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Offlineorizon
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COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID
    #1990321 - 10/08/03 04:15 PM (11 years, 26 days ago)

Hi...I am a local picker in florida and have a quick question about ID'ing Copes-Pan cyans-Blue Meanies. On my first encounter with these guys, I picked them and ate a dose and had the smoothest most visual trip ever. They grow out of that tall grass 1-2 month old dung piles and are quite smaller than Cubes. However There are many posts providing pics of Panaeolus antillarum and other non-active Panaeolus species that grow in florida cow fields which are not active but look almost the same as the ones I pic. If I saw those pictures in the field I would have just picked them and passed them off for Copes. (I dont scrutinize every shroom) I currently have like 40 grams of "supposed Copes" in jars and assume they are all active Pan Cyan species. So my main question is: How do I distinguish between Copes and those other non-active panaeolus species that apparently grow right beside the good ones? Please respond

Thanks, Orizon


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1990435 - 10/08/03 04:54 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Copes should always bruise blue, the inactive pans won't.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1990682 - 10/08/03 06:34 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

The blueing is definatly the easiest way to tell them apart, although I've noticed it usually takes quite a while and dosn't stand out quite as much as I expected. You'll notice the bluing most where the stem has been pinched or broken, it also can appear quite black.
Another thing, is the inactive pan sphincterus (sp?) has a reddish stem, and usually a darker cap than the active pans.


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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1990875 - 10/08/03 07:43 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

(I dont scrutinize every shroom)




Well you really should.
You should check every single mushroom for blue, every single one.

Keep shroomin,
GG


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Offlineorizon
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1990889 - 10/08/03 07:47 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Ok that helps alot....does the texture of the cap differ at all? scaly verses smooth. Im pickin these guys in fields at night so it will be hard to distinguish them. Are the gills any different? Thank god the look-alikes are not toxic... Phew Any aditional help is apprecieated.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1991102 - 10/08/03 09:15 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

The sphincters tend to have kind of toothed edges around the cap, it's really not too noticable though. I usually just pick everything, and then identify once I get home.


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Offlineorizon
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #1992393 - 10/09/03 07:17 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Im still confused..I picked some Pans tonight and the caps and stems look exactly as they do in various Cope picks. The stems are off white in general (not brown or red) and the smaller ones have turned black at the botton but some of the bigger ones have not. But they Look exactly the same!!! The caps are white to tan (a little crackled on the big ones) and sometimes darker on the edges. Since the shrooms in question are non-active-not toxic Im just gonna take a small dose to test. I know this may not be very smart but the worst thing that can happen is a stomach ache. Man I gotta get a fukin camera. This site is what Im trying to identify them by:http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/ggreatone%20234/. The ones I have look NOTHING like the fakes at the bottom. However I searched those 2 fakes in Googles images and came up with some pretty simialar pics to the real Copes. ANy more help is apprecieated.

Thanks again, Orizon


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1992498 - 10/09/03 08:51 AM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Yeah, go to http://www.mushroomjohn.com/species and click the Copelandia pages and the panaeolus pages for m,ore info and many pictures. There are 2500 images of 55 species of psilocybian mushrooms at my site.

mj


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Offlineorizon
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1992964 - 10/09/03 12:53 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Yea Mushrooh John I am a frequent visitor to your site not only for good shroom info but as a fan of your artwork as well. Like you said, "In the late 1940s this species (the Panaeolus antillarum) gained a reputation in Austrlia as the 'Hysteria Fungus' allegedly causing accidental hallucinogenic iniebriations in foragers in some parts of that country. Later it was determined that the actual cauitive mushroom was Copelandia cyanescens which is macroscopically similar. This species is edible but does not taste worth eating".......Well I can see how they were having problems. There are No absolute distinguishing factors between the Panaeolus antillarum and Pan Cyan (Copes). Im just gonna eat some and report back. Ive eaten Copes from this field a half a dozen times and have had excellent trips. But now that Im stockpiling dried specimens for the winter Im having doubts if all these guys truly are Copes. Ill report back with my conclusion.

peace, orizon


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #1993311 - 10/09/03 02:46 PM (11 years, 25 days ago)

Once you start picking Copelandia cyanescens you will notice a lot of differences between them, one ontable one is the bluing in the copelandia genera and then the thick stems of P. atntillarun and exceptional white edged gills of antillarum

mj


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Invisiblewandrnshaman
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2025870 - 10/20/03 04:04 PM (11 years, 14 days ago)

I've noticed lots of difference in the blueings too. My solution is simply to throw away anything that doesn't bruise blue. I think strong copes can't help but to bruise blue & if they aren't strong enough to do that, I don't want them anyway.


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: orizon]
    #2026230 - 10/20/03 06:28 PM (11 years, 13 days ago)

I don't really find antillarums and cyans all that similar looking. I guess that might be due to the fact that it was the first mushroom I learned to identify really, it's known as a "Death Cap" to uninformed Floridian hunters who got me started. But usually they are quite a bit larger, solid white, thicker stems, and I don't recall the gill color....but I think they are different there too.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: wandrnshaman]
    #2026281 - 10/20/03 06:42 PM (11 years, 13 days ago)

Hey Wandnrshaman,

Actually you are wrong in your assumptions, the less bluing in your Copelandia's the more potent they will retain in drying. It is only bruising blue becasue of improper handdling and more or less inmproper transporting of the collected shrooms. I have posted images along with bluing shrooms to show collections with hardly any bluing which is ot only an indication of psilocine buit also the more bluing the more loss of psilocine due to oxidation from human handling damged when picked or in a container not good for them.

Here is an image from GGreatOne234 of Florida, used with his permission.



It shows some light bluing in a few of the specimens. It also shows he knows how to properly handle his shrooms. hardly any bluing in this collection of larger capped Copelandia cyanescens.

Now I am only going to post here a few images. if you want to see the whole post on this use the search engine where I posted large collections with hardly any or no bluing at all.

These first two images are from Near Hanoi, North Vietnam:





and a closer shot of the above image



From near Bangkok:


Suphanburi, Thailand:




and from Cambodia, all of the above have hardly any bluing in the collected specimens except one partial stem where I pinched it and the cool image by GGreatOne234/

Here is one from Cambodia



So the less bluing, the more potent they will be fresh and dried. normally most collections of copes lose over half or more tof their potency in drying if not handled properly, transported properly and dried properly.

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (10/20/03 06:43 PM)


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2026309 - 10/20/03 06:48 PM (11 years, 13 days ago)

ChiefThunderbong,
says regarding P. antillarum's in Florida,

Quote:

"...it's known as a "Death Cap"




Death caps are Amanita Phalloides, which contain amatoxins and phalatoxins and are deadly .

The number one poisonous shroom in Florida accidently consumed by magic mushroom hunters is Chlorophyllum molybdites which some people confuse with P. cubenis and eat them ending up inthe hospital for emergency room stomack pumping sessions.

It is also knonw as Green Gills and Morgan's Lepiota.

Now Panaeolus antillarum causes no illness or sickness in people who eat it.

In four years at the shroomery and 30 years of picking shrooms, and living in Florida for 6 months int he late 1970s where i collected cubes and copes, I never once heard anyone refer to P. antillarum as the 'death cap.' Outside of thatr urban legend,

Have a shroomy day.

mj


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2026341 - 10/20/03 06:57 PM (11 years, 13 days ago)

I understand it is not really the Death Cap, or even poisonus. Notice I said thats what uninformed Floridian hunters call it. That is just what my friends called it to distuingish as non-active.


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Invisiblewandrnshaman
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2039887 - 10/24/03 04:34 PM (11 years, 10 days ago)

Thanks, mj, but I didn't mean that they should bruise completely blue. I understand that every indication of blueing also oxidizes psilocin. I use scissors when I hunt, so the end of the stalk where the cut is made is the only place I expect to find it. I'm a fairly experienced hunter but no mycologist. I know I dispose of some shrooms that are probably good but if I'm not 100 percent positive(per bluing), I won't take the chance.
Much thanks for pointing out that potent ones blue less! I thought it was the other way around.
Still, the easiest way to tell the difference between meanies & the other Pans would be the blueing, right? Is there any other way since they appear so similar?


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: wandrnshaman]
    #2039998 - 10/24/03 04:57 PM (11 years, 9 days ago)

When I lift the Copelandias from the ground I use my thumb abd first two fingers, the last two fingers I place on the bottom of the stem above the remaining manure and flick it off. Cutting causes osidation. Then i place the shrooms separately to druy so they are not on top of each other as seen in the photo image posted below. after they dry then I rub the rest of the manure and dirt off of them.

Check this image.

btw scissors are okay for P. cyanescens, P. baeocystis and P. stuntzii when they are in the wood-chip mulch bit if you live where there are Copes then I would not worry about the scissors, theyr are really not necessary.





Mj.



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InvisibleGGreatOne234
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Re: COPES- Panaeolus antillarum and other pan ID [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2050406 - 10/28/03 01:53 PM (11 years, 6 days ago)

:smile: Nice picture here mj



I took that photo for you a couple summers ago, with the requested red backround to bring out the bluing.

Yummy. :heartpump: 


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