Home | Community | Message Board

Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next >
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Minimum Wage Effects On Employment
    #19742075 - 03/24/14 05:33 PM (10 years, 7 days ago)

Here is a study published in The Review of Economics and Statistics, a reputable journal ranked #3 by Impact Factor in it's particular category (not a very big category, mind you).

The study examines the effects of minimum wage on earnings and employment using contiguous counties. The reason for using contiguous counties is that they are better able to account for outside influences (local economy, weather, travel, etc.). Many other papers use a single, or small group of counties, as a control for an entire state or the entire country.

The study presents some interesting, and possibly counter-intuitive findings. Here are some points that I think are important:

Quote:

We use policy discontinuities at state borders to identify the effects of minimum wages on earnings and employment in restaurants and other low-wage sectors. Our approach generalizes the case study method by considering all local differences in minimum wage policies between 1990 and 2006. We compare all contiguous county-pairs in the United States that straddle a state border and find no adverse employment effects. We show that traditional approaches that do not account for local economic conditions tend to produce spurious negative effects due to spatial heterogeneities in employment trends that are unrelated to minimum wage policies. Our findings are robust to allowing for long-term effects of minimum wage changes.


(Emphasis added)

Quote:

For cross-state contiguous counties, we find strong earnings effects and no employment effects of minimum wage increases.




Quote:

For the range of minimum wage increases over the past several decades, methodologies using local comparisons provide more reliable estimates by controlling for heterogeneity in employment growth. These estimates suggest no detectable employment losses from the kind of minimum wage increases we have seen in the United States.




The author's introduce and discuss caveats associated with their findings. I will summarize them here, but they are explained in much greater detail in the paper.

1) The results are limited by the scope of the data. Although the data shows sizeable differences in minimum wages across the country, it is not necessarily representative of what would happen for minimum wage increases much larger than the period they examined (1990-2006).

2) The author's focused their investigation on employment numbers, not the number of hours worked. It is possible that hours were reduced. The author's did a cursory investigation of this and estimated that any impact on hours is not likely to be large. Their estimates are only suggestive, though.

3) The data do not show whether the businesses studied responded to minimum wage increases by hiring more skilled workers and fewer less skilled workers.

The author's did several robustness tests to ensure the results were not significantly affected by spillover between counties, the data set selected, excluding counties with incomplete data, and other effects.

I think the results are interesting. Any thoughts?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Edited by BoldAsLove (03/24/14 08:46 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShins
Fun guy
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19746618 - 03/25/14 06:43 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Bullshit. So then taise it to $100000/hout


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Shins] * 1
    #19746719 - 03/25/14 06:59 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Wage quotas give legislative permission to businesses to pay low wages, where an economic model without a minimum wage would force these businesses to compete for skilled workers in a free market. Given the state of our economy, the rules wouldn't necessarily be absolutely consistent with the science of the free market as it's prospected to be without the assistance of a bully model, which we are so sadly adherent to now. But... if our economy allowed for the availability of a vast jobs market where people were free to pick and choose employment based on their individual skill, job availability and pay, these businesses would have a driving incentive to compensate their skilled workers on par with or exceeding other businesses in the same field. Since we have a monetary system based on an inflatable fiat trade medium, a heavy interventionist foreign policy, legal slave labor, taxation and heavy burdens on businesses not categorized as a corporation, the working class suffers, and the market isn't truly free. Arguably our bully capitalist (fascist) system creates the environment to where a minimum wage is needed to ensure "fair" wages to the working class, since there are simply not enough jobs to where an individual would have the choice of employment in the free market. Going full circle, this doesn't create that incentive to pay fair wages on the part of the business or corporation. The free market works in the absence of a coercive state force that has done nothing but prove to oppress its subjects...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747319 - 03/25/14 08:53 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Bullshit. So then taise it to $100000/hout




Brilliant retort! I guess you didn't read the paper or my post at all. From the OP:
Quote:

The results are limited by the scope of the data. Although the data shows sizeable differences in minimum wages across the country, it is not necessarily representative of what would happen for minimum wage increases much larger than the period they examined (1990-2006).




Now, do you have an actual response to the findings?

Quote:

Azurascender said:
Arguably our bully capitalist (fascist) system creates the environment to where a minimum wage is needed to ensure "fair" wages to the working class, since there are simply not enough jobs to where an individual would have the choice of employment in the free market. Going full circle, this doesn't create that incentive to pay fair wages on the part of the business or corporation. The free market works in the absence of a coercive state force that has done nothing but prove to oppress its subjects...




I agree, and this is what I think the issue is, and where this study comes into play. The argument is always made that raising the minimum wage would cause a loss of jobs, but it appears that that may not be true.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19747358 - 03/25/14 09:02 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

There's also the position that an increase in minimum wage would cause a lot of jobs to become automated to save capital. What most people fail to realize is that our money has devalued 98+% since 1863, and freefell faster after 1913 with the establishment of the Federal Reserve central bank. If the minimum wage equaled that of 1913, we would all be paid around 26 dollars today. Unfortunately inflation has also hit the doors of big corporation and even they cannot effectively pay us that much without either sacrificing a catastrophic margin of profit, or having to close their doors altogether.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747399 - 03/25/14 09:11 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
There's also the position that an increase in minimum wage would cause a lot of jobs to become automated to save capital.




The findings of this paper don't necessarily dispute that. They focused on restaurants and food service. However, it is cheaper to automate those process already, so increasing the minimum wage wouldn't necessarily make a big difference.

Quote:

If the minimum wage equaled that of 1913, we would all be paid around 26 dollars today.





Can you provide a source for this? For one thing, a minimum wage was introduced in 1938 with the Fair Labor Standards Act.

Regardless, this study shows that normal increases in the minimum wage do not cause a statistically significant loss of employment. So indexing the minimum wage to inflation, which I support, isn't likely to cause employment losses. According to this study anyways.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19747527 - 03/25/14 09:41 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Oh yes, fuck me. The 26 dollar figure is the amount of silver in the silver dollar in relation to the stock prices of mid 2011 when it met a small hike.Minimum wage should be in the 15-17$ bracket according to a lot of mainstream sources, but I've seen higher figures from economists I feel are more reputable. I am looking for them NOW.

EDIT: This is relevant because our money was made out of precious metals that would have granted us it's value had we not removed the silver from it, more of a pick at our monetary policy.

In the food service industry, it would be more difficult IMO to satisfactorily replace an individual with a machine. I'm talking to make a Subway sandwich or a decent pizza. I have no references to support that, but by deduction I suspect it to be true. But in places like GM and some food MANFACTURING companies outside of the realm of customer service, those machines excel.

I think an increase in minimum wage to even ten dollars would create a job loss and here's why. Technology and automation has become more and more inexpensive throughout the progression of mechanical innovation, which would allow a company to replace a person with a machine more readily than say even ten years ago. These mechanized systems don't take breaks, they work for less per hour and don't need to be covered under socialist Obamacare. The high availability and of such alternatives coupled with the benefits of not having to pay for additional human labor costs would indeed create an incentive for a general job loss. Just what you would save in medical premiums and yearly salary for one man I assume would put a big dent in the machine's cost. Of course, this is all baseless speculation on my end without charts and ledgers.

Edited by Microppose (03/25/14 09:44 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747561 - 03/25/14 09:48 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Not that leveling the minimum wage to adjust for inflation alone is the reason, but because the cost of new technology is dropping, much like computers and such, with new innovations.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747603 - 03/25/14 09:55 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
In the food service industry, it would be more difficult IMO to satisfactorily replace an individual with a machine. I'm talking to make a Subway sandwich or a decent pizza. I have no references to support that, but by deduction I suspect it to be true. But in places like GM and some food MANFACTURING companies outside of the realm of customer service, those machines excel.

I think an increase in minimum wage to even ten dollars would create a job loss and here's why. Technology and automation has become more and more inexpensive throughout the progression of mechanical innovation, which would allow a company to replace a person with a machine more readily than say even ten years ago. These mechanized systems don't take breaks, they work for less per hour and don't need to be covered under socialist Obamacare. The high availability and of such alternatives coupled with the benefits of not having to pay for additional human labor costs would indeed create an incentive for a general job loss. Just what you would save in medical premiums and yearly salary for one man I assume would put a big dent in the machine's cost. Of course, this is all baseless speculation on my end without charts and ledgers.




Wouldn't it already be cheaper to replace humans with machines? Why does an increase in the minimum wage have to prompt the change? If the change is going to happen, it's going to happen. An increase in minimum wage might speed up the change, but it also might not.

I disagree with your speculation. Besides this would only affect manufacturing jobs, which is a little more than 1% of minimum wage jobs (source). So the effects would be minimal if they did occur.

I still think the findings of this study are significant.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19747636 - 03/25/14 09:58 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

I will give it a thorough look over and get back to you, thanks. It wouldn't only affect manufacturing jobs though, I've already seen a smooth segue into automated checkout lines and toll booths, things like that. Those are minimum wagers.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747663 - 03/25/14 10:02 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

The reason I am assuming (again, baseless but perhaps a valid factor) that NOW would be the time to replace humans with mechanized workers is because of tech being cheaper than ever. This wouldn't even be considered ten years ago. A $2.50+ increase in human wage is not something that will be passed off.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747668 - 03/25/14 10:03 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
I will give it a thorough look over and get back to you, thanks. It wouldn't only affect manufacturing jobs though, I've already seen a smooth segue into automated checkout lines and toll booths, things like that. Those are minimum wagers.




I'm not disagreeing that there is a trend towards more automation. I just don't think the minimum wage has to increase for that trend to be true. Those jobs will get replaced regardless of the minimum wage.

I presented this study because I often hear that raising the minimum wage will lead to less jobs. Apparently, that fact may not be in evidence.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: Microppose]
    #19747679 - 03/25/14 10:04 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Azurascender said:
The reason I am assuming (again, baseless but perhaps a valid factor) that NOW would be the time to replace humans with mechanized workers is because of tech being cheaper than ever. This wouldn't even be considered ten years ago. A $2.50+ increase in human wage is not something that will be passed off.




Right, technology prices are a bigger impact than minimum wage. So raising the minimum wage or indexing it to inflation may not cause a huge loss of jobs that can be automated. That loss is going to happen anyways.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMicroppose
Things Maker
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 849
Loc: Amongst you...
Last seen: 26 days, 7 hours
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19747683 - 03/25/14 10:05 PM (10 years, 6 days ago)

Alright, let me look over your reference, it might change my mind here. I appreciate the time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19749612 - 03/26/14 11:08 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Azurascender said:
The reason I am assuming (again, baseless but perhaps a valid factor) that NOW would be the time to replace humans with mechanized workers is because of tech being cheaper than ever. This wouldn't even be considered ten years ago. A $2.50+ increase in human wage is not something that will be passed off.




Right, technology prices are a bigger impact than minimum wage. So raising the minimum wage or indexing it to inflation may not cause a huge loss of jobs that can be automated. That loss is going to happen anyways.



It will push more jobs into the range where it becomes economically sound to automate and offshore.  Thus there will be more automation and more offshoring.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19750081 - 03/26/14 12:43 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Azurascender said:
The reason I am assuming (again, baseless but perhaps a valid factor) that NOW would be the time to replace humans with mechanized workers is because of tech being cheaper than ever. This wouldn't even be considered ten years ago. A $2.50+ increase in human wage is not something that will be passed off.




Right, technology prices are a bigger impact than minimum wage. So raising the minimum wage or indexing it to inflation may not cause a huge loss of jobs that can be automated. That loss is going to happen anyways.



It will push more jobs into the range where it becomes economically sound to automate and offshore.  Thus there will be more automation and more offshoring.




Right, but it is going to happen anyways. This might expedite the process, but it also might not. Besides, as I mentioned before, manufacturing jobs are a little more than 1% of minimum wage jobs, so the effect isn't huge.

This study focused on the largest sector of minimum wage employment, food services, which are about 22% of minimum wage jobs, but they also included other low wage sectors.

People love to assume that raising the minimum wage is going to cause job losses, but that may not be true, and this paper suggests that it isn't. You can speculate that it will cause more jobs lost to automation and overseas, but can you provide evidence to support it?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19750337 - 03/26/14 01:45 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

You can automate a McDonalds line even more than it already is.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19750367 - 03/26/14 01:51 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You can automate a McDonalds line even more than it already is.




So? What's your point?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #19750574 - 03/26/14 02:33 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

The point is that raising the minimum wage will incentivize companies to automate more.  Did you not see my previous post on the matter?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBrian Jones
Club 27
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,418
Loc: attending Snake Church
Last seen: 2 hours, 35 minutes
Re: Minimum Wage Effects On Employment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19751612 - 03/26/14 05:57 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

I know direct comparisons across systems have problems but Australia's minimum wage is $16 in U.S. Dollars and they have lower unemployment.

    In the U.S. Costco pays median wages over $10 and they seem to be prospering, and they don't have the shit reputation that Walmart has.

    If you pay over $10 dollars you can increase efficiency and get rid of the slugs. I don't know whose problem the slugs are but I don't spend time worrying about them, except the mildly disabled people who could benefit from occupational training.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | Next >

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Minimum Wage Revisited
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 4,351 33 04/15/04 12:49 PM
by Tao
* A couple of questions on the minimum wage
( 1 2 all )
Evolving 3,513 29 10/21/03 03:40 PM
by Evolving
* Should minimum wage be raised?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
RebelSteve33 9,842 94 08/03/12 12:52 AM
by vladtepes
* Corporate pay scales...
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
GazzBut 4,003 84 11/09/04 05:17 PM
by Anonymous
* The young are becoming less liberal
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
Phred 11,898 195 11/17/03 12:16 PM
by Anonymous
* Are Americans more evil?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 5,470 64 12/18/03 10:13 AM
by medicinebag
* Officials get taste of how lower income live
( 1 2 all )
Edame 2,924 38 12/16/03 03:03 PM
by monoamine
* Weapons of Minimum Destruction Ravus 886 6 08/23/04 01:55 PM
by retread

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
11,403 topic views. 2 members, 9 guests and 36 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.