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Offlinemezzy jeb
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No Luv for the Shmuvbox?
    #20241321 - 07/08/14 09:29 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Hey all, I recently stumbled upon an old thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11353633

Obviously some stuff seems outdated but the shmuvbox seems like a reaalllly sweet alternative to an SAB and laminar flow hood.

So why don't I hear people talking about/ using it?

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: mezzy jeb]
    #20241332 - 07/08/14 09:36 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mezzy jeb said:
Obviously some stuff seems outdated but the shmuvbox seems like a reaalllly sweet alternative to an SAB and laminar flow hood.



Not for me.....I'll stick with still air.

Something about a $40 walmart special hepa filter raining down on my work with dirty turbulent air just doesn't sit right with me.

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Offlinemezzy jeb
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20243175 - 07/08/14 04:40 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

You think it's too cheap and from Walmart, and that it blows dirty air, that's your problem with it. So imagine it was set up with a nice HEPA. Just like a flow hood but instead of in a wood case it's into a bag.

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Invisiblethelanzii

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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: mezzy jeb]
    #20243229 - 07/08/14 04:49 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

a few tcs use it here.  I am quite intrigued by it, but have yet to give it a shot

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InvisibleGhatti
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: thelanzii]
    #20243272 - 07/08/14 05:00 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

There's no actual reason it won't work as long as it is sealed properly and you obtain a positive pressure, turbulent air won't make much difference unless you work right near the holes.

Or........if you accidently buy a hepa "type" filter. Or........an actual hepa filter that doesn't filter 99.7% down to .03.

Please do read your fine print

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: Ghatti]
    #20243342 - 07/08/14 05:12 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

A proper flowhood that is setup in a small room will do the trick.

People think that when they buy a massive flowhood that they can culture in their living rooms or other larger spaces and end up pulling half their neighbourhoods mold spore populous into their jars and then complain.

A flowhood is best used in a small enclosure and left running for at least 20 minutes to filter the air prior to any culturing work.

Still air boxes are awesome, I've used for years with great results but man does it get fucking cramped!


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Offlinemezzy jeb
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: HybridprX]
    #20243377 - 07/08/14 05:18 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HybridprX said:
A proper flowhood that is setup in a small room will do the trick.

People think that when they buy a massive flowhood that they can culture in their living rooms or other larger spaces and end up pulling half their neighbourhoods mold spore populous into their jars and then complain.

A flowhood is best used in a small enclosure and left running for at least 20 minutes to filter the air prior to any culturing work.

Still air boxes are awesome, I've used for years with great results but man does it get fucking cramped!





All true man. But for those not carpentry inclined, taping a bag to a HEPA filter +blower vs building a box around it might seem a lot easier. Does to me. I think I'll stick with a SAB for now but I just stumbled upon the shmuvbox and wondered why I hadn't heard of it earlier

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InvisibleGhatti
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: mezzy jeb]
    #20243435 - 07/08/14 05:30 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Because its cheap and we figure cheap stuff doesn't work well.  And usually its true, however this has been proven effective.

I had a thread a while back asking basically could work be done with a store bought hepa filter and a positive pressure environment and got shot down from all sides. I had forgotten about this little contraption though. I don't like the bag idea but it does work for proof of concept

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Invisibletoxetel
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: thelanzii]
    #20247114 - 07/09/14 10:47 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

It's true that some Shroomery members have posted successes with them, but it's a very far cry from it being "proven effective." It's just a handful of people who have posted their experience, and most of it is from a long time ago. There is certainly no reason to think it's more effective than a still-air box.

I personally have no experience with a shmuvbox, but I don't think I'll be trying anytime soon. Here are my concerns:

The biggest concern with the cheap Wal-Mart air purifiers is that none of them (that I've seen, anyway) are actual HEPA filters. They're all labeled "HEPA-type" or "99% HEPA" which doesn't really mean anything. There's usually even more marketing bullshit like "traps up to 99% of particles," which also means nothing -- "up to 99%" could mean 0%, and "particles" vary widely in size.

So there's no way to know from the packaging or documentation whether their filtration is good enough to sterilize air.

Their build quality is also typically pretty lousy -- worse now than it was when the shmuvbox concept was first started, and getting worse all the time -- so unfiltered air can usually make it around the filter element.

But, put all that aside, and assume that somehow the shmuvbox was successfully making a pressurized bag full of sterile air.

You still can't sterilize the stuff you bring into it. The outsides of your jars and plates, your scalpel handle, your syringe body, your gloves, your sleeves, and so on are all not sterile. Wiping it all down with alcohol helps, but doesn't eliminate the problem. The reason it's not a problem with a still-air box is that the air inside the box isn't moving, so it won't blow those contaminants into your work. With a laminar flow hood, the laminar nature of the airflow means that you can carefully hold all the parts and pieces such that you never allow the air to blow contaminants into your work (which is a critical skill for working with flow hoods). With a shmuvbox, you have moving air but it's turbulent and blowing every which-way, so you can't do anything about blowing contaminants.

Some people have had success with shmuvboxes, but some people also have had success working in open air or with Bunsen burners. There's still no way I'd recommend open air or Bunsen burners to anybody over a still-air box.

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Offlinemezzy jeb
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: toxetel]
    #20251790 - 07/10/14 07:14 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

toxetel, more than half your post addressed shitty walmart quality, just as pussyfart's did. i was wondering what any design flaws were. obviously you can use the same concept with a quality hepa filter. your last couple paragraphs were useful tho. very good points for why the concept doesn't work. thank you

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: mezzy jeb]
    #20251816 - 07/10/14 07:28 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mezzy jeb said:
obviously you can use the same concept with a quality hepa filter.



But if you had a high quality hepa filter(and a blower to go with it), what would be stopping you from finishing the LFH build and doing it the right way?

Edited by PussyFart (07/10/14 08:07 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: PussyFart]
    #20251863 - 07/10/14 07:51 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

No Luv for the Shmuvbox?




None whatsoever.

It's slightly worse than open air, and hundreds of times worse than a still air box, while thousands of times worse than a flow hood.

You don't want massive quantities of air circulating in an enclosed space while you're doing culture work, especially dirty air which is what you get from those cheap 'hepa' filters.  I have five of them getting shit on by rats in my barn.  They're useless unless you just want to cut down on the amount of dust in your house.
RR


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Invisibletoxetel
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: mezzy jeb]
    #20252504 - 07/10/14 11:03 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mezzy jeb said:
toxetel, more than half your post addressed shitty walmart quality, just as pussyfart's did.




Hmm... I don't think so. Only the fifth paragraph of my post had anything to do with quality. The "HEPA-type" or "99% HEPA" issue is not one of poor quality; it's an issue of lack of specifications.

Another thing I'll add -- I went back and looked at eatyualive's original thread about the shmuvbox. He recommends using a PF jar as a master jar for grain-to-grain. His pictures show him using a fork (which he never mentions sterilizing) to scrape the contam-ridden vermiculite off the top of a PF cake, and then using the same fork to scrape pieces off the colonized cake, over the non-sterile top part of the PF jar, and into the recipient grain. In between, he exposes the cake to non-sterile open air.

Also, he mentions in the thread that he usually does multispore inoculation in open air.

All this makes me think that either he's got some super-contam-resistant strain he's working with (or maybe it's Pleurotus and not cubensis), or he's lucky enough to have a very low spore load in his work space. Either way, it seems unlikely that the average cubensis cultivator can expect similar results; in my 100-year-old drafty house, his process would very reliably grow trichoderma.

Reminds me of Ron Jeremy selling penis enlargement pumps... It's not like the pump is what made his penis that size.

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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: toxetel]
    #20252775 - 07/10/14 11:53 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

I've been using it for years now with much success. I know the theory doesn't make sense, but it works.

RR, you should pour yourself a few sleeves in one before you just write it off.


--------------------
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i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #20281899 - 07/16/14 04:03 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

and...it works like a charm. ive been using this thing more than 11 years with great success. probabilities or not, it works if you implore clean technique.

Here is the original shmuvbox thread from 2003. when i first saw this, i tried it and had good success. not as good as i have now, but pretty darn good for the price.

http://www.thenook.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=2383


for grain to grain transfer the contam rate is almost nothing. i get more contams overcooking my grain by accident than actually doing the g2g's.


Quote:

toxetel said:
Quote:

mezzy jeb said:
toxetel, more than half your post addressed shitty walmart quality, just as pussyfart's did.




Hmm... I don't think so. Only the fifth paragraph of my post had anything to do with quality. The "HEPA-type" or "99% HEPA" issue is not one of poor quality; it's an issue of lack of specifications.

Another thing I'll add -- I went back and looked at eatyualive's original thread about the shmuvbox. He recommends using a PF jar as a master jar for grain-to-grain. His pictures show him using a fork (which he never mentions sterilizing) to scrape the contam-ridden vermiculite off the top of a PF cake, and then using the same fork to scrape pieces off the colonized cake, over the non-sterile top part of the PF jar, and into the recipient grain. In between, he exposes the cake to non-sterile open air.

Also, he mentions in the thread that he usually does multispore inoculation in open air.

All this makes me think that either he's got some super-contam-resistant strain he's working with (or maybe it's Pleurotus and not cubensis), or he's lucky enough to have a very low spore load in his work space. Either way, it seems unlikely that the average cubensis cultivator can expect similar results; in my 100-year-old drafty house, his process would very reliably grow trichoderma.

Reminds me of Ron Jeremy selling penis enlargement pumps... It's not like the pump is what made his penis that size.





Actually, originally people kept asking me about cloning and what I use. so I actually posted that to show the cloning method.

I have successfully attempted all of the following numerous times in the shmuvbox:

1)agar wedge transfer from clone into quart master jars
2)poured agar plates
3)taken spore prints(thousands)
4)g2g from pf jar to wbs quarts using a fork scrape method
5)g2g master wbs quarts to wbs quarts
6)9er tek cloning cutting open a specimen from inner stem tissue and transferring it using a scalpal into a 1/2 pint pf jar with an oster blender blade assembly and blending the tissue. sucking up the distilled water/stem tissue solution into sterile syringes. storing these same syringes in the fridge for 7 years now with successful growth and fruiting.
7) stem tissue transfer to agar plate
8) made spore syringes by using a sterile scalpal, exacto blade or spore loop to then scrape into a wide mouth 1/2 pint jar that has a rubber port and filter port in the lid. this also had some magnetic stir bars in it, the jar is then placed onto a stir plate and the spores are swirled around for a while. then clean syringes are used to suck up spore solution into the jar.
8) tv casualty's from mycotopias slurry in a hurry tek Slurry In a Hurry Tek
haha you can actually see my shmuvbox in the background.

at first my contam rate was a little higher but after i got my clean tek down and used to the setup, its almost nothing now. i posted some math in the thread. doing 20 quart jars a week for 5 years. very minimal contam ratio. and im just using a standard room size hepa unit that has a 3 speed setting with ionizer built in. i have not changed the current filter on the unit im using in about 5 years. and ive had very few contams inside doing clean work. Also, I implore clean technique prior to doing any work inside it. I sterilize everything. the fork i just wipe with alcohol if its a g2g. Now, if im doing clone work, i will sterilize the utensils with a bernzo torch inside the work bag. Just be careful not to leave the gas running on thbenzo torch prior to lighting it. You dont' want the bag to blow up if its filled with butane. Also when the hepa is on it should push it out of the bag. I just turn the button on then light the torch real quick, sterilize, then turn off immediately.


one more thing, its not any super resistant strain im using. ive used many cubensis strains, pans and oysters. makes no difference. in fact, i have been using this shmuvbox since around 2003ish for all of the work i do in mycology. i have thread after thread of examples of different strains using this same method. if you want to see it, let me know and i can link you to i dont know 30. prior to that, i did have a laminar flowhood and i still have a SAB. Which one do I prefer? well you know the answer to that.

maybe it is as simple as i have my clean tek down to a T. Granted maybe your 100 year old house has a ton of pet dander and you need to dedicate an area for clean work and take a little time to turn off the ac prior to work, stopping your airflow in the work area, cleaning a table and using some bleach wipes, rubbing alcohol, oust, ect,ect ect. Everything is sterilized prior to bringing it into the bag/shmuvbox work area. if you take your hands out, clean them thoroughly before putting them back in. also, i will spray lysol directly into the bag and let the air push it around a little while before i begin working in the bag. so im anally wiping down all surfaces of the hepa unit inside and out.


the reason you see a pf jar in that clone tek is that i can take a quick clone, grow out that entire pf jar in a few days if i use half a syringe per 1/2 pint and then im transferring that to 10 quarts in a weeks time or less. and the smaller jars store well in the fridge for later use. hey not everyone can afford expensive, lab quality equipment, and it isn't necessary for the home cultivator.

and i've always done multispore inoculation open air. that doesn't mean im not thoroughly cleaning everything within a 10 foot work area around the area im doing the inoculation. i also wear a mask and take a shower prior to doing any of the clean work im describing.

Hell the other day i was about to spawn some bulk subs. i had everything setup and ready to go, i had taken a shower and done all the setup. well morning turd number 3 wanted to come out so i had to wait. go let the kids swim at the pool. i then began my day again by showering and getting clean again prior to starting my bulk spawn. and i did that open air as well. but i turn the ac off about 30 minutes prior to doing any work. and if you read a post above where someone stated they let the flowhood run 20 minutes prior to doing any work. i do the same thing in this shmuv. and i also spray lysol in the bag. i also even wipe down all my quart jars outsides with rubbing alcohol prior to doing any work. and when i say these things, im not combining work. i will do g2g in one bag. if im doing a clone that same day, i get a fresh bag, do the clone and start the cleaning process all over again. im not piling 10 different work loads into one bag. i do it ritualistically. clone, g2g, spore prints ect.


over the years ive shown several folks this in real life and how to do it correctly. those several people i showed use this thing religiously as i do. there is only so much detail you can provide by typing on the internet. its too bad because id love to show you in person how great this thing works. i love it so much because it works well for me, has simplified things for me and it doesn't take up any space at all. i store it in the original box, on the shelf with a closed door.
or you could try it out yourself.

and at the same time, if the sab works great for you, why fix it if its not broken? ive been around the block and back. ive tried just about anything ive read all over the internet and any book about mycology i can get my hands on that is within reach. ie home cultivator not commercial grade lab equipment and facilities.


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Edited by eatyualive (07/16/14 08:25 PM)

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Invisibletoxetel
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: eatyualive]
    #20285694 - 07/17/14 10:25 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for chiming in, eatyualive!

Huh, didn't know about that thread on The Nook. Looks like the site's down for now, so I'll have to wait until later to read it.

I meant no criticism about your using a PF jar as a G2G master. I only meant it to be an example of evidence that you must grow in a place with very low contaminant load (which it sounds like you work hard to maintain). The dry verm layer and the top half-inch of glass in a PF jar are nonsterile, but somehow they don't contaminate your recipient jars. If I used that technique, even in front of a flow hood, I'd grow trich.

I think it's awesome that the shmuvbox works so well for you and those you've trained, and I totally believe what you're saying. I just can't help but think it wouldn't work in many other cultivators' homes, including mine. That might be part of why only a small handful of board members have posted about successful grows using shmuvboxes. No amount of lysol spray, isopropyl alcohol, and bleach can sterilize a nonsterile object.

A still-air box works even if the surrounding space is dirty, as long as you can achieve still air. But, your point is well-taken. I could try the shmuvbox myself, instead of just reasoning through it and dismissing it. Perhaps I will one day.

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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: toxetel]
    #20287066 - 07/17/14 03:57 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

toxetel said:
That might be part of why only a small handful of board members have posted about successful grows using shmuvboxes. No amount of lysol spray, isopropyl alcohol, and bleach can sterilize a nonsterile object.




I think it's more that only a handful have actually tried it. I can't find anybody posting about how it sucks anywhere.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: toxetel]
    #20287407 - 07/17/14 05:22 PM (9 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

toxetel said:
Thanks for chiming in, eatyualive!

Huh, didn't know about that thread on The Nook. Looks like the site's down for now, so I'll have to wait until later to read it.

I meant no criticism about your using a PF jar as a G2G master. I only meant it to be an example of evidence that you must grow in a place with very low contaminant load (which it sounds like you work hard to maintain). The dry verm layer and the top half-inch of glass in a PF jar are nonsterile, but somehow they don't contaminate your recipient jars. If I used that technique, even in front of a flow hood, I'd grow trich.

I think it's awesome that the shmuvbox works so well for you and those you've trained, and I totally believe what you're saying. I just can't help but think it wouldn't work in many other cultivators' homes, including mine. That might be part of why only a small handful of board members have posted about successful grows using shmuvboxes. No amount of lysol spray, isopropyl alcohol, and bleach can sterilize a nonsterile object.

A still-air box works even if the surrounding space is dirty, as long as you can achieve still air. But, your point is well-taken. I could try the shmuvbox myself, instead of just reasoning through it and dismissing it. Perhaps I will one day.




i think you have to signup to see the good boards.

i've taken no offense to anything you have said here. as far as the pf jar, it was just a thread to show someone how i clone real fast using pf jars. it just happened to be in the shmuvbox at that instance, that i was illustrating the cloning method and wanted to mention how awesome it was so i did. so i did both in the same thread to kill two birds with one stone. its always worth trying everything at least once. hell, even when i fail im stubborn and try things several times.

the shmuv works as well. its great. the only thing i dislike about my SAB is that it is bulky and takes up half my closet. lol. and even half a table. depends on your environment. when you have a 1 bedroom apartment, a flowhood or SAB is just too big for 900 sf.

this is how we learn and evolve. by trying new things. when they work, hell its good to spread the love. if everyone is close minded and not experimenting, we won't evolve. ive built some extreme automated setups, room size, clean work with agar plates/flowhoods and i find it much easier and just as effective to use cheap supplies. like for instance, a 30$ hepa and some 7$ 66 quart tubs at costco. a 50$ bag of basically lawn cuttings pelletized, and a 90 brick coir box that cost 1 dollar per brick which is a hell of a deal. that seriously has lasted more than 5 years worth of cubensis growing. the bag of the grass pellets is still 1/3 full. and there is still 80% of the coir bricks available. thats alot more years worth of growing for a minimal price and its simple easy and stores easy.

hell ive given away 80% of the supplies i used to have because it isn't necessary anymore.

but in that aspect i also agree with you. if it isn't broken, why fix it? if i were in your shoes, id keep using the SAB if its working perfectly why ruin a good thing.

i had this outbreak of bad birdseed at the time of that shmuvbox thread at the nook. i thought it was my flowhoood filter, possibly an old clone. but i tried SAB and even a shmuv. Well, after a rough 40lb bag of wbs turning into green mold i finally figured it out. i even thought i was over cooking my grain method i did the same way for 5 years prior to that with no issues.  the regular seed i was getting somehow turned to crap since that year and i had to switch brands then. the seed would get meal bugs after a week and everything turned to green. it wasn't any filter, clone, just crappy seed. switching seed solved the issue. i initially thought it was a dirty filter, but then i tried that shmuvbox and it worked so i stuck with it ever since.


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Edited by eatyualive (07/17/14 05:32 PM)

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Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: eatyualive]
    #20300207 - 07/20/14 10:28 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)


injecting pf jars open air


1) turn off ac 30 mins prior to inoculation.
2)wipe your area down with rubbing alc, i usually fill a spray bottle with alco and spray all over the table and air, then wipe down table with a clean paper towel.
3)spray lysol in the air.
4)wear a mask.
5)loosen your foil (so that later you can lift and inoculate then put the foil back on real fast)
6)douse the air with lysol again right before you inoculate. if your doing this in batches for instance: 5 different spore syringes or clone syringes,then prior to doing the new syringe you would spray lysol in the air again.
7) anytime you touch anything wipe your hands down up to your forearms with rubbing alc.

the key is have minimal air time for your syringe between jar inoculations. also make sure not to touch the outside of the jar with the syringe tip. when trying to work quickly this can happen and with time and practice your skills will improve.
there you have it, easy inoculation in open air. i never get contams in pf jars.





also, the pf jars that were prepared were done a little dry because im injecting each syringe per 3 jars. so the water im injecting into each jar is going to add to the moisture content quite a bit.





recipe for 24 1/2 pint jars



12 cups fine verm(i prefer and would  use coarse grade but it isn't available in the area)
6 cups brwon rice flour
5 cups water instead of 6

the 5 cups of water lowers the moisture content enough to account for clone injections.

often ill use one syringe injected per pf jar if i want speed. but generally ill do about 3-4 pf jars per clone syringe or multispore syringe. reason is, im using these as msters to transfer into grain jars. and its easy enough to make pf jars.

nothing against injecting directly into wbs jars but i like the size of the pf jars and they hold up well in the fridge for a year.




--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


:flame::chief:JOIN THE POW WOW:chief::flame:

Edited by eatyualive (07/20/14 10:51 AM)

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InvisibleGhatti
Totally not a Federal Agent
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Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 1,733
Re: No Luv for the Shmuvbox? [Re: eatyualive]
    #20300245 - 07/20/14 10:34 AM (9 years, 8 months ago)

You talk in the above post or two about a batch of bad birdseed? How does this even happen if you're pressure cooking?

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