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OfflineDelay
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G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate?
    #19547847 - 02/10/14 01:23 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hi there,

I would like to know if it would be problematic to expand sawdust spawn to sawdust spawn. I understand that normally one spawns sawdust to final fruiting substrate, being that the mycelium would already have been run a fair bit. That being said, I have large volumes of sterile colonized G1 and G2 spawn, therefore there would be minimal G2G transfers.

The process would be: G1/G2 (sterile) -> Sawdust (pasteurized) -> Sawdust (pasteurized) -> outdoor beds.

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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19547922 - 02/10/14 01:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

You could expand from g2 into sawdust but then I would go into straw if your talking about oysters. Or fruit the sawdust 2 bags out. G 2 to Sawdust to sawdust 2 and then into straw is pushing the expansion but it totally depends on the culture at hand.

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #19548022 - 02/10/14 02:01 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Okay, but G1 -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate should be okay by that logic?

Secondly, wouldn't G1/G2 mix -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate somewhat negate the mycelium senescence? I'm under the impression that the two cell lines would mingle being that they are from the same G0 culture, therefore the G1 portion should rejuvenate the cell line somewhat, no?

Furthermore I could mix G1/G2 spawned sawdust with G1 spawned sawdust when spawning.

I'm wanting to do sawdust -> sawdust mostly with hypsizygus ulmarius and Stropharia rugosoannulata, which are both pretty aggressive colonizers, although I can't say much as far as their senescence rates. Maybe somebody here can offer advice as to whether my approach is likely to work well for these species?

Edited by Delay (02/10/14 03:06 PM)

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19549039 - 02/10/14 06:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

it totally depends on many different things.  There's no reason you couldn't do any of those things unless you notice decreased colonization speeds.


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: drake89]
    #19551263 - 02/11/14 06:38 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have been asking myself this same question.  There is only one way to find out; speculation doesn't do much.


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Aleon]
    #19551279 - 02/11/14 06:47 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Sawdust to sawdust transfers rarely work out well, especially when pasteurized/unsupplemented.  The sawdust ends up contaminating before it gets colonized.

We supplement sawdust for fast colonization.  The supplements are consumed before fruiting time comes, but they help in getting rapid colonization.

If you want outdoor beds for spring, use grains to sawdust and allow that to colonize over winter.  In spring, use the supplemented, colonized sawdust to inoculate your outdoor beds.
RR


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19551575 - 02/11/14 09:25 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Sawdust to sawdust transfers rarely work out well, especially when pasteurized/unsupplemented.  The sawdust ends up contaminating before it gets colonized.

We supplement sawdust for fast colonization.  The supplements are consumed before fruiting time comes, but they help in getting rapid colonization.

If you want outdoor beds for spring, use grains to sawdust and allow that to colonize over winter.  In spring, use the supplemented, colonized sawdust to inoculate your outdoor beds.
RR



I am really struggling to understand why non-supplemented sawdust would be incapable of supporting sufficient growth rates, given that 100 cubic feet of wood chips can be inoculated with 5-20lbs of sawdust spawn. Furthermore, nutrients are more readily available in sawdust than in wood chips. Additionally, pasteurized sawdust -> pasteurized sawdust would be inoculated at a much higher rate than pasteurized sawdust -> unpasteurized wood chips outdoors. Would you be so kind as to clarify this RR? I trust your experience, but it seems illogical nonetheless, given that sawdust is wood.

I would like to add that I spawned SRA to 10 lbs bags of pasteurized sawdust 3 days ago, and it's already 75% colonized. Furthermore, I spawned to the sawdust with nutrient-deficient spawn (spent brewer's grain). Given this rapid colonization rate of this culture, perhaps I could succeed at sawdust -> sawdust? I may experiment with doing so, but to be safe perhaps I'll heed RR's advice for the most part and spawn to straw logs or something...I can't fruit it indoors, and I have to wait at least 3 months to spawn my outdoor beds, so I've gotta do something with it.

Edited by Delay (02/11/14 09:29 AM)

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19551604 - 02/11/14 09:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

when others are talking about colonising unsupplemented sawdust, they probably mean colonising in an incubator or indoors. when you re talking about the sawdust to woodchips bed, you are talking about outdoors. the conditions of colonisation make the difference in how well a organism can compete.


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19551619 - 02/11/14 09:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Delay said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Sawdust to sawdust transfers rarely work out well, especially when pasteurized/unsupplemented.  The sawdust ends up contaminating before it gets colonized.

We supplement sawdust for fast colonization.  The supplements are consumed before fruiting time comes, but they help in getting rapid colonization.

If you want outdoor beds for spring, use grains to sawdust and allow that to colonize over winter.  In spring, use the supplemented, colonized sawdust to inoculate your outdoor beds.
RR



I am really struggling to understand why non-supplemented sawdust would be incapable of supporting sufficient growth rates, given that 100 cubic feet of wood chips can be inoculated with 5-20lbs of sawdust spawn. Furthermore, nutrients are more readily available in sawdust than in wood chips. Additionally, pasteurized sawdust -> pasteurized sawdust would be inoculated at a much higher rate than pasteurized sawdust -> unpasteurized wood chips outdoors. Would you be so kind as to clarify this RR? I trust your experience, but it seems illogical nonetheless, given that sawdust is wood.

I would like to add that I spawned SRA to 10 lbs bags of pasteurized sawdust 3 days ago, and it's already 75% colonized. Furthermore, I spawned to the sawdust with nutrient-deficient spawn (spent brewer's grain). Given this rapid colonization rate of this culture, perhaps I could succeed at sawdust -> sawdust? I may experiment with doing so, but to be safe perhaps I'll heed RR's advice for the most part and spawn to straw logs or something...I can't fruit it indoors, and I have to wait at least 3 months to spawn my outdoor beds, so I've gotta do something with it.




ITs more of a texture thing.  sawdust to sawdust transfers are just slow because the myc doesnt jump off the sawdust like it jumps off of grain, and if you are putting it into more sawdust that has a huge amount of fine, high surface area particles, it just takes a long time to colonize; much longer than grain to sawdust transfers.  the only one we have had any real luck with is lions mane.  it seems to do fine sawdust to sawdust.  Oysters not so much.  better to go into straw or let the sawdust be the end of the line bulk sub

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: forrest]
    #19551639 - 02/11/14 09:49 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

forrest said:
when others are talking about colonising unsupplemented sawdust, they probably mean colonising in an incubator or indoors. when you re talking about the sawdust to woodchips bed, you are talking about outdoors. the conditions of colonisation make the difference in how well a organism can compete.



Right, I guess I didn't articulate my point well.

I was under the impression that supplementing spawn was done primarily to increase the nutrient content of the final substrate for fruiting purposes, due to the high likelihood of contamination if pasteurized substrate is supplemented. I was unaware that it might affect growth rates on sawdust as well.

That being said, I spawned with nutrient-deficient spawn to unsupplemented sawdust resulting in incredibly fast colonization! Perhaps SRA is an exception to this rule, as is lion's mane?

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
ITs more of a texture thing.  sawdust to sawdust transfers are just slow because the myc doesnt jump off the sawdust like it jumps off of grain, and if you are putting it into more sawdust that has a huge amount of fine, high surface area particles, it just takes a long time to colonize; much longer than grain to sawdust transfers.  the only one we have had any real luck with is lions mane.  it seems to do fine sawdust to sawdust.  Oysters not so much.  better to go into straw or let the sawdust be the end of the line bulk sub




:thumbup:



Thanks for the input. I will post back results of sawdust -> sawdust experimentation using SRA, but I'll go sawdust -> straw for the majority of it.

Edited by Delay (02/11/14 09:55 AM)

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19552170 - 02/11/14 12:25 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hrm...stamets recomends grain->sawdust->sawdust (or supplemented sawdust?) as a means for spawn expansion for at least some species.  but perhaps the reason Amanita gave is why my sawdust->sawdust transfers have been so slow growing (S75, mainly).


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: drake89]
    #19553893 - 02/11/14 06:40 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Shiitake 75 colonizes poorly on un-supplemented sawdust.  It also fruits poorly with lots of mutants on over-supplemented sawdust so be careful.
RR


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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: RogerRabbit] * 1
    #19556511 - 02/12/14 09:35 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Not sure if this is a crazy thought or not, but could one simply supplement the first round of pasteurized sawdust with slow-release fertilizer, as is commonly practiced outdoors? I imagine this might negate points made by RR about insufficient nutrients to spawn from sawdust to sawdust?

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Re: G1 grain -> sawdust -> sawdust -> final fruiting substrate? [Re: Delay]
    #19556811 - 02/12/14 11:12 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

...due to the high likelihood of contamination if pasteurized substrate is supplemented.




With lime-pasteurizing, this is beginning to look like it's not as concrete a fact as once thought. Myself, and a few others, have been playing around with lime-pasteurizing bran-supplemented sawdust (or pellets) with very good results. In my experiment, not one of 14x supplemented 3# blocks had any contamination. After flushing them all a couple times, I bagged them up to store for spring outdoor beds (like RR said to do).

As to the sawdust to sawdust spawning, here's a thought. If sawdust is such a good nutrient base for most mycelium, it's not going to need to go searching for better nutrients. RR has stated many times that substrate variation is preferable, and that myc will switch from wispy to rhizo growth depending on the nutrient levels, right? So if the myc from a colonized block of sawdust just gets dumped into the same nutrient base, it's not going to switch to rhizo growth and takes so much longer to colonize the new substrate. Compared to supplemented sawdust, straw has very little nutrition. That's why it colonizes so quickly, the myc has more room to easily move and turns rhizo in search of adequate nutrients.

I wouldn't call non-supplemented sawdust "nutrient deficient" by any means. It is exactly the nutrients these species evolved to digest. Supplementing is just giving the myc a round of steroids so it can beat the crap out of competitors.

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