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InvisibleAleon
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Lime Tek: Pasteurizing Sawdust Pellets with Lime * 1
    #19367080 - 01/04/14 09:09 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

The lime bath method for pasteurizing straw has had such an immense impact on my vision of mushroom production.  Though we currently don't use straw on our farm; im sure at some point we will. When we do, we will be using the lime bath method.  For now, Id like to experiment with sawdust and lime. I know there is some info about this; but I would like to do some trials and have a basic discussion thread on using lime to treat sawdust for spawning. THANK YOU SOLARITY for the lime to H2O ratios; and my bluelab trimeter verified it :dancer:


Approximate ratio of lime:water to achieve a PH of 12.5 is
2g hydrated lime : 1L of H2O



1/3/2014 - Started Brown Oyster "213" experiment.
-Made 9L of warm lime water(5g/L not 2g/L) poured it onto 9KG oak pellets and .5KG pelleted gypsum. 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes.
-Added 1.8KG of brown oyster "213" rye grain spawn. (200g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes.
-Loaded into a large column type bag (and filled 1 filter bag as well)
-Poked holes in bag; incubate at room temp
*Possibly too much lime in water; slow growth?
- 1/13/2014 -Fully colonized with no contams (10 days); Begin consolidation
- 1/31/2014 -Put into FC (28 days incubation); Pins formed invitro within 3T bag
- 2/8/2014 -Harvested 1st flush (9 days in FC); YIELD: .5lbs; pictures on page 5


1/6/2014 - Started Blue Oyster "PL" Experiment
-Made 9L of warm lime water(2g/L) poured it onto 9KG oak pellets and .5KG pelleted gypsum. 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes.
-Added 1.8KG of blue oyster "PL" rye grain spawn. (200g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes.
-Loaded into a large column type bag (and filled 1 filter bag as well)
-Poked holes in bag; incubate at room temp
- 1/16/2014 -Fully colonized with no contams (10 days); Begin consolidation
- 2/3/2014 - put into FC (28 days incubation); cut 2 X's in bag
- 2/15/2014 -Harvested 1st flush (12 days in FC); YIELD: .5lbs


1/6/2014 - Started Shiitake "Jumbo" and "3782" Experiment
-Made 2 batches of 12L of warm lime water(2g/L) poured it onto 12KG oak pellets and .6KG pelleted gypsum. 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes.
-Added 1.8KG of shiitake "Jumbo" rye grain spawn to the first batch and 1.8KG shiitake "3782" rye grain spawn to the second batch. (150g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes.
-Put on gloves and loaded into 8 3T-filter bags at 3.3-3.6KG/Bag
-1/16/2014 -Minute amounts of green mold growing on both the Shiitake batches. So minute that most of the bags have already ate the green, and the small amount left looks like it will be consumed soon.  Besides this, the blocks look great. Contam sources: Not enough spawn (used less than oysters) or not enough lime.
- 1/30/2014 -Green mold has been fully consumed by mycelium.


3/13/2014 - Started Brown Oyster "213" %20 bran experiment.
-Made 13L of warm lime water(4g/L not 2g/L)
-Added 2.4KG of bran to the lime water and stirred to saturate bran
-Poured Lime H2O + Bran slurry onto 9KG oak pellets and .5KG pelleted gypsum. 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes.
-Added 1.8KG of brown oyster "213" rye grain spawn. (200g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes.
-Loaded into 9 3T-filter bags at 2.7KG/Bag


3/13/2014 - Started Shiitake "Jumbo" Experiment
-Made 11L of warm lime water(4g/L not 2g/L) poured it onto 12KG oak pellets and .6KG pelleted gypsum. 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes.
-Added 1.8KG of shiitake "Jumbo" rye grain spawn to the first batch (150g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes
-Loaded into 9 3T-filter bags at 3KG/Bag


3/13/2014 - Started Shiitake "3782" %2 bran Experiment
-Made 12L of warm lime water(4g/L not 2g/L) poured it onto 12KG oak pellets, .6KG pelleted gypsum, and 220g bran 
-Mixed in cement mixer for 10 minutes
-Added 1.8KG of shiitake "3782" rye grain spawn to the first batch (150g wet spawn per 1KG dry sawdust)
-Mixed in cement mixer for 5 minutes
-Loaded into 9 3T-filter bags at 3KG/Bag


NOTES:
- Using 4-5g/L of hydrated lime in H2O instead of 2g/L showed only a slightly slower growth rate, but seemed to be much more resistant to contams.  I am thinking that since I am using lime H2O to hydrate and not to soak the sawdust, that if you add more lime to the point that it precipitates out of the H2O it still ends up in the sawdust after re-hydration (which wouldn't happen with soaking). This "extra" lime may provide long term resistance to contams, as it may keep the PH up for longer periods of time. More experimentation to be done on this.


Edited by Aleon (03/14/14 08:50 AM)


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19367132 - 01/04/14 09:45 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

nice to see some serious experimenting being done

but wouldn't it be better to use it on un-pelletized sawdust?
as pellets will do fine with just hot water poured over them, and ''normal'' sawdust will have more contaminants


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InvisibleAleon
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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: forrest]
    #19367156 - 01/04/14 10:00 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

forrest said:
nice to see some serious experimenting being done

but wouldn't it be better to use it on un-pelletized sawdust?
as pellets will do fine with just hot water poured over them, and ''normal'' sawdust will have more contaminants




Well, im using what I have; and that is pellets.  I think pellets have a higher chance of success, but I think success with sawdust would have much stronger implications.  I am going to do this with hot water too. But I want to try it with lime, because eventually I may want to try supplementing with low bran %'s.  Also boiling gallons of water takes longer than mixing lime water.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19367214 - 01/04/14 10:25 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Am in midst of trying this out with Reishi, King Oyster and Pink Oyster. I used two different concentrations of lime, curious to see how that goes. I was wondering about the gypsum, should it be added after the soak? Since it buffers pH?


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19367228 - 01/04/14 10:29 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

I like the idea of figuring out an upper limit with supplements of like usage would be an excellent find indeed. Since my basement farm is no more right now I played around with some oyster spawn I had laying around. I'm sure some of you have seen the guys video using food grand H2O2. I basically tried to replicate that. I didn't make lime water, but I did toss my pellets in it to evenly coat them. I added the peroxide and gypsum to hot tap water, somewhere around 130 F. I also added a supplement I was using when in was pasteurizing straw, a store bought composted chicken manure product. I mixed everything together in a tub, let the substrate cool to 100 F then added my spawn and portioned out into filter bags.

Here's my recipe:

15.5# oak pellets
25# hot tap water
1 C. 35% food grade H2O2
2 Oz lime
12.4 Oz chicken manure
4 # oyster rye spawn

The temp read 125F after mixing and took about 2 hours to cool down to mixing temps. Unfortunately I don't have a pH meter anymore so from that stand point I can't say where I'm at. This was on 12/24 and the bags are nearly colonized now.

I know this isn't exactly your experiment Aleon, but my plans were to next time cut the peroxide out and just use lime and varying amounts of the chicken compost for supplement until I hit an upper limit. I guess I should try bran also and get another pH meter to keep in line with what you started the thread for. Keep us updated.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: chefinainteasy]
    #19367342 - 01/04/14 11:28 AM (9 months, 14 days ago)

cool!  but like forrest was getting at, you probably could have just added hot water and been fine.  with the pellets that is.  Now bran, that's dangerous- but I like it!


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: drake89]
    #19369047 - 01/04/14 06:21 PM (9 months, 14 days ago)

Aleon, did you check the ph of the limewater with smaller amounts of Ca(OH)2  - As it reaches saturation point at 1.5g/L the rest will just precipitate out (hence the milky look)

I used straw soak to make up a test run of 30 small straw bags inocc with Pl.Ost, - great results! Then I did a run of 50 - also great. Then I did 146.... and got 146 contaminated bags. I have also repeatedly tried with KO (straw/Sawdust/Alfalfa and mixes thereof) but only got contams, though I think this may be to do with the slow KO strain I was using. About to try with some hopefully more aggressive strains.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: solarity]
    #19369992 - 01/04/14 09:37 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

I have oyster and king oyster on small straw logs pasteurized using a lime soak. It is 34 Celcius here (90-110 F) and both king oyster and oyster bags have fully colonized within 2-3 weeks. I am just waiting for my fruiting chamber to induce pinning.

I had some contaminants but it was expected the straw was too wet, not chopped enough and some bags not compacted enough.

One bag that looked really good showed up trich spots. I removed the collar to try and fruit it and separated it.

I am waiting for fuel pellets and it was my intent to mix straw with pellets and pasteurize the whole thing using lime. By using higher grain spawn ratio you shouldn't need to supplement shiitake blocks so I don't have to sterilize any substrate. I'm all for lazy options :wink:

I will post my results here in the coming months...keeping an eye on your progresses


Edited by Spiral Climber (01/04/14 09:39 PM)


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Spiral Climber]
    #19370084 - 01/04/14 10:02 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
I have oyster and king oyster on small straw logs pasteurized using a lime soak. It is 34 Celcius here (90-110 F) and both king oyster and oyster bags have fully colonized within 2-3 weeks. I am just waiting for my fruiting chamber to induce pinning.




I hope your fruiting chamber is a lot cooler than that or you may have trouble getting your kings to pin!

Quote:

Spiral Climber said:
By using higher grain spawn ratio you shouldn't need to supplement shiitake blocks so I don't have to sterilize any substrate. I'm all for lazy options :wink:




This method has worked well for me :thumbup:


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: solarity]
    #19370394 - 01/04/14 11:30 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Why do you think your biggest batch failed, Solarity? Could the PH have been too low? different sawdust mixture than the first two trials? different strain?

*Just noticed you are using straw instead of sawdust.


Edited by deadmandave (01/04/14 11:32 PM)


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: deadmandave]
    #19371359 - 01/05/14 06:23 AM (9 months, 13 days ago)

I'll have to look at my notes at the time but the sub was the same the spawn was the same. Could have been soak time could have been ratio, the amount of water is eyeballed in a 750L tank. They colonised just fine for 10 days then day 12 was trich city. These were for kits so they are abt 1.4kg straw in a filter patch bag. I dumped all of the contaminated bags outside with a cut in them, quite a few fruited.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: solarity]
    #19375891 - 01/06/14 07:34 AM (9 months, 12 days ago)

I've been experimenting with lime too and I feel its promising to use on grain/coffee/sawdust without PCing, it just needs to be dialed in..
I have a test grain spawn and rye seed jars that have yet to develop any mould or anything after a week only boiled in lime water.. so I think its gonna work:)


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Mushmitch]
    #19376088 - 01/06/14 09:17 AM (9 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

islander20 said:
Am in midst of trying this out with Reishi, King Oyster and Pink Oyster. I used two different concentrations of lime, curious to see how that goes. I was wondering about the gypsum, should it be added after the soak? Since it buffers pH?




Add gypsum for the minerals not its effect on PH. Add it whenever.

Chef- Interesting experiment; keep us updated, especially on the chicken manure as a supplement

Quote:

drake89 said:
cool!  but like forrest was getting at, you probably could have just added hot water and been fine.  with the pellets that is.  Now bran, that's dangerous- but I like it!




I prefer to do lime bath.  Im planning on making 100's of bags a week like this if it works. Im not going to carry 5 gallons boiling H2O from my stove, down the stairs, pour it into a cement mixer 10-20 times a day. I know a few people who have nasty scars from spilling boiled water doing things like this. Lime water can be mixed in a second (whereas it takes me about 1 hour to boil 5 gal H2O which is expensive since im on LP out here in the country), and is safe to the touch unlike boiling water.  Also, on a side note, im a chemical kind of guy :shrug:

Solarity- thanks for the tip on lime ratios; I will try yours and see if it gets me to PH 12.5 then update the OP with the new ratio.  Also it aint over till 14 days after colonization.  Green molds can appear late in the game.

Forrester- what kind of yield are u getting from your blocks made with the hot water tek; and how long incubation?

Quote:

Mushmitch said:
I've been experimenting with lime too and I feel its promising to use on grain/coffee/sawdust without PCing, it just needs to be dialed in..
I have a test grain spawn and rye seed jars that have yet to develop any mould or anything after a week only boiled in lime water.. so I think its gonna work:)




Im very excited see your results; keep your thread updated :cool:


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19376212 - 01/06/14 10:10 AM (9 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Aleon said:
Forrester- what kind of yield are u getting from your blocks made with the hot water tek; and how long incubation?





I don't grow commercially so I've never bothered weighing, or if I did I've forgotten.  They usually incubate for 2 - 2.5 months.  Yield seemed decent enough for my purposes but I've never supplemented to compare so I'm not much help there :shrug:


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Forrester]
    #19399653 - 01/10/14 05:19 PM (9 months, 8 days ago)

Aleon, how goes it mon?
I did a pure sawdust bag.
24 hour soak in lime and spawned half Q rye seed.
Been 2 days and growth looks good. .ill post a pic in a few days..


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Mushmitch]
    #19402655 - 01/11/14 09:28 AM (9 months, 7 days ago)

So far everything looks fine.  The first experiment im pretty sure i added too much lime (THANKS SOLARITY).  Its growing but super slow.  I did 3 other batches of this; 1 jumbo shiitake, 1 3782 shiitake, and blue oyster.  The blue oyster is already further along than the OG test.  SO im blaming it on too much lime.  I found that 1.5-2g/L lime was right (i used 2g/L) to get PH 12.5. I'll update OP. Also i have not been "soaking" the pellets in lime; im hydrating them with lime water in 10 minutes.  No excess lime water to create a disposal hazard. I also got some chick-a-dee doo doo bagged chicken manure that i would like to experiment using as a supplement once i get some pure lime sawdust runs in.


Edited by Aleon (01/11/14 09:37 AM)


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19403043 - 01/11/14 12:12 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

Hi Aleon

What is the magnesium content of your lime?

thanks


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: solumvita]
    #19403270 - 01/11/14 01:05 PM (9 months, 7 days ago)

I did another batch on 1/6. Again, and sorry for not really being within the parameters of the OP experiment, but here's what I have. The main goal of my wanting to supplement pellets using a high lime concentration, possibly peroxide if it helps me push the upper limits of supplementation, is for my grow your own kits for the up coming farmers market. I had a bag of spawn in the fridge dated 2/12 of last year. Its FF's pohu strain. So I decided to go very heavy just to use it up. Again not what I would do in my commercial scale. Here's the latest recipe used.

Oak pellets    3.1#
warm water      5#
F.G. 35% H2O2  1/4 C.
Lime          .4oz
Chx compost    5oz
Gypsum          .4oz
Spawn          4#



Both nearly ready to fruit.
Next batch im going to drop the H2O2 and use a regular spawn amount.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: chefinainteasy]
    #19416184 - 01/14/14 09:24 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

The 1/3/2014 experiment has colonized successfully. The other experiments are looking very good (i highly doubt contams will come in) especially the Jumbo shiitake; which is growing faster with less spawn than the oysters.

Now that i know contams are not the problem; what about speed and yield?  These are what i will be closely recording.  Well speed is already slower as this oyster strain (213) always goes into fruiting at 8-10 days Inc.on sup. sawdust,  But i am willing to be patient and also experiment with supplements to increase speed and yields if they are lacking initially.


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Re: Pasteurizing Sawdust with Lime [Re: Aleon]
    #19416216 - 01/14/14 09:36 AM (9 months, 4 days ago)

Thanks for the update Aleon.  Although few will respond, many are watching and learning from these experiments.  We are on the forefront of breaking new ground here and I for one am excited by the results!


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