probably not.
When you're faced with an imminant decision, "do you want to go to the party or not?", you'll make a choice there based on how you feel about parties, how you feel about the people at the party, and how you feel at the moment. If we could press a rewind button on life, go back in time, and repeat that moment with every minute variable identical, would your decision ever vary? If it would, why?
my free will manifests itself in triviality, perhaps that is how it is free.
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read books
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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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Of course, we only have "limited free-will". We can't defy gravity and take off flying any time we feel like it, but within the constraints of necessary connection there are still many possible futures. We can choose to read this, or we can decide to stop reading it. Both are possible futures that obey the laws of physics and the necessary connections between things.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6461314 - 01/15/07 05:25 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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I love how arrogant we humans are 
To think that the future isn't set, that we have control over how it plays out, is certainly arrogant. If time is a dimension the past and future have to be set*, and it is only to a being caught in time that the future appears as unset.
*all of time would be set, from any perspective outside of time
--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6461389 - 01/15/07 06:19 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are you trying to say I'm arrogant because of my belief in free will?
I think thats a pretty arrogant statement itself.
1. How can an infinite system be pre-determined?
2. Do you believe in morality?
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Are you trying to say I'm arrogant because of my belief in free will?
Did I reply to you? I said "we humans".
1. How can an infinite system be pre-determined?
You still need to show me some proof that the Universe is infinite in any way.
2. Do you believe in morality?
Humans invented morality, in that sense yes I believe in it.
--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6462861 - 01/15/07 03:13 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Did I reply to you? I said "we humans".
Nice dodge. You implied that anyone who believes in free will is arrogant. Since I believe in free will you are implying that I am arrogant.
You still need to show me some proof that the Universe is infinite in any way.
For the third time :
Even if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.
Humans invented morality, in that sense yes I believe in it.
Morality can not exist if the Universe is pre-determined.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Nice dodge. You implied that anyone who believes in free will is arrogant. Since I believe in free will you are implying that I am arrogant.
What part of "we" didn't you understand? I include myself in "we"
ven if we live in a finite and "Necessity Connected" Universe it still contained within an infinite space. It has waves flowing into that come from infinity and they can never be pre-determined. This explains the uncertainty of the Quantum Theory. We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know the future motion and position of the particle.
What are these "waves" you speak of? What are they made out of?
Do you even understand quantum theory?
We can certainly know either the position or velocity of a particle. The Uncertainty Principle only says that we cannot know both to a high degree simultaneously.
--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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BuddahKillah
U WANTFITE!?!?!?!?!?!
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1,724
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6463220 - 01/15/07 04:39 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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What part of "we" didn't you understand? I include myself in "we"
So you do believe in free will then?
What are these "waves" you speak of? What are they made out of?
Do you even understand quantum theory?
We can certainly know either the position or velocity of a particle. The Uncertainty Principle only says that we cannot know both to a high degree simultaneously.
We can never know where each successive In-Wave will meet at its Wave-Center, so we can never exactly know both the future motion (momentum) and position of the ‘Particle’
Read that very carefully.
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Maitereya
bohemian
Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 120
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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man this shit doesnt matter, be who you are and do what you want.
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6463646 - 01/15/07 06:31 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok, here's the deal: If you put me in a certain point in time, knowing what I knew at the time, and feeling what I felt at the time, I would probably make the same decision all over again. So what? I chose to do what I felt like at the time. A choice determined by my circumstances is still a choice. The only way it wouldn't be a choice would be if someone coerced me into doing it. The fact that we make a certain choice under certain circumstances doesn't make it any less a choice. Again, free will is a function of determinism.
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Edited by Silversoul (01/16/07 09:58 AM)
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 Annom
※※※※※※
Registered: 12/22/02
Posts: 6,264
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 minute, 3 seconds
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
#6464940 - 01/16/07 04:56 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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That is a decent definition of free will and coherent with determinism, but this definition doesn't correspond with the free will feeling (most) people have. This definition gives computers free will. A computer makes a choice determined by its (internal or external)input, this choice is always the same for the same input.
Humans are more complex and have more input, but with your definition of free will, you have to agree that computers do have free will, don't you?
That would make free will so general and misleading that we can better call it "pre-determined choice" or something like that.
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Annom]
#6465531 - 01/16/07 10:07 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, I personally also happen to think there is a certain amount of indeterminism in the universe, as seen in quantum physics. So there is a certain amount of randomness to our circumstances and how we react to it. In fact, isn't evolution based on creating creating order out of randomness(as in random mutations)? I think free will works in a similar way. We're presented with a myriad of choices, and our brain, influenced by our circumstances, narrows those choices down.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
#6465570 - 01/16/07 10:17 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quantum mechanics does NOT say that anything is truly random...that is one interpretation, but it isn't what the science itself indicates.
Quantum theory states simply that you can't know various properties of a particle simultaneously.
--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: trendal]
#6465576 - 01/16/07 10:19 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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I realize that, but I'm going to take a leap of faith here and go with the Copenhagen interpretation.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 18,897
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free will is bullshit. [Re: Silversoul]
#6465590 - 01/16/07 10:21 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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As long as you realize that it's only an interpretation...not theory in any sense of the word. 
--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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