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OfflineCoopdog
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Tryptamine exposure.
    #19614538 - 02/25/14 12:35 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Once I had plenty of spore prints for future study, I came across the relatively few threads about incorporating Tryptamine into the substrate for future colonization of P. cubensis.

Because I obtained 10g of Tryptamine during the 3rd flush of PF cakes. I had not dunked and rolled them and this is how I went about it. I have a degree in microbiology, but in no way would this be considered a scientific study, more simply a cause and effect experiment. I did use the ratio of .16 g per 44ml. Which you would then use approximately 3.64 g per L . Using a sterile ice pick, I took each cake and perforated them uniformly, say 20-30 openings per cake. Then the rinsed cakes were placed back in the womb of the 1/2 pint jar. Next, the Tryptamine solution, made with sterile tap water, was poured over the cakes and filled each jar until the cake floated, or became 3/4 submerged, mainly to stretch the T brew. These were sealed with lids and refrigerated 24h. The jars were then drained of the brew which was collected in a container. Then sterized vermiculite was mixed with the contents of the container of T,  and this served as the casing. They now are under a prolonged period of darkness so that hopefully the mycelial network will colonize the casing layer firmly enough to support the future fruiting masses.

One distinction is worth noting. I did add  the tryptamine to sterile water. The T was never exposed to the heat of the autoclave. Not sure how sturdy the molecule is at 270'F, so i assumed that since the cakes were already established, they would be less prone to any contaminants obtained via transfer, which did occur in a closed hood environment. The effluent was collected and refrigerated . It will then be diluted and autoclaved, and fed back to the cakes via syringe.

Time and testing will determine any level of success, and unless the impact is overtly obvious to the tester,  I would not waste the time and money, just grow a larger tub.


Time will tell.


Edited by Coopdog (02/25/14 12:46 AM)


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OfflinePussyFartM
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Coopdog]
    #19615072 - 02/25/14 03:37 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Sounds like you have a very old school way of doing things....let me try and get you up to speed.

Cold shocking tropical species does nothing but slow them down, so placing the dunk water in the fridge was pointless, and possibly slowed them down.

Colonizing in darkness is outdated....everything does better with some ambient light.

Rolling a cake in verm after 3 flushes will only trap molds under the verm layer, compressing them into the cakes.

Only roll in verm before the first flush, just dunk without rolling for each additional flush.

Lastly, doing this on a third flush is not really going to prove much of anything....the cakes are almost spent.


Jars/bags/tubs/trays should colonize @ room temperature getting ambient/indirect light.

Main pinning triggers are full colonization, FAE and Evaporation off of the substrate.

Light is a secondary pinning trigger. For tropical species temperature is not a pinning factor.

P. Cubensis are a tropical species. You could colonize at 70F and fruit at 80F with great results.

Light has been proven beneficial during all stages of mycellium growth. Mushrooms like mammals have a circadian rhythm.

You want ambient/indirect light(on a 12/12 schedule preferably) for colonization and consolidation.

You want direct/intense 6500K light on a 12/12 schedule for fruiting.

Optimal temps are mid 70s throughout the whole grow, but anywhere from 65F-80F is acceptable.

Incubation is outdated/uneeded unless temps in the range stated above cannot be kept.

The inside of the jar is always a few degrees warmer than the outside because the mycellium produces heat..mycellium tends to stall at temps above 86F , and contams thrive.

Fruiting at cooler temps tends to produce denser, meatier fruits, while fruiting at higher temps will often produce hollow, less dense stems.


Mycelium should be exposed to ambient room light from day of inoculation as has been known for many years.  Light is not a pinning trigger until after full colonization and an increase in air is given, and even then it's a secondary pinning trigger.
RR

Either way I wish you luck.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: PussyFart]
    #19615310 - 02/25/14 06:09 AM (8 months, 26 days ago)

Furthermore, there's never been a documented follow up to Gartz's claim that adding T does anything to change potency of the finished product, despite hundreds of experiments attempting to prove such.
RR


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OfflineCoopdog
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19615890 - 02/25/14 12:03 PM (8 months, 25 days ago)

Yeah, just thought I would try, but thanks for the great tips on the fundamentals of proper cultivation. I see the most consistent fruit using bulk substrate, and will pursue that route in the future. I did get several good flushes, and definitely enjoyed the fruits of my labor. You're right, the more fully colonized cakes tended to fruit  faster.  Maybe the Tryptamine enhancement is a pipe dream, but it would be nice to increase potency, and decrease the total mass of shrooms to ingest.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Coopdog]
    #19622044 - 02/26/14 06:29 PM (8 months, 24 days ago)

Strain isolation is way to go if you want to increase potency. There's an element of luck to it but once you get a culture of a potent strain you can expand it to grow a lot. Same goes for cloning. Although cloned mycelium won't necessarily be of a single strain it still produces pretty consistent results.


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OfflineCoopdog
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Kizzle]
    #19624279 - 02/27/14 02:07 AM (8 months, 24 days ago)

I hope this isn't what I think it is. If it's spider web, time for a redeaux. I did case the cakes with verm that had about 3 fragmented cakes mixed in.


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Offline1down5up
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Coopdog]
    #19626257 - 02/27/14 03:29 PM (8 months, 23 days ago)

I used seaweed, soaked, rinsed, dried, powdered, then pastuerized.  I used 30g of seaweed to 4 quarts of spawn.  I think using natural additives that contain T would be a better alternative to soaking them.

I don't know what advantage, if any, i created for them, they're growing good though, so it didn't hurt them any.

I've got some plates with monocultures, or very very close, that i'll do a side by side on with the seaweed to see what the outcome might be.  I'll get started on it soon as this grow is over and I free up the monotubs.


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Offlinetripologist
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: 1down5up]
    #19638620 - 03/02/14 10:26 AM (8 months, 21 days ago)

I highly doubt tryptamine would make the shrooms more potent because the psilocin and psilocybin is biosynthesized from tryptophan. Instead maybe add more tryptophan to the substrate.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: tripologist]
    #19638774 - 03/02/14 11:41 AM (8 months, 20 days ago)

I'm pretty sure he said seaweed, which has a high concentrations of tryptophan.

He's repeating some of my experiments from a decade ago when I used to drive down the beach at low tide loading up my truck with seaweed.
RR

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4133970#4133970

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5585735#5585735

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13215261#13215261


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InvisibleStygianKnight
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19639057 - 03/02/14 01:20 PM (8 months, 20 days ago)

While this is mostly speculation it seems to me that mushies actually do a good job at converting substrate to psilocin.
Where things drag is the conversion from psilocin to the more stable (especially when dried) psilocybin.
In which case it's not the precursors but the phosphatase enzyme that needs a boost which is a lot more complicated than just adding an ingredient to the sub.


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Offlinetripologist
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: StygianKnight]
    #19639320 - 03/02/14 02:37 PM (8 months, 20 days ago)

I think the substrates we are using are already rich enough in tryptophan that adding anymore would not increase potency in any noticeable way.


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Offline1down5up
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: tripologist]
    #19640365 - 03/02/14 06:27 PM (8 months, 20 days ago)

i'm not looking to increase potency, i'm merely adding it to see if it has any positive benefit at all....and i did get the idea from RR's posts on the subject.


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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: 1down5up]
    #19641155 - 03/02/14 09:25 PM (8 months, 20 days ago)

The pot strains we have available now are significantly better than a few years ago in part due to laboratory potency testing which we couldn't get a decade ago.

Hopefully, more enlightened minds will follow suit and legalize mushrooms and cactus, etc., so the labs can do psilocybin and psilocin potency testing for us.
RR


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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19644150 - 03/03/14 02:11 PM (8 months, 19 days ago)

Maybe one day..


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OfflineCoopdog
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Jot]
    #19675260 - 03/10/14 11:27 AM (8 months, 13 days ago)




These were the first cakes I tried. I made the mistake of impatience by starting the grow without first having the environmental parameters stable. The temps varied from a low of 55'F to a high of 92'F. Time spent at these temps are unknown. At the longest, maybe 8-12 hours. The first flush produced these "stemless" fruiting bodies. Without the stem anatomy, the fruit ground to a powder much easier than stems do. Compared to subsequent flushes, these were definitely more potent, gram for gram. I have 30 BRF cakes now colonizing. I'm tempted to try to reproduce the thermal shock treatment with a portion of them, and vary and record the times at temperatures.

I do wonder why later flushes produced normal fruit, rather than the mutants. The cakes were initially inoculated with MS syringes of P. cubensis. Current grow was inoculated from prints of the normal fruit from the first grow. The mutants formed only scant gill anatomy, which remained unveiled if present. Efforts to acquire spores from these fruiting bodies were not successful. See my gallery for more pics.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Coopdog]
    #19675344 - 03/10/14 12:02 PM (8 months, 13 days ago)

This is a common phenomena. The slang term around here is 'blob'.  Search that term and you'll see lots of grows like yours. It's caused by exposing to fruiting conditions before the mycelium has consolidated its hold on the substrate.  In other words, the brf is too nutritious for fruiting until the mycelium has consumed most of it.  This is why later flushes are normal.

It's important to remember that the mushrooms are fruiting from the vermiculite, and the brown rice flour is the supplement. First flush would be normal too if you'd waited a week or two after full colonization before placing in fruiting.
RR


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InvisibleDelysid_25
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19695099 - 03/14/14 02:33 PM (8 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The pot strains we have available now are significantly better than a few years ago in part due to laboratory potency testing which we couldn't get a decade ago.

Hopefully, more enlightened minds will follow suit and legalize mushrooms and cactus, etc., so the labs can do psilocybin and psilocin potency testing for us.
RR




quanitative testing for psilocin could be done in the home ten years ago and still can be today by hobbyist.

Extract from 1g mushroom powder using 10ml vinegar, heat to 70*c cool and filter. then reduce to 50% of volume under vacuum then just spot and run tlc plates (available on ebay) and develop with Ehrlich's_reagent (ingredients available on ebay), then using known dilutions you spot and run plates until there are no signs of a colorimetric reaction in the rf value responsible for psilocin. then calculate and plot a concentration curve and you have a quantitative value for your original 1g sample.

Rf values

Psilocybin                0.40
Baeocystin                0.51
Bufotenine                0.54
Psilocin                  0.55
Serotonin                0.65
Tryptophan                0.68

using a 7:3 methanol/vinegar eluent over silica

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrlich's_reagent



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Offline1down5up
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Delysid_25]
    #19695418 - 03/14/14 04:07 PM (8 months, 8 days ago)

well, that was easy!

Have you ever done samples of fresh vs old/dried mushrooms?  Reason I wonder is that psilocin is so unstable, i wonder how long it takes for it to be completely broken down....

Can you do liberty caps too?


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~~Everything is relative~~


A Simplified Overview of Mushroom Cultivation Strategies  -  RR says  -  EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes  -  Frank's list of goodies  -  Cronicr's Goodies


No one is placed higher than another no matter race or creed or gender, we must teach forgiveness and compassion for all life.  J.L.


Edited by 1down5up (03/14/14 04:10 PM)


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InvisibleDelysid_25
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: 1down5up]
    #19695488 - 03/14/14 04:28 PM (8 months, 8 days ago)

>Have you ever done samples of fresh vs old/dried mushrooms?

Yes, the drying process destroys much of the psilocin leaving mostly the more stable psilocybin and baeocystin.

>Can you do liberty caps too?

Yes sir! Any type of mushroom/fungi containing an indole ring can be tested. And the ehrlich's reagent alone can be used to help identify wild mushrooms you suspect to be psychoactive, I keep a small amount in my hunting kit/pack :thumbup:


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Offline1down5up
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Re: Tryptamine exposure. [Re: Delysid_25]
    #19707626 - 03/17/14 10:22 AM (8 months, 6 days ago)

How much of the psilocin would you say is lost to drying, if you dry them in about 8 hours in a dehydrator?  Sorry for all the questions, i am just really interested in the whole drying destroying the potency of differnt species of mush.  I know libs have an extremely low %age of psilocin when fresh, so drying them does almost nothing to the potency.

Excellent post Delysid_25:thumbup:


--------------------
~~Everything is relative~~


A Simplified Overview of Mushroom Cultivation Strategies  -  RR says  -  EvilMushroom666's Take on BRF Cakes  -  Frank's list of goodies  -  Cronicr's Goodies


No one is placed higher than another no matter race or creed or gender, we must teach forgiveness and compassion for all life.  J.L.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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