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InvisibleViolet
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V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics * 21
    #19167498 - 11/20/13 08:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

HI! :wave:

Here is a presentation of the seed&plastic tek but more for simplicity as was requested. I may add extra photos over time.
This thread will contain the details of how to set-up, fruit, and water straight-grain cakes for optimal fruiting.


The person who inspired my version of this methodology developed hers growing high up in a populated 'hotel' apartment building, outside the U.S.
Her limitations were availability, weight, fragility, portability, discretion.  Her equipment consisted entirely of still-air boxes, AA910 pressure cookers, can-style tank propane burners, ziplocs and other useful plastics and totes to put them in, small yet powerful single material substrates and small efficient chip LEDs. She focused first on having cultures that could adapt to yielding so highly off of pure grains with the water being fed gradually to the sub instead of colonized in it.  She became able to drain top yields off of grain with way fewer steps and materials and with material/energy use and waste small enough to not draw any attention, even when she boomed her grows up to large scale.

The one concession I can make to the forum's few yet outspoken detractors to this v-tek is that it pays off way way more for people willing to get into the isolation of ideal cultures, although even growing multi-spore this method, in particular the Pods version, is leaps and bounds *easier* than just about any full grow-out method known on the forum, so the payoff doesn't only appear in yield.

And personally I don't see adopting methodologies of superfluous labor and expense as a worthwhile price to pay to avoid culturing, especially since methods that ask for that much of a time/money/labor/learning investment also tend to encourage people to culture anyway...

Here is my "Seed Petri" TEK, an optional yet integral part of this Violet Methodology.  If you want this tek to truly flourish, you absolutely must be on the lookout for the cultures that make the most of its substrates and style.



These screw-top containers are recycling code 5 which holds up perfectly under hi-pressure temperature (as long as the cooker doesn't run out of water)
Requiring no modification, they are sterilized with the lids slightly cracked loose. Do not attempt to sterilize them while sealed!

On the left, a sealed container. Seal them while removing from the sterilizer until and after inoculation.
On the right, a container with the lid very loose but still threaded in to where it does not come off when lifted. This is the loosest it should be for sterilization, but it's more loose than it should be for anything except maybe growing grains invitro.
In the middle, how I suggest keeping lids cracked - for sterilization or when one's project comes to involve a bit of gas exchange.


Any grain substrate from grass seed to corn works but not all are the same. My preference is brown rice followed by grass seed; here is how I prepare those.

Grass seed and brown rice are most ideal for this technique.  Millet (birdseed is mostly millet) works nicely as well, followed by milo (the other common ingredient in birdseed.  Rye, oats, and wheat all work also but possibly to a lesser strength or effect.  Corn can be made to function but is definitely the least ideal grain to use.



Containers are loaded halfway with about one cup (~8oz volume) of prepared grains.

Sterilization times are short and can vary greatly. My AA910 10qt cooker holds 6 containers. On my (powerful) electric stove I sterilize for ~50 min at 15PSI.

The goal is to ensure that the containers on top in the cooker are fully sterilized. The bottom containers nearest the heat source will become sterile before the ones above do. The higher & more that containers are loaded inside a cooker, as well as the more heavily the containers are loaded, the longer time at pressure is required. Also the size of a cooker and type of burner make a difference; larger cookers take a bit more time to saturate with heat, and electric burners only apply heat by conduction from the bottom so the sides of the cooker lose heat instead of being surrounded by the gas burner's runoff heat.

I suggest you start with sterilizing at least 60 minutes, perhaps a few more on electric stoves.


In a still-air/glove box or sterile laminar airflow, inoculate the sterilized containers with a few agar wedges, colonized grains from another container, or liquid inoculant made like this or from shaking sterile water in poms.

I prefer agar wedge for a few containers especially when testing new isolate cultures, and I vastly prefer grain-to-grain inoculation using grass seed for expanding to a full grow of a proven excellent isolate culture.

Time until fully colonized depends on speed of culture and number/spread of inoc points.
This also comes to effect the amount of consolidation time the cakes need.

Grain-to-grain inoculation results in few or many inoculation points depending on the grain. For instance, rye may have 10 grains in a spoonful where grass seed may have 50. This is one of the many reasons I use grass seed – a single container G2Gs 5x as much as rye.  I have known grass seed inoculations to consistently colonize containers in 3-5 days when in proper temperatures.

An agar inoculation with 3 little wedges would have only 3 growth sites but a little shaking trick can help with this and speed up colonization from agar.  After inoculating and sealing the containers are shaken around roughly just like breaking-up & spreading mycelium but even moreso. This rubs mycelium off of the agar wedges amongst the many grains (less or more with different grains; I've seen it the most by far with grass seed). The mycelium will first recover and climb off of the agar wedges since it's already established on the agar's nutrition, but after a few days for the rubbed-off mycelium to dig into local grains it will pop up in many spots and quickly colonize the remaining majority of grains.

Here agar wedge inoculations colonize brown rice:

With grain-to-grain inoc or heavily-shaken agar wedge inoc I almost always see full colonization by a week. Results will vary by inoc and culture.

I've done hundreds of these and full colonization has always been reached without the need for any gas exchange.
Perhaps with an agar wedge inoc of a not-so-speedy or multi-spore culture you could experience stalling before full colonization. If this occurs, only a slight crack of the lid is necessary to allow excess CO2 to be pushed out without compromising the rest of colonization.


CONSOLIDATION
For optimal results!:
Consolidate brown rice for no fewer than 7 days (given the above considerations), then colonize the casing layer within the sealed container before initiating fruiting.
Consolidate grass seed at least a few days to knit together the colonization, then colonize the casing layer within the sealed container before initiating fruiting.


The period of consolidation will vary by a few factors but we can begin the consideration based on 7 days from fully-colonized.
The reason for consolidating is more even pinning in a single simultaneous 'flush' as well as solid potency opportunity.

The explanation:

These cakes are not ready to fruit immediately after full colonization is reached, regardless of grain choice. Some more time is needed for the mycelium to network more densely and consolidate themselves and their substrate into a single solid cake that's thoroughly ready to pin evenly.

When I colonize a grain container quickly, such as with well-spread grass seed inoc or an agar wedge inoc where I rubbed the mycelium all over the grain (both colonize quickly for me, even as soon as 3-4 days for grass seed inoc),  I consider it needing plenty of consolidation time.  This is because I have found that whereas the mycelium was quickly able to spread over the grains it hasn't had very much time to consume it.

When a container is colonized "slowly" (the culture could be fast at doing so), such as gently setting an agar wedge to grow out over all the grains from that point, then I think there is less consolidation time called for.  Much of the mycelium has been on the grains for quite some time, even though the last colonized bit has only recently been colonized, the different type of colonization (thick ropey white) catches up relatively quickly with the rest of the sub.
If the fruiting surface itself has been colonized for quite some time, then there may be little need to consolidate at all to fruit, only for potency if desired.

See here, the colonizing edge of the mycelium is still running, but the inner area of the 'circle' has become beyond ready to fruit for some time:


Temperature is a minor effect also - the cooler, the longer necessary. 66°F may need a day longer than 71°F for the same reason as below...

Another less minor thing that effects this:
Fast cultures.
My culturing tech has given me cultures that colonize ravenously fast, and fruit with a haste as well.
These cultures grow, and thus metabolize of course, more quickly than the others I've found.
I like to think of this this way:  If they colonize in 5 days what another culture might colonize in 7, it's reasonable to suppose that they have done the consolidation work in 5 days that the other might in 7.
I still typically would consolidate for that 7... I just consider the speed of the culture as making those consolidation times more effective for fruiting readiness and solidified potency.


The BIGGEST thing that effects consolidation is your grain choice; some substrates call for consolidation more or less than others.

Mycelium consumes tiny grass seed very quickly.  It needs very little consolidation to become plenty ready to fruit, and in my methods it doesn't even require a casing layer for a couple reasons.
Other larger and more dense grains do require consolidation, not just to fruit optimally or have solidified potency, but perhaps even to fruit at all.  If exposed to conditions early, they might still have to delay until they're ready, like what RR says of unconsolidated PF cakes in "Let's Grow Mushrooms".

I make sure to consolidate my brown rice containers for quite some time, as it certainly needs plenty and benefits from lots,
but grass seed is raring to go by the time its casing layer is fully colonized under the tight lid so I case grass seed just a day or so after colonized and consider the casing colonization as the sub's consolidation as well.

Edited by Violet (12/19/17 09:21 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Casing tek • quick, easy, great, efficient casing layers [Re: Violet] * 1
    #19167510 - 11/20/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

CASING TEK

Casing layers are an excellent tool for hobby mycology when called for.  Reasons to use casing layers are to provide a low-nutrition pinning environment for grows that do not have one, as this has turned out to be a major need for Cubensis, as well as to provide moisture retention for the grains in fruiting chamber environments and an ideal humidity micro-climate for the formation of knots which will become pins.

Always case ANY straight-grain substrate when it will be exposed to a fruiting chamber environment. Any good fruiting chamber has an amount of air and/or air exchange that stops any straight-grain from having an ideal fruiting surface and likely will cause the grain to dry out.
Always case brown rice substrates, even when growing invitro with brown rice.
Grass seed invitro is the only time this tek can (and should) be done without a casing layer.  Grass seed has no problem fruiting nicely uncased in invitro conditions!


I learned this casing layer preparation from Anne Halonium and absolutely love it. It makes for a perfect casing and is a real snap!
Sifted potting soil is ideal by far.
Peat moss with 3-8% garden lime and mixes like "Jiffy Mix" work as well.

Sift sticks and rocks that may be in your material.


Add water past field capacity, carefully bringing the soil to mud. Make it wet enough that a small puddle of dirty water always falls from the mix.

This prep will involve lots of water evaporating from the mix during heat treatment.
Interestingly enough, even with this much water, you're more likely to end up with too dry a material with your first experiments! Water up and have faith!

Load the casing and even the little puddle of dirty water into a microwaveable plastic container.
Place into the microwave with the container's lid loose, partially covering the container, to prevent splatter but allow steam to escape.

Microwave long enough to "boil" for up to 2 minutes, typically 9-11 minutes depending on the microwave and thickness of casing pile.
Leave the microwave off but closed for several minutes then place the lid on the container before removing it.

24-28 hours later repeat the microwave process again.
It's ready to use when cool!

Crumble the casing evenly onto the freshly-opened cakes with clean hands. It's fluffy and very moist in a perfect way. In particular, gently push casing up against the sides of the container!

(Any 'sand' condensed at the bottom is discarded)

Mycelium will almost always colonize the casing layer a bit before pinning so they can be set in the fruiting chamber to do this or you can have them spend part of this casing colonization time under a loosely cracked lid.


If you ensured that casing is against the sides of the container, they almost certainly will pin on top even if the genetics are so picky towards forming in the 100%RH microclimates sidepins prefer.

Edited by Violet (01/26/15 11:22 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Fruiting grain cakes in containers [Re: Violet] * 2
    #19167513 - 11/20/13 08:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

FRUITING

They can fruit in practically any chamber. Shotgun terrariums, hi-humidity "greenhouses" or tents, old monotubs or unmodified totes work great and involve their own subtleties to work with this technique. I've even seen some other solutions used such as fishtanks, large water bottles, plastic storage baggies...


As a suggestion for beginners, those wanting to only fruit a number of containers, or for that odd container out of the chamber or that's ready at a time all by itelf, it's very easy to fruit these containers individually with something like soda bottles!
I cut them at the widest point near the bottom where they'll just barely go over the edge of the container and sit over the threads.

Here's one uncased container giving its 1st and 2nd flushes:





The fruiting condition is steadily high humidity (~90-100% RH, 99-100%RH uncased) and adequate air exchange.

These two factors effect each other but such small cakes tend to favor conditions of controlled air exchange in favor of retained moisture.


Adequate air exchange is typically the problem for mycology grows, but since these substrates are small it is much easier to reach. Watering the cakes instead of re-colonizing additional substrate means that there is not 2-10x the breathing mycelium due to colonized watermass.

The air requirement of a container will vary by how rich the air is with O2 and how heavy with CO2. Different buildings and places build up CO2 differently, varying with inhabitants. Also different genetics will respond more or less healthily with CO2 buildup.

As a referential minimum, if the local air is exchanged well a container may only require 2 air exchanges per day with 12-18 inches of overhead air (considering using a tote, which is also not air-tight).  Experiment and observe the behavior of your fruits to see if they are receiving enough air. Yields can be reduced if oxygen is the weakest link in the metabolic supply.


Moisture is by far the greater focus and concern but is very easy to handle.
Casing layers provide ideal pinning microclimates and cause substrates to retain moisture very well (whereas grains otherwise easily lose their moisture to evaporation, requiring 100% humidity uncased).
Bottom-watering allows the cake to draw up water, keeping a flow of evaporation from the substrate that keeps the fruiting surface at 100% even in 85-96%RH conditions, and helping keep the chamber's humidity up.
Misting moisture droplets on the sides and bottom of the chamber, not only on the casing layers (but in fact less on the casing layers), provides a great surface area of moisture evaporation all over the chamber. Casing layers combined with this is enough for size-to-fit chambers where the cakes have 12-18" overhead air.


Learning how little often it is required to exchange air in chambers of these cakes not only can minimize effort and energy but moisture loss from the terrarium, particularly the cakes, keeping the conditions ideal for the formation of sensitive tiny pins!
As the fruits are growing large, fresh air exchanges can be increased (more mycelium, more CO2) and misting a bit less gentle. This is why there is sometimes a difference referred to in "pinning" and "cropping" conditions.


The "sweet spot" of overlapping retained humidity and adequate air exchange is extremely small with exposed straight grains.  I suggest exposed grain growing Only for invitro, and I've even come to love casing for invitro fruiting!

Said "sweet spot" is Much wider when implementing a casing layer, and gives the mycelium a low-nutrition fruiting surface to appease their apparent desire to fruit away from their nutrition source.


With practice, some ideal culturing, and mid-flush watering,  it's not difficult to reach results like these...


Edited by Violet (12/19/17 09:33 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Bottom-watering [Re: Violet] * 2
    #19167516 - 11/20/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Mushrooms are 90% water and substrates lose notable amounts of moisture, so practically speaking you will not yield more mushrooms than you provide water for.  The main difference in grow techniques is how one chooses to provide that water.


It's possible to roughly determine energy expenditure by how much water is sterilized or pasteurized, and for how long.
Water has the highest specific heat so heat-treating more water leads to greatly increased energy cost.  Heat-treating glass and/or large material masses also increases this expenditure without increasing output whatsoever.

With bulk substrate techniques, about 3/4 of one's yield comes in the first flush so at least 3/4 of the water used for mushrooms is heat-treated; all of it if only 1 big flush is taken.
With this grow technique, just about 1/3 of one's yield comes in the first flush so much less of the water had to be heat-treated.

Those combined factors along with a few others make this grow tek the most efficient way to grow I have seen, by a wide margin.
My projects used to leave a noteworthy mark on my electric payments; not anymore.



BOTTOM-WATERING is a solution to balance the water-to-nutrition ratio (can be thought of conceptually as the likes of 1:10 respectively) by gradually feeding water to the grain cake as they draw moisture up into mushrooms.

Fully-colonized substrates can be hydrated with tap water, and mycelium easily move water across substrates to growing mushrooms, so there is no need for any extra steps to provide our grows with the amount of water they require for optimum yield (and no water goes wasted).


It is truly as simple as it sounds.
Once the cake has shrunk enough due to the first flush to pull away from the sides of the container, add water to come up to at least half way up the side of the cake depending on its height.  If there is very little space on the sides, a small amount of water may come almost up to the casing level, which is okay.

The most important time to water is when pins are starting to grow.

You will see it gradually disappear into the cake and ultimately into mushrooms.


If a cake has not drawn up lingering water by 3-4 days after a flush is harvested I often remove that water until the next round of pins is growing since this is usually a sign that the cake has enough water for now and they will not use more until it is being moved to larger forming fruits.


Why does bottom-watering work, and so well?
Colonized sub can hold more water than uncolonized sub material; once it's colonized it can soak it up like a sponge and be just fine. Thus all water does not have to be present in the substrate at colonization.
Dunks are obviously not a sterile procedure. Immediately after "birthing" PF cakes they go straight to a dunk!, because fully-colonized sub is extremely resistant to contamination. Once grains are fully colonized & consolidated you can definitely use non-sterile water without risk.

Therefore, and since mycelium can absorb and migrate moisture:  All water does not have to be present in the substrate for fruiting, either.

Since these cakes are small they have plenty of area to take-in moisture and nowhere that is too far from that moisture as to become anhydrous.


Here are six excellent containers of multi-spore AA+ by Anne:




The cakes can and will flush, flush, flush, & flush again!
They will not stop until contaminating or until they have had enough water to expend their nutrition fruiting.

Just a few photos to give an idea. Will add some more as I can take them.
Some of my first flushes with multi-spore...


3rd flushes from some ok clones...


4th/5th flushes, perhaps even beyond!


Cakes become smushy soggy piles of spent mycelium a fraction of their original size in 4-7 flushes.
Let them keep going and keep the water coming!

Edited by Violet (03/17/15 11:18 PM)

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InvisibleViolet
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Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet] * 1
    #19167522 - 11/20/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That sums up the Tek itself!

This last part will be to descriptively and mathematically outline the possibilities of this style grow and just a couple of the many reasons I choose it over others.
For explanations of other reasons which are not based on biological efficiency numbers, such as energy expenditure, see the original presentation here.


There are a few who evidently think for some reason that the use of bulk substrates somehow increases the yield potential of grains, and thus that my straight-grain grows cannot possibly yield as much as those grains would in bulk substrates.

To a certain extent I would agree that a person who doesn't know the simplicity of conditions that straight-grains require will see a limited output from grains alone.  There's no doubt when under the same conditions that "bulk" growers use that a certain amount of grain mixed in with wet mass will yield more than the poor half-dry unwatered straight grains.
If mishandled or even not well handled it's quite possible that learners will have no better results from a half-pint grain cake than they would a half-pint PF cake with a third of the grain ingredient.

However I utterly refute the unsupportable idea that a failure to achieve full yield from grains somehow means that the grains do not have available their full potential when handled and watered properly.
How could that possibly change that I get my results?

When given everything they need as any good grower should intend and learn to do,
there's no logical reason that grains will have more nutritive potential in one method than another.


Biological Efficiency (BE) & Yield

Clearly not all substrates are equal. "Bulk" substrates (coir, manure, vermiculite, etc.) can be pasteurized as treatment but grains must be sterilized due to their much greater nutritional value.
Amongst the two main categories of "grains" or "bulks" there are differences as well. Manure can be somewhat nutritious whereas vermiculite has effectively near nothing of value.  Coir can be hydrated and heat-treated for use simultaneously with "bucket tek" but a more nutritious sub like manure is unlikely to have success with the same approach.
Any difference in grains (as far as mycelium are concerned) has been a bit harder to quantify since most seldom grow with grains alone much less with controlled variables, but I assert that those differences are much more clear in a technique such as mine and I have seen the spectrum of differences widen dramatically.
If someone tells you there are not real and effective differences amongst substrates for a given species/culture, question what low-resolution perception of the matter they have taken which makes them truly believe such a nonsensical thing.

Grains are the heart of all our grows. They carry the yield. Other "bulk" substrates reduce biological efficiency as a means of applying the hydration necessary for yield.


Biological efficiency of a yield is calculated by the fresh weight harvest over dry substrate weight used.

100 grams fresh yield
100 grams dry substrate        = 100% BE

(Since mushrooms are typically ±90% water, we can figure BE with dry harvest weights by multiplying the harvest or the BE by 10)

2lbs/907g of grain (rice in my case) makes 12-13 cups, 3+ quarts, 5-6 quart jars the way we load them for our use.  (Grass seed makes more)
Say we colonize those with an isolate culture and 'spawn' them to a brick's worth of coir in a monotub, yielding a nice 2724 grams wet (9.6oz dry).
Calculating BE of grains only, we get 300% BE.  However including the 1.5lb/680g coir brick we get 172% (verm would lower it even further).
Now, if we calculate BE based on only the coir, we get 400%.

So the question is:  Which is more believable? 400% BE from low-nutrient coir :lmafo: or 300% from high-nutrient grain? :levitate:

Of course neither is solely responsible for the yield occurring. ~3000mL prepped grains do not contain over 3000mL of water, nowhere close. The bulk substrate provides the lion's share of the required moisture while the grains carry the majority of nutrition.

Bulk substrate techniques seemed to be an improvement on straight-grain grows because it allowed more yield to come of the same grains, since no adequate way of providing adequate moisture to straight grains was discovered/devised.  Bulk sub thus improved yield, but not yield potential.
So providing water to grains became a mycological procedure with heat-treating additional substrates and a new colonization stage, instead of just a watering procedure!  Imagine if we thus tricked ourselves into thinking we had to transfer plants to new wet soil every time they needed more water!


Bottom-watering small subs makes it possible to provide that grain nutrition with water over time – without additional substrate, energy, clean work, or colonization, without requiring a specific type fruiting chamber with tons of air exchange and moisture loss, and without losing an entire project due to a single contamination.


This allows us to use our BE-per-grain-only calculations for supposing at potential yields with this grow technique.

Since 907g of dry rice expands to 12-13 cups prepared sub and my containers are loaded with 1 cup, that means my fruiting containers use 70-75 grams of brown rice.

75g brown rice  X  300% BE  =  225 wet grams  =  ~22 dry grams.  Per container.


This is not just a theoretical supposition. The above yield-per-container figure does indeed match my experience with the tek when using good isolates, particularly those taken with [url=Biological efficiency of a yield is calculated by the fresh weight harvest over dry substrate weight used.  100 grams fresh yield 100 grams dry substrate        = 100% BE  (Since mushrooms are typically ±90% water, we can figure BE with dry harvest weights by multiplying the harvest or the BE by 10)]my culturing method[/url].


I feel that using straight undiluted grain with bottom-watering makes reaching top efficiency more possible to the practiced grower with than with a "bulk" hydration technique, for the following known reasons combined that otherwise reduce "bulk" BE capability:
  • The colony is not destroyed in the break-up prior to "spawning".
  • The mycelium does not use the grain's nutrition to fuel hyper-expansion (2 - 10 times the mycelium) over low-nutrient sub (0 - 1/4th the value).
  • Mycelium itself has very noteworthy nutritional needs. From the beginning of colonization until fruiting is finished, nutrition is used to sustain the mycelium colony. 10-30% of the mycelium total means 10-30% of the nutrition used for that.
  • Not any handling, much less any mishandling. Although mycelium obviously survives "births" and/or "dunks" & carries on fruiting, bottom-watering totally avoids shocking resets and the harsh flattening of surface mycelium. It continues its life-cycle at its own pace without any "recovery" intervals necessary.
  • Great success rate. This was very important to me! I have far fewer losses since my success relies only on my easy & excellent sterile tech, not turning that sterile tech to the wind while crossing my fingers hoping the best for all my eggs in one basket, uncolonized substrate in unsterile environs. A single loss to contamination is a tiny loss instead of the whole project.  These grain cakes expend much more slowly and stay healthy far longer as well, meaning that I typically toss cakes from expenditure before contams set in!


"Bulk" substrate techniques accept the above disadvantages, so that they are at lesser risk of drying despite usually being the source of fruiting chamber humidity (noob defense), and so that mycelium will have (in advance) enough moisture to flush-out most of their nutrition in a single flush... And yet still depending on the nutrition-to-water ratio ("spawn" ratio) more water may nonetheless be required to finish fruiting from remaining nutrition in later flushes.

_____________________________________________________________


When I finished switching to this technique instead of using bulk substrates, Big parts of my process went entirely unused; the biggest sub, the biggest water, the biggest energy, the biggest clean work, the biggest failure risk juncture, the biggest garbage, and the biggest monetary expense. Yet my big output stayed consistent and a step-up in quality has been clear.  I cannot imagine a grower with eyes-open somehow missing this happen right in front of them.  Give it a good try!

Thanks for reading!

Edited by Violet (01/23/15 09:55 AM)

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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19167534 - 11/20/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:girlofdisapproval: kidding...only kidding lol


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor

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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: cronicr]
    #19167626 - 11/20/13 09:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
:girlofdisapproval: kidding...only kidding lol




I'm not.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Mush4Brains] * 1
    #19167634 - 11/20/13 09:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

then y you here?
v thats a fuck ton of work u put in their and nce pics:headbang3:


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor

Edited by cronicr (11/20/13 09:21 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19167655 - 11/20/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks chron!
I intend to add some even nicer pics next round of something to photo.
Culture tech thread was a way bigger thing for me, I'm super proud of that. It's the core of the grow.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: cronicr]
    #19167695 - 11/20/13 09:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Very nice tek thanks for some new info I will be using the next few days for casing my two monotubs of PE!


--------------------
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OfflineBigGreenMat
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: DannyDGAF]
    #19167863 - 11/20/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks violet subbed.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19167950 - 11/20/13 10:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think that this is the way I would grow cubes myself, but a great write up nonetheless. My PP5 Mex A is getting some good stones in it and I am planning on doing the whole bottom watering, though I'm not sure about the whole microwaved casing, maybe when I do the full tek complete with RGS. Would this work for pans? I am planning a lot of experiments with them soon, and I did find that PP5 worked better than glass for pan spawn regardless.

Anyway an attractive and well written write up all around :thumbup: Just don't mention anne's name too loudly :lol:

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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19167962 - 11/20/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

C'mon, I told you.. Name it V-TEK.

Ricer's ... get it.. get it.. Ricers?
Grain?

V-Tek??

Nvm....
:unwanted:


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Offlinefractaldill
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19171464 - 11/21/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i love it

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19171949 - 11/21/13 07:20 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
C'mon, I told you.. Name it V-TEK.
Ricer's ... get it.. get it.. Ricers?
Grain?
V-Tek??



Ya I definitely get it, and it's hilarious
Very meta.



I really still hope we can come up with a fitting name. "Container tek" doesn't quite seem right, but it's the best I've thought of so far


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19172075 - 11/21/13 07:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not following your tek but I do have a container of wbs fruiting. Inspired by your grass seed and other things. I had popped it out and put in a crappy sgfc. Humidity issue had me misting a couple times a day for about 2 days. I put it back into the square ziplok and into a trash can mini mono. First flush is done. It has never truly fit back in. its actually suspended above the bottom of the container because its to "wide". I don't really have any questions just wandering what you thought.

Another good right up. Ill have to look through your threads again and get more details. Got a spawned cotainer of bulk sub to fruit but Ill be trying your grass seed method once I get the details of your fruiting chamber down and compare it to my low needs and low RH.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Smeagol]
    #19172384 - 11/21/13 08:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You really can't argue with results, but I was always told that grains with no other nutrient substrates produce tiny fruits? Again, you can't deny that this tek works and the pictures prove it, I'm not putting down the tek at all, I'm just confused.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield *DELETED* [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19172446 - 11/21/13 08:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by BigGreenMat

Reason for deletion: Wrong reply to person


Edited by BigGreenMat (11/21/13 08:22 PM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19172464 - 11/21/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

BigGreenMat said:
I know you are a big fan of Ryegrass seed and Brown Rice, but have you tried this tek with Wild Bird Seed?  I only ask because the prices on Wild Bird Seed are ridiculously low (as low as $.35 per pound).  Meanwhile the best I could do for Ryegrass would be around $1 a pound and a bit more than that for Brown Rice.



I have never done this tek so I can't say for sure, but grains are usually pretty interchangeable in other teks. Ones they're all colonized it's just some grain held together with mycelium anyways.


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19172530 - 11/21/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

JMcDoogle said:
C'mon, I told you.. Name it V-TEK.
Ricer's ... get it.. get it.. Ricers?
Grain?
V-Tek??



Ya I definitely get it, and it's hilarious
Very meta.



I really still hope we can come up with a fitting name. "Container tek" doesn't quite seem right, but it's the best I've thought of so far




*Chants*

V-TEK,V-TEK,V-TEK ...

WHAT DO YOU WANT

V-TEK!

HOW YA GANNA DO IT?

V-TEK!

WHOS THE BEST?

V-TEK!

WANT SOME KOOL-AID?

V-TEK!


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19172582 - 11/21/13 08:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Why is it you emphasized screw on type lids? Plenty of people have done plastic/tupperware with snap on lids without problems.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: ForgottenFreshness]
    #19172654 - 11/21/13 08:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I am not sure why Violet did, but I can tell you that the ability to control exposure with screw caps is much greater than pop tops.  Far less likelihood of error and unwanted open air exchange.  There is a reason we use screw caps in lab settings when working in a sterile environment (in my experience).

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19172691 - 11/21/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I know you are a big fan of Ryegrass seed and Brown Rice, but have you tried this tek with Wild Bird Seed?  I only ask because the prices on Wild Bird Seed are ridiculously low (as low as $.35 per pound).  Meanwhile the best I could do for Ryegrass would be around $1 a pound and  for Organic Brown Rice like $2 a pound.  Do you use Organic or regular brown rice in your tek?

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19172772 - 11/21/13 09:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't understand how these are great results, seem kind of average to me. Someone please help me understand? I am open minded and definitely a noob but these seem like average of less results for similar amounts of sub in PF tek / SFGC conditions.......getting bigger fruits and more mushies spawning to bulk.......appreciate any insight and not going to debate anyone on this. Thanks


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: SynKyd]
    #19172775 - 11/21/13 09:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SinysterKyd said:
I don't understand how these are great results, seem kind of average to me. Someone please help me understand? I am open minded and definitely a noob but these seem like average of less results for similar amounts of sub in PF tek / SFGC conditions.......getting bigger fruits and more mushies spawning to bulk.......appreciate any insight and not going to debate anyone on this. Thanks







V-TEK!

V-TEK!

V-TEK!


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19172829 - 11/21/13 10:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the idea is that by not shaking in order to spawn, the mycelium network is healthier and stronger. You also remove a step (spawning) which potentially leads to fruits faster.

IMO this tek would have more benefits with species other than cubes. Cubes are weeds and can tolerant the shake, whereas many other species do not. This is why most people who don't like the tek prefer to spawn to bulk because you don't need to worry about things like bottom watering, and all the maintenance that this tek requires. The expense of RGS and Rice is another aspect that turns people off whereas WBS is cheap as dirt.

I can see potential for this with things like p Mexicana, but for cubes it seems like a lot of extra work.
:2cents:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19172845 - 11/21/13 10:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the idea is that by not shaking in order to spawn, the mycelium network is healthier and stronger. You also remove a step (spawning) which potentially leads to fruits faster.

IMO this tek would have more benefits with species other than cubes. Cubes are weeds and can tolerant the shake, whereas many other species do not. This is why most people who don't like the tek prefer to spawn to bulk because you don't need to worry about things like bottom watering, and all the maintenance that this tek requires. The expense of RGS and Rice is another aspect that turns people off whereas WBS is cheap as dirt.

I can see potential for this with things like p Mexicana, but for cubes it seems like a lot of extra work.
:2cents:




Good points, I am hoping to try this tek with my Albino PE and Panaeolus.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19172861 - 11/21/13 10:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I doubt it would really make much difference with APE, but it would probably work well with pans.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: SynKyd]
    #19173042 - 11/21/13 11:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ForgottenFreshness said:
Why is it you emphasized screw on type lids? Plenty of people have done plastic/tupperware with snap on lids without problems.



There are multiple reasons for screw-lid containers.  BigGreenMat hit on some.

The first main reason is that the lids are no-hassle for this kind of use.
They sit on securely for pressure-cooking whereas pop-top lids sit loosely. Out of the cooker you have to be VERY careful with the pop-top lids until inoculating.
Screw-top lids are a cinch to sterilize and handle with no more contam chance than anything else.

The second main reason is easy gas exchange, if a use calls for it. The pop lids are either ON or OFF, but the screw-top lids can be very slightly loosened with a small turn, allowing for excess CO2 to be pushed out without making an easy path for contams.

The bottom of lid's threads sit on the top of container's threads, lifting the seal of the lid off of the container's rim.  This is what allows for both of those

And in general these containers are simply ideal for this work.  After having tried several things to this exact ends, these style containers are clearly the way to go.
I use them not only for fruiting but also for agar dishes, "master jars", sterile printing, several other culturing uses in addition to the daily uses of all sorts of containers.
One simply cannot do all these things the same with pop-lid containers.


Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:

BigGreenMat said:
I know you are a big fan of Ryegrass seed and Brown Rice, but have you tried this tek with Wild Bird Seed?  I only ask because the prices on Wild Bird Seed are ridiculously low (as low as $.35 per pound).  Meanwhile the best I could do for Ryegrass would be around $1 a pound and a bit more than that for Brown Rice.



I have never done this tek so I can't say for sure, but grains are usually pretty interchangeable in other teks. Ones they're all colonized it's just some grain held together with mycelium anyways.



Yes I have tried other grains.  The tek is done exactly the same, no difference.

To be honest, my opinion of my results is not quite as good with other grains as with GS and BR.
Particularly I haven't seen top yields with rye at all.  No bias against rye at all, it was my main grain and I loved my source and the grain itself.  Birdseed results are a bit better, probably because of Millet, my #3 to RG and BR.

A grow technique like this allows one to see operating differences with various grains.
I used to think otherwise but now nobody can convince me there aren't many or noteworthy differences.

I love grass seed. Falling in love with brown rice too.


Quote:

SinysterKyd said:
I don't understand how these are great results, seem kind of average to me. Someone please help me understand? I am open minded and definitely a noob but these seem like average of less results for similar amounts of sub in PF tek / SFGC conditions.......getting bigger fruits and more mushies spawning to bulk.......appreciate any insight and not going to debate anyone on this. Thanks



Is 20-30 grams per PF cake average?  No no, far from it, 10 on a PF cake is great.

The work is incredibly reduced from other grow techs, and the grains yield the same as they would in bulk substrate, perhaps better with ideal culturing and grow procedure.
Measuring yields against the amount of grain that went into the grow, I get better yields now than I did "spawning" to "bulk" especially considering my much higher success rate.

We're all already doing the sterile work of inoculating our sterilized grains in containers of some sort.
This tek reduces almost the entire grow procedure to just those otherwise beginning steps.

With proper sterile tech, success is incredibly high.
Contaminants are easily isolated and the rest of the grow pans out nicely.
Requires no additional substrates, or colonization of uncolonized substrate in untreated environs.
No destruction of colonies.  Energy expenditure is reduced to a fraction.

Any fruiting chamber can work.
I even sometimes fit 2-liter soda bottles with the bottoms cut off onto the containers as individual chambers!

Personally I dislike getting my yield in huge mushrooms.  As long as the end yield is the same I much prefer it come in many easy-to-dry medium fruits.  But as it happens my top-yielding strains have always been clusters of mediums; some giants always come in 2nd.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (11/21/13 11:24 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19173063 - 11/21/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
This is why most people who don't like the tek prefer to spawn to bulk because you don't need to worry about things like bottom watering, and all the maintenance that this tek requires.
for cubes it seems like a lot of extra work.



Are you kidding?  Spoken like someone who hasn't done it
Pouring a tad of water a few times per container is the least maintenance I've ever paid to a grow, the easiest grow style I've ever experienced.

Remember: just a little watering entirely replaces bulk sub acquisition, prep, pasteurization, spawn break-up, bulk inoculation and mixing, and the disposing of so much spent substrate. Also eliminates the greatest failure risk junctures.

YOUR tek requires "all the maintenance"!    (Lol "No U")

It's almost a neglect tek!  With one major exception... Harvest can be like nearly constant

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
The expense of RGS and Rice is another aspect that turns people off whereas WBS is cheap as dirt.



Birseed works for this tek.
Honestly grain price is no excuse. I can find grass seed plenty cheap. I can also find it expensive.
Rice is commonly $.60-.90 per pound around here.  Rye in bulk is $.50/lb, no cheaper anywhere. Wheat $.42/lb.  I've not found birdseed under $.40
And yet to me $.80-per-pound for RGS still seems like the best buy, BY A LONG SHOT, especially as a "master" inoculant grain where it's 5x as effective as other grains.

As said above, a grow tech like this offers clear visual of the differences amongst grains.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
IMO this tek would have more benefits with species other than cubes.



There's no doubt this method will work quite wonderfully with many species that can fruit from straight-grains, and sub mods for even more species.
However you are clearly missing how well this tek works for Cubensis.  It's truly designed for Cubensis' nearly unique efficiency and hardiness on a grain-only substrate.  It's yields on such materials bests all other species, and this tek stretches its limits even further.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19173075 - 11/21/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Are you kidding?  Spoken like someone who hasn't done it
Pouring a tad of water a few times per container is the least maintenance I've ever paid to a grow, the easiest grow style I've ever experienced.



Fact is monotubs are even easier....no bottom watering period.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet] * 1
    #19173092 - 11/21/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Violet, keep up the good work! Don't mind the haters!



I have one question.

When you microwave as seen in this photo:

How do you keep the water from boiling up and out of the container and all over your microwave? Why can't you just put the lid on but not tighten it?


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My very own funnies thread: LINKY

Edited by Moorning Due (11/21/13 11:38 PM)

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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: PussyFart]
    #19173229 - 11/22/13 12:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Are you kidding?  Spoken like someone who hasn't done it
Pouring a tad of water a few times per container is the least maintenance I've ever paid to a grow, the easiest grow style I've ever experienced.



Fact is monotubs are even easier....no bottom watering period.




:uppercut:

Took the words from my fingers!


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19173723 - 11/22/13 05:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

fact is, v-tek grows dont all end in trich JM.
its not easier to decontaminate a bulk.

jm , you only espouses bulks, cuz its the only skill ya know.
therefore, your experience level, means little on this thread.

this thread is for peeps that want more effective and controlled crops, and have advanced past bulk teks.

our grow will not improve, if we imitate you.
we do not want to imitate your bulks.
thats the entire point.


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19173739 - 11/22/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

anne halonium said:
fact is, v-tek grows dont all end in trich JM.
its not easier to decontaminate a bulk.

jm , you only espouses bulks, cuz its the only skill ya know.
therefore, your experience level, means little on this thread.

this thread is for peeps that want more effective and controlled crops, and have advanced past bulk teks.

our grow will not improve, if we imitate you.
we do not want to imitate your bulks.
thats the entire point.




Hey now,

I've got more single pp5s and mini-cakes, invitro and
agar going than I do bulks currently!

TAKE IT BACK.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19173743 - 11/22/13 05:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oh, and you said V-TEK



Clearly a winner.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19173749 - 11/22/13 06:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

and yet ,ya fail to mention that , and espouse bulks.

tell ya what,
keep up the v -tek work.
gain a wider skill set, and well talk.

ya make me wonder JM, but i havent given up hope on ya yet.


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OfflineJMcDoogle
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19173757 - 11/22/13 06:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

anne halonium said:
and yet ,ya fail to mention that , and espouse bulks.

tell ya what,
keep up the v -tek work.
gain a wider skill set, and well talk.

ya make me wonder JM, but i havent given up hope on ya yet.




Good, I was afraid you were going to go all
were-jaguar on me after a night of amanita muscaria


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19173768 - 11/22/13 06:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Are you kidding?  Spoken like someone who hasn't done it
Pouring a tad of water a few times per container is the least maintenance I've ever paid to a grow, the easiest grow style I've ever experienced.



Fact is monotubs are even easier....no bottom watering period.




NO THEY ARE NOT EASIER.

Read again; I said the easiest grow style I've ever experienced, & I've experienced a LOT of monotubs.

Quote:

Violet said:
Remember: just a little watering entirely replaces bulk sub acquisition, prep, pasteurization, spawn break-up, bulk inoculation and mixing, and the disposing of so much spent substrate. Also eliminates the greatest failure risk junctures.


We're all already doing the sterile work of inoculating our sterilized grains in containers of some sort.
This tek reduces almost the entire grow procedure to just those otherwise beginning steps.




Seriously.  Try convincing me that bottom-watering is more difficult than even a Single of the many "bulk sub" growing steps.  Try your hardest.
You'll have a tough time, seeing as I've done a Lot of both, and know the facts first-hand.

One would have to be an idiot to think the extra "bulk sub" steps are easier than watering, especially considering you Still have to water bulk subs somehow after 1st flush, just like this tek.


--------------------
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19173778 - 11/22/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Are you kidding?  Spoken like someone who hasn't done it
Pouring a tad of water a few times per container is the least maintenance I've ever paid to a grow, the easiest grow style I've ever experienced.



Fact is monotubs are even easier....no bottom watering period.




NO THEY ARE NOT EASIER.



:whateveryousayfreak:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet] * 1
    #19173787 - 11/22/13 06:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

peeps claim monotubs are "easier."
its certainly easy enough for noobs,
hence its popularity.
id suggest the proper term is " trichier"


bulkers never see the whole picture violet,
with them its about cost and ease first and only.

they dont consider many things,
because,its all about getting that flush before it trichs.
contams are assumed, and sustainability isnt even a rational thought.
its a whole different paradigm.
they have no clue they can cycle clean effecient, light, fast and power friendly crops, cheap and easy over time in sustainable ways.
its alien to many.
in their world its "pack shit in buckets and hope for shrooms faster than trich"

as peeps grasp the utility of v-tek on so many levels,
alot of the myths will subside.

i dont expect any hard core bulkers to convert methods.
many stalk these threads to dissuade peeps from attempting these types of grows.
if peeps see the whole picture, bulks lose appeal.
if bulks lost favor among the masses , egos would be in flames.

and expect big flames fer sure,
no steamed stack of shit sacks ,
can sandbag out the new age grow.
biological efficiency, always wins out.


as always great stuff violet.



--------------------
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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 06:43 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium] * 1
    #19173794 - 11/22/13 06:33 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Fact is monotubs are even easier....no bottom watering period.



NO THEY ARE NOT EASIER.

Remember: just a little watering entirely replaces bulk sub acquisition, prep, pasteurization, spawn break-up, bulk inoculation and mixing, and the disposing of so much spent substrate. Also eliminates the greatest failure risk junctures.

We're all already doing the sterile work of inoculating our sterilized grains in containers of some sort.
This tek reduces almost the entire grow procedure to just those otherwise beginning steps.




:whateveryousayfreak:



Noted, a graemlin instead of a point.
Probably wise to save face instead of making the impossible argument that sub acquisition, prep, treatment, inoc/colonizing, poly-tuning, dunking, and disposal  is less difficult than pouring a tad of water.

Quote:

Moorning Due said:
When you microwave as seen in this photo:

How do you keep the water from boiling up and out of the container and all over your microwave? Why can't you just put the lid on but not tighten it?



There's hardly any standing water, just the bit that falls out of the muddy soil when properly prepped.
You could try having an unscrewed lid on if you like, but remember this:  That casing tek's heat treatment method involves a lot of water loss in the microwave process, which is why it starts as a mud.  With the lid on it could still be runny after the treatments.
Try it with the lid off! Don't be afraid! I do it all the time

Quote:

anne halonium said:
bulkers never see the whole picture violet,
with them its about cost and ease first and only.



If that were really true, they'd more easily see this tek's strengths and appeals


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19173803 - 11/22/13 06:39 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19173847 - 11/22/13 07:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:scumbagman:

I was just curious Anne, are you from Central America?

Thx!


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: JMcDoogle]
    #19173858 - 11/22/13 07:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

no.
but my PM's are turned on again,
for that type of inquiry.

now back to our regularly scheduled program.............


--------------------
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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 07:10 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19174128 - 11/22/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I like the idea what I don't like is how much it would cost to fill a greenhouse with these ziplock pint jars lol. Might try something similar in flat quart or half gallon size deli dishes rated pp5 though. It would be the same idea just larger containers.

Edited by ForgottenFreshness (11/22/13 09:00 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: ForgottenFreshness]
    #19174153 - 11/22/13 09:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

its not the same idea, larger containers take longer to PC.
and ya lose surface area efficiency.

because of the production and speed value,
you dont have to fill a green house.
thats the point.

you guys are so used to bulk yields......
its a different paradigm,
v tekkers grow less, get more.

you wonder why the v tekkers have missionary zeal?
we might know something about bio effeciency.


v tekkers dont need massive tub ops to get serious crops.
half the work, double the output. 1/4 the sub weight. and trich is rare.


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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 09:07 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19174420 - 11/22/13 10:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If I wasn't working with species that required bulk i'd give this a shot, I do like the pp5s there great and almost free for me, sometimes bulk is a requirement though. Next cube run for sure, my gh,s are bored lol


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19174450 - 11/22/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

double the output.




Not just superior to bulk... double the yield. Wow, that is quite the claim.

Would be awesome to see a friendly side-by-side between a "turd farmer/tub grower" TC and a "V-tekker" to see if V-tekkers claims of double the yield hold up.

Such a thread would get lots of views I'm sure.

Not in anyway trying to stir the pot, just genuinely interested in seeing if V-tek can truly double the yield of bulk/tub grows.

Edited by InTheBiggun (11/22/13 10:38 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: InTheBiggun]
    #19174559 - 11/22/13 11:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry if i missed this, but what is the substrate used in the OP photos? It looks like whole brown rice.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: InTheBiggun]
    #19174622 - 11/22/13 11:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

InTheBiggun said:
Quote:

double the output.



just genuinely interested in seeing if V-tek can truly double the yield of bulk/tub grows.




youve known about this tek for years ,
it was originally shown on your other alleged forum.

it was even demo-ed with exotics,
you know, the CNM mexicanas , that no one can grow cept,
me, capt future , elf, az, and sorta stonesun.

over 70 prints went out.
v tek methods, have prevailed to date.

come to think of it, others have demo-ed it on your " other forum"
with both cubes and pans i believe.

we use a fraction of the sub,
and get multi flushes,
and we rarely end in trich.

should be obvious at face value.
multi flushes always beat a one trich pony sub tub.

your informed biggums,
develop grow skills and test for your self.
ive known ya for some time,
your kidding if your suggesting your your the arbiter
of a grow ya dont have the skills to even do.

fact is, the most of the v tekkers, used to be bulkers.
its why they are v tekkers now.
its the new age, and they expect more.


--------------------
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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 11:51 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19174661 - 11/22/13 12:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

anne halonium said:
its not the same idea, larger containers take longer to PC.
and ya lose surface area efficiency.

because of the production and speed value,
you dont have to fill a green house.
thats the point.

you guys are so used to bulk yields......
its a different paradigm,
v tekkers grow less, get more.

you wonder why the v tekkers have missionary zeal?
we might know something about bio effeciency.


v tekkers dont need massive tub ops to get serious crops.
half the work, double the output. 1/4 the sub weight. and trich is rare.





Sorry :smile:

Edited by ForgottenFreshness (12/04/13 11:55 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: ForgottenFreshness]
    #19174821 - 11/22/13 01:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

For me the v tek is not appealing due to 3 simple reasons. Cost, Environment, and space.

Cost is a big one. RGS is very expensive in my neck of the woods, more than 4 times the price of rye berries. I spawn to bulk and my costs go down. Even if I was using WBS it would still cost alot more to get the same amount of sub. Maybe yield is more than double per pound of sub, but that's not enough to make it viable for me.

Second is environment. In the area I live, even running a large central humidification system, RH is still around 15% in my house. Bulk trays do much better in a SGFC for me than cakes or cased grains. If I spawn that bulk into a mono then I don't have to worry about misting or rehydrating my perlite every 3 days. When you work 70 hr weeks like I often do, that ability to set and forget is priceless.

Third is space. I can get a lot more sub into x amount of space with a monotub than I can with all those pp5 containers. Even with smaller tubs my space is still used more efficiently than it is with SGFC's. The fact I can stack monos makes a huge space savings.

I for one am not saying that v tek is unsuitable for everyone. But I don't think it will work well for me. Everyone has specific challenges due to environment. Mine made me think that growing was too hard when I first started with cakes. That is why bulk saved my grows. As far as v tek goes, if I actually get some time off in the future, I do plan to give it a large scale go. But until then, my situation is far better served with bulk and monotubs, at least for cubensis.

Edit: as for the claims of trich, I rarely see it before my 4th flush. I usually aim for 4-5 flushes with my bulk tubs anyway.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #19175028 - 11/22/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Pasty I totally understand and respect your grow choices, and am not trying to convince you otherwise or anything,
I respond as such only to address the facts of what we're discussing relative to the tek.
As you say that you haven't any experience with the tek, I encourage you to further investigate how much your determinations truly apply, because as someone with lots of experience with it I feel your statements about the tek are indicative of only a partial understanding.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
For me the v tek is not appealing due to 3 simple reasons. Cost, Environment, and space.

Cost is a big one. RGS is very expensive in my neck of the woods, more than 4 times the price of rye berries. I spawn to bulk and my costs go down. Even if I was using WBS it would still cost alot more to get the same amount of sub. Maybe yield is more than double per pound of sub, but that's not enough to make it viable for me.



How is this in any way a proper reason for "v tek" to not appeal?  There's no basis for this in the tek.
I already responded to this above.  Any grain works.

The statement, "Even if I was using WBS it would still cost alot more to get the same amount of sub."
What's the logic for that?
If you pay a fixed price for a certain amount of substrate, why would it cost any more put into different containers?

Besides, grain price-per-pound is not that big of a factor.  As said with grass seed, 1 pound has 5x the inoculation power as 1 pound of rye. Being 2x as expensive as rye still makes it the better buy for such a use.

Also, grass seed is a very light grain; one would be surprised how much more one gets in the same pound for the same dollar!


Further, different grains can perform differently which is seen with teks like this one where they're the only materials, and there are many related factors to consider. For instance:

If (Grain A) gets 120% the yield of (Grain B) but costs 125% as much as (Grain B) it can seem at first as if (Grain B) is the better buy anyway.
However it's important to remember that (Grain B) will also require 120% as many containers to reach the same yield, and thus 120% the sterilization energy, as well as 120% of the space, so on so forth.

There are more facets as well, such as how quickly grains sterilize.  The larger the grain and/or more watermass held, the longer sterilization is required or contam rates will go up if not.


Also not everyone can get rye etc. especially in bulk for a decent price.
Likewise not everyone has a good cover for buying/owning rye/wheat/birdseed. As I've said elsewhere: Face it, you're not making bread or feeding birds much less horses, whereas grass seed "is for the yard" and rice clearly for dinner!


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Second is environment. In the area I live, even running a large central humidification system, RH is still around 15% in my house. Bulk trays do much better in a SGFC for me than cakes or cased grains. If I spawn that bulk into a mono then I don't have to worry about misting or rehydrating my perlite every 3 days. When you work 70 hr weeks like I often do, that ability to set and forget is priceless.



For fruiting chamber setups that are difficult to maintain moisture, I can see this being a thing.

However there are MANY FC options with this style grow, some which retain 100%RH practically guaranteed with no consideration for ambient RH, so honestly that also is No good reason.

I also address that above;  THIS IS ALMOST A NEGLECT TEK
With the exception of regular harvest and very occasional watering, it's nearly as set-and-forget as it gets, especially considering the lead-up!

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Third is space. I can get a lot more sub into x amount of space with a monotub than I can with all those pp5 containers. Even with smaller tubs my space is still used more efficiently than it is with SGFC's. The fact I can stack monos makes a huge space savings.




Straight-up false.      (Except SGFCs, they are a poor example, very ineffective space-wise)

I easily fit significantly more containers on shelf space per a given area than I can fit in monos within that exact same area.
When I had my GH up it held ~300 containers in the same space that 8 of common 106qt tubs would hold ~180.

Even still using tote FCs, I get as much yield (for instance with 18 containers in a 106qt mono) than I would with a large bulk cake instead.
Either way I look at it, if done right this tek yields as much in less space, thus more in the same space.

Were it that they tied in yield, the many other advantages of this tek (like contam isolation which is related to this very point) break the tie.
Considering it all epistemologically, it breaks the tie by a long shot.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (11/22/13 02:35 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19176118 - 11/22/13 07:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Don't get melty on me Violet, I actually like to think of myself as mostly impartial in this debate :lol: I do however have a few questions that your responses have raised for me.

Quote:

Violet said:
The statement, "Even if I was using WBS it would still cost alot more to get the same amount of sub."
What's the logic for that?
If you pay a fixed price for a certain amount of substrate, why would it cost any more put into different containers?




Are you inferring that the bulk sub is merely a means of providing water thus it should not be counted as part of the volume of sub? If I spawn 6 quarts grain to 18 quarts sub, that is going to be a lot cheaper that 24 quarts of grain would be. Obviously grain is the bigger factor of course for yield, but if the comparison between your yield claims for the tek exclude the sub that has me curious. If that truly is your statement, then it would be easier to run a conclusive side by side to compare how much difference there truly is.

Quote:

Violet said:
However there are MANY FC options with this style grow, some which retain 100%RH practically guaranteed with no consideration for ambient RH, so honestly that also is No good reason.




So if I wanted to re-purpose a mono to hold the containers, that would be considered "following the tek"?

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Third is space. I can get a lot more sub into x amount of space with a monotub than I can with all those pp5 containers. Even with smaller tubs my space is still used more efficiently than it is with SGFC's. The fact I can stack monos makes a huge space savings.




Straight-up false.      (Except SGFCs, they are a poor example, very ineffective space-wise)

I easily fit significantly more containers on shelf space per a given area than I can fit in monos within that exact same area.
When I had my GH up it held ~300 containers in the same space that 8 of common 106qt tubs would hold ~180.

Even still using tote FCs, I get as much yield (for instance with 18 containers in a 106qt mono) than I would with a large bulk cake instead.
Either way I look at it, if done right this tek yields as much in less space, thus more in the same space.




Still not sure about this comment. For GH users maybe, but that's not an option for many people. I do want to get one going, but when I do, it won't be for growing cubes. This in my mind leaves totes, (the standard for FC be it a mono or SGFC) which come in different shapes and sizes to be sure, however I don't see how you can maximize the square footage as efficiently with the round containers in the square mono. You will get more sub in a monotub with bulk than you could with pp5 containers. Its the whole "round peg in a square hole quandary" or is there another method of FC construction that I am simply unaware of? Of course there is always the option of shorter tubs, but you would want to limit your genetics to those disposed to producing fatasses (don't get me wrong tho, I loves me some fatass mushies). Not a flaw in the tek as I see it, but worth knowing.

Regardless, you seem very confident that my conditions should have no part to play in the success of the tek. While most of my noobish experience is from the trichy bulk, I shall muster what little skills I have in order to move the timetable up and try V tek to grow like a pro for real (anne sure makes it sound like ya gotta be a master mycologist to pull this off, so my confidence is a little shaky :tongue:). Just so I can compare it to my current results, in a head to head type scenario, what would be a fair comparison? If V tek is supposed to double my yield as compared to bulk, I need to know ratios. If I wanted to do V tek with lets say 4 quarts (which I believe would be 8 of the pp5 containers), then how much spawn and bulk sub would be comparable to that if I was to spawn at a ratio of 1:2? Of course everything would be done with a monoculture on agar, and G2G would be the means of expansion.

I really hope to get this started within the next two weeks. That should be enough time for me to prepare as I want to do this tek correctly and I will post my results, no matter what they may be. If your claims are correct, and if the method is not as much of a pain as I suspect, I might even stop "bulking". I am a curious cat and now need to see for myself if this is worth the fuss :wink:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19176183 - 11/22/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"anne sure makes it sound like ya gotta be a master mycologist to pull this off,"

not at all, just sane , competent, and have a PC.
tek is engineered to be less complex, not more complex.
ability to read, and not live in your moms basement, is a plus.


dont over think it,
just do it.
violet is trying to liberate you from odious bulk tub of trichs.

show some courage!

:rabble:


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Edited by anne halonium (11/22/13 07:29 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19176257 - 11/22/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

LOL, I was just pointing out the inconsistent message that your rhetoric usually delivers. If I truly wanted to make an anti bulk message catch on, I would promote it as "noob friendly" and to "leave the bulk for the pros" :lol: Your usual message of "noob buckets" and "pro grain grows" kinda conveys the opposite. Might want to rethink that delivery a bit :wink:

Quote:

anne halonium said:
dont over think it,
just do it.
violet is trying to liberate you from odious bulk tub of trichs.




I plan to, though I really have never had the trich issues you seem to have. Maybe I will get some during my side by side run and it will convert my noob ass :lmafo:

All joking aside, I will give this a shot. Been meaning to for a while, already got most of what I need. Even got the RGS, but for the purpose of a side by side I might just do rye berries. Just need to know some ratios so as to conduct a fair comparison. Don't want the bulk attempt to get too blown away :wink:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19176459 - 11/22/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Is 20-30 grams per PF cake average?  No no, far from it, 10 on a PF cake is great.


to be perfectly fair about that statement violet cakes are 2/3's verm and half the size


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19176595 - 11/22/13 09:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I just ordered some PP5 containers and I'll be starting this tek monday night.  I may go ahead and use my quart glass jars to start some rye seed with noc.  It's my first grow, so I'll be the perfect test case for "anyone can do it".  Thanks for the info!

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr] * 1
    #19176636 - 11/22/13 09:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

violet is trying to liberate you from odious bulk tub of trichs.




God but I just love mixing vermiculite and shit and shredded coco husk in a bucket. It gets me all hot and bothered and stuff and then I just have to jerk off while thinking about shit buckets! Oh god I'll brb...

That's great and all that you feel that way. But what if we enjoy the process of working with our hands?  Mixing the ingredients up.  I love having giant tubs of mushrooms.

You see it as 'trying to liberate' us. 

But we've never been in bondage.

You see mushroom cultivation as a competition Anne.  That's why you piss people off.  We ENJOY the method we use and the odious work that's involved.

OH MY GOD.  That's why you see it that way.  It's because you've never had to work for anything in your life because you've always had money.  You have no appreciation for any kind of labor so you couldn't possibly understand the joy of actually putting effort into what you do.  You see making monotubs as 'odious' because you detest any kind of work, anything that may make your hands dirty.

Some of us actually enjoy that work.  I love the smell of coconut coir being pasteurized. I love the feeling in my hand while mixing it.  I love the exercise in patience of watching my grains slowly colonize.  Taking their time, being in no hurry.  Reminding me daily to not be in such a hurry in life.  I love the way the damn tub LOOKS when it's done fruiting. Each one is like a giant canvas and when it's finished it looks amazing.  Like a forest...  I love that and every step in the process that brought me to that forest.

The way you sell it, you make it sound like your new age is going to take away all the things I love about growing my mushrooms and turn it into a competition.  You always berate others for 'cheapening' the hobby that everyone deserves to enjoy even without a pressure cooker.

You reduce my love to an argument of numbers on paper. "This is cheaper, this is faster, this yields more per cubic meter."

You're the one who's cheapening this hobby and this community by telling people that the aspects they love about it are 'wrong' or 'undeserving' or 'inferior.'

That's the last thing we're going to need in the new age.

P.S.  Violet, I think your tek looks awesome.  I just like my big tub-o-mushrooms.  I also think Anne's ravings have done more to hurt your good name than open people up to your methods.  Can't wait to see what else you come up with.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19176734 - 11/22/13 09:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm trying the Violet Tek for my first ever grow.... what Fruiting Chamber would be recommended for someone who doesn't yet have ANY FC.  My guess is putting the containers in a mono tub with some holes and poly to allow for FAE?  I'm thinking that seems like the easiest method for a first timer?  Any advice would be appreciated.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MMagg]
    #19176929 - 11/22/13 11:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MMagg said:
I'm trying the Violet Tek for my first ever grow.... what Fruiting Chamber would be recommended for someone who doesn't yet have ANY FC.  My guess is putting the containers in a mono tub with some holes and poly to allow for FAE?  I'm thinking that seems like the easiest method for a first timer?  Any advice would be appreciated.



For most assured success I suggest first-timers try individual chambers for a few containers first, some cased and some uncased.
I'll describe this a bit more in depth below under the photo.

My second suggestion is, honestly, ultrasonic humidifiers. Combined with a small fan to stir the ultrasonic mist into the air of a well-done makeshift chamber (i.e. "greenhouse), ultrasonics both mist the casings incredibly gently and keep the humidity to perfect near-saturation.  Find a way (like with modified common timers) to run them 1 minute every 30-60 minutes

Big totes for many containers works nicely once one understands the dynamic. But until then they can cause people to have dry tops, difficulty pinning due to surface mycelium drying, only side-pins, the likes. Can turn out poorly when beginners are combined with multi-spore, no casing layers, or holes in the tote.

The goal is to supply adequate air for full-fruiting and retaining moisture, losing only what is necessary to return their environment to 100%RH.

I would love to see some beginners try starting out with some liter invitro containers for ease and success.

By "individual chambers" I meant something the likes of this:

This is the second flush of a cake I've been sortof neglecting.  I only remembered to give it water once, and I find that the yield is in grams only what I watered in milliliters.  This culture can definitely do more, but it's already impressed me.

A 2-liter soda bottle (Coca-cola in this case) was cut at its widest spot where it just barely fits snugly over the threads of the container.
It's perfect!  Keeps humidity ideally while still having enough air in the chamber to only require a few exchanges per day.

With the small lid totally unscrewed, just sitting on the top, I only exchange the air once a day (by simply removing the bottle and waving it for one second)... and sometimes I forget a day.

There are several ways one can make this manner of chamber happen easily and for free.

Combined with a casing, considering done right all-around, this is a nearly fool-proof way to grow.  Sure is well easier than PFtek and yield is far better.


Quote:

cronicr said:
Is 20-30 grams per PF cake average?  No no, far from it, 10 on a PF cake is great.

to be perfectly fair about that statement violet cakes are 2/3's verm and half the size



That's partly true chronic, and it's related to part of my coming response to one of Pasty's questions. You'll see how this supports my statements.

However PF cakes are Not "half the size"; remember the pint containers are half-loaded, so this tek is also half-pint cakes.

1/3 of PF cakes are rice, so truly the yield of a PF cake can be considered being from JUST the brown rice flour, and not the verm.
So when you consider how much yield PF tek gets from its small amount of grain ingredient, then scale up per the greater amount of grain ingredient in these cakes instead, it shouldn't be so hard to believe that ~2.5 times the grain of a PF cake (hydration-expanded grain takes more volume than flour mixed onto wet verm) gets the same proportion in yield.

In fact, since the surface area of the grains is not increased into flour which is quickly "eaten" and there is not 3 times the amount of mycelium living on the same grain nutrition expanded over vermiculite, it's easy to see why my straight-grain container cakes get a slightly higher Biological Efficiency than PF cakes.

Thus it's quite sensible that these cakes get x3 the yield of just under x3 the grain substrate.
That's really not so spectacular, you see?!?! Nothing really THAT new about the yield ability of grain!
The only thing that's "new" is the simple arrangement of material and procedure to easily make it happen!


Until the bottom-watering of small grain substrates,  No straight-grain grow fully achieved the yield-per-grain that grains are capable of supporting since the proper proportion of water requirements were not met.
In this exact same way, the power of grains is fully realized in just the same way as it is with "bulk" cakes as well!


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Edited by Violet (11/23/13 12:12 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19176947 - 11/22/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Derp derp derp lol, I like the pop bottle you should try some enoki like that


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19177124 - 11/23/13 12:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Pasty the quotes in this post are kinda re-ordered to suit the flow of my answers

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If V tek is supposed to double my yield as compared to bulk,



Gotta nip this sort of thing in the bud!
I don't claim this, and Anne's statement up there doesn't translate to that like InTheBigguns seemed to conclude

The "double" thing is more of an epistemological statement.
Considering less than half of the Energy and Work, with the same amount of grain, No massive bulk substrates, fewer contams (I get practically NO contams), and the same yield-per-grain,  this tek can be said to produce double the yield per one's all-inclusive input.  That's certainly my experience with it.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Violet said:
The statement, "Even if I was using WBS it would still cost alot more to get the same amount of sub."
What's the logic for that?
If you pay a fixed price for a certain amount of substrate, why would it cost any more put into different containers?



Are you inferring that the bulk sub is merely a means of providing water thus it should not be counted as part of the volume of sub? If I spawn 6 quarts grain to 18 quarts sub, that is going to be a lot cheaper that 24 quarts of grain would be. Obviously grain is the bigger factor of course for yield, but if the comparison between your yield claims for the tek exclude the sub that has me curious. If that truly is your statement, then it would be easier to run a conclusive side by side to compare how much difference there truly is.



I think I see what you're thinking. You're considering mixing free substrates with purchased ones reducing the cost of your substrate.

But it doesn't do that.  You pay for grains what you pay for grains, Period.  Using bulk substrate doesn't make your grains less expensive.

Since grains carry the yield, and are the costly ingredient, it is the yield-per-grain value that is important.

It's extremely easy to figure out a yield-per-grain value for any given grow. PFtek and Vtek in particular are directly yield-per-grain values (as long as you don't count verm which has no nutrition)
It's not nearly as easy to figure out what bulk is capable of because colonizing and fruiting on bulk substrate still involves grains (mostly requires grains really, thus why nearly every grow is based around grains, especially largely successful grows).
But it's fair to say bulk is capable of little to nothing on its own since attempts to colonize pure "bulks" without nutritive inoc source almost always stall/contam/don't fruit/fruit very little.



Point is, when I calculate my yield-per-grain of this grow tek and bulk sub grows I get about the same value on average.


That means bulk substrate isn't really increasing one's yields
, just making them possible in that tek's fashion.  That's not to say it doesn't have nutritional value, just that the extra expenditures of bulk teks procedures and of a much larger mycelium colony end up effectively balancing that out.

Sometimes I see higher on average more commonly with this tek when done outright.



Soon I'll have a section on Biological Efficiency posted at the end of the tek, which will discuss this a bit more thoroughly.  I already have it, I'm just waiting to add it. This topic is great leading to that.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Just so I can compare it to my current results, in a head to head type scenario, what would be a fair comparison?
If I wanted to do V tek with lets say 4 quarts (which I believe would be 8 of the pp5 containers), then how much spawn and bulk sub would be comparable to that if I was to spawn at a ratio of 1:2?



The ideal comparison would be the Same Exact amount of the Same prepared grain for each grow.

For the "bulk" side of the test, mixing the grains with hydrated vermiculite is the bulk-style hydration method. It's essentially whole-grain PF cakes, which is sortof what bulk grows come down to already plus a bit of bulk sub pasteurizably-low nutrition to account for some loss.

With that experiment one can directly see how the colonizing expansion over watermass effects yields.

IMPORTANT NOTE:  To get it right, you really have to understand and execute the vtek water dynamic and execute the cake's full yield! If you don't, then the experiment is one-sided!

To explain... Before I fully learned this tek, well before posting,  I tried some of them with just a bit of verm mixed in to make it a solid dense cake.  I also had been attempting "birthing" the cakes out of containers and re-using containers sooner.  In order to get the vermy cakes to yield, they needed some dunking.  However they appeared to do significantly better than the non-verm cakes... because the non-verm cakes lost their water so easily and didn't have 100%RH at the substrate's surface!
However once I had ALL cakes stay in containers the whole time, and got conditions ideal... the vermy cakes yielded NO better, and were even a little bit more difficult to water.

Using increasingly large proportions of "bulk" substrate reduces the amount of grain in the substrate's volume.
A half-pint cake of BRF&verm or grain&coir simply is not capable of as much yield as a half-pint cake of straight-grain when all are sufficiently handled & watered.
PFtek is the obvious example of this, as I pointed out to chronicr

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Violet said:
However there are MANY FC options with this style grow, some which retain 100%RH practically guaranteed with no consideration for ambient RH



So if I wanted to re-purpose a mono to hold the containers, that would be considered "following the tek"?

Regardless, you seem very confident that my conditions should have no part to play in the success of the tek.



I'm definitely confident, given that you find which of the many ways to fruit these containers adequately ignores/overrides the difficulty of your condition.

"Invitro" containers, or coke-bottle-chambers like shown in the post above, entirely ignore ambient humidity once the humidity is risen after an air exchange.

Totes might not be quite so well-off, especially without casing,  for the reasons mentioned at the top of the post before this one.
Since bulk substrate more easily provides mass humidity without apparent/problematic surface dehydration, the same conditions will not suit.

Again as said above, my recommendation for learning second to individual containment is ultrasonic humidifiers (+fan).


Whether an experienced grower or a beginner, give a few rounds of containers the consideration of being for learnings sake.
Fruiting straight-grain is definitely different, but it would be silly to think that it's more difficult to learn the ways of one than other.


You got this.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I don't see how you can maximize the square footage as efficiently with the round containers in the square mono. You will get more sub in a monotub with bulk than you could with pp5 containers. Its the whole "round peg in a square hole quandary"



More sub, you're correct.
However I'm sure by now you're starting to see the real relevant matter: You may fit more substrate mix in a tote that way, but the real question is, how much grain do you have in that tote?

12 containers will have right about the same amount of grain as 5 quart jars the way we load them.
That gets the same (or a bit more) grain power in a tote as would a mono block.
So the tote generally contains the same yield potential - as long as it's fully realized by the simplicity of bottom-watering instead of the many steps of bulk subs.

The additional volume taken by bulk substrate, which containers do not take due to "round peg / square hole", is watermass which is added over time via bottom-watering instead.  This not only reduces the amount of breathing mycelium in a chamber but considerably increases the ratio of air to substrate per the area a chamber takes up, without reducing the yield power in the tote and perhaps even increasing it some.
Monotubs don't have any more grain in a chamber than this would.  The watermass bulk sub in the tote doesn't really contribute to yield so it honestly isn't necessary or helpful to consider it as being "more substrate" in the chamber.


So in the end, just like yield this can be said to balance out or better, with the additional other advantages of the tek!


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Edited by Violet (11/23/13 09:52 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19177917 - 11/23/13 07:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the advice.  I have a closet in an unused room that I think I could turn into a GH. I've got an oil filled electric heater and a nice 9 gallon per day humidifier.  I suppose I'd just need a daylight bulb and a timer to turn it into a GH?  Any recommendations or advice on that tek for the violet tek?

I'm prepping grain today.... I have 6 B+ Cube spore syringes.  I read your remarks on spore syringe noc to RGS.... Not sure I'm fully understanding of the best workflow to go from spore to colonization.  I assume you do a couple transfers to get down to an isolated point?  Any help on that specific part of the tek is appreciated.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MMagg]
    #19178553 - 11/23/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MMagg said:
Thanks for the advice.  I have a closet in an unused room that I think I could turn into a GH. I've got an oil filled electric heater and a nice 9 gallon per day humidifier.  I suppose I'd just need a daylight bulb and a timer to turn it into a GH?  Any recommendations or advice on that tek for the violet tek?



Yes, some...
First advice is: Don't start out with such a chamber!  Get a feel for the basic straight-grain/straight-cased-grain dynamic first!
More about this below, but I'll elaborate on making an ultrasonic humidifier chamber.

Personally I would suggest turning to the ultrasonic automated chamber as a later option after attempting the simplicity of contained grows in whatever fashion.


These small cakes only need, in fact they sortof require, tame limited air exchange.  This makes designing for gas exchange very simple, as based on the chamber's size and fill with substrates it's quite likely that opening the doors to the chamber for some time makes for an adequate exchange.  Briefly fanning out can only help.  Having adequate fresh air while still easily building & retaining humidity helps reduce contams.

Don't try automating air exchange at first, maybe even ever.  If you ever try it after learning the dynamic then use small fans like video card fans which don't heavily disturb and flash-dry the air.  Always use short-interval timers for brief bursts between long breaks, such as easily modifying one of these.


My suggestion for the ultrasonic humidifier is having the fan blow at an upwards angle into where the stream flows out. Place it in such a fashion that the billowing mist stirs amongst the whole chamber.  This may take some experimenting with containers loaded into the chamber.
Have them operate together on the same one of the same kind of short-interval timer (but a different one from one's air exchange if you are doing that).

It's easiest and works wonderfully when using 2 matching shelves of any size set on and wrapped in plastic, with the ultrasonic and fan billowing the air into the air between and amongst the shelves.



Quote:

MMagg said:
Another question, would the 2 litre bottles over the plastic container system work as good as any other fruiting chamber?  If so, why wouldn't you always use it?  Perhaps because you need to create FAE manually by removing and fanning it for a second? 



From what I've been experiencing, yes the individual bottle chambers work as well as any other chamber and a bit better than some.
Yes, the main reason one might always not use it is taking all the individual lids off of single containers when the same moment would handle 8-18.
I love it more than big chambers though and use it for the here-and-there tests and the odd-man-out/straggler/between-times containers.

Quote:

MMagg said:
How about removing the cap from the 2 liter and using poly?  wouldn't that remove the need for fanning and make it a neglect tek?



I suspect it would restrict the airflow as much as the loose lid or perhaps more, except a small puff of poly.
I can see fine-tuning this with a small puff of poly working pretty well and almost achieving total neglect.
However this chamber scenario would have such still air that CO2 would build up down in it with not as much pushed out the top as would make it ideal.  It would be totally neglect for a species such as Enoki, as chronic so happened to mention, but Cubensis needs at least some fresh air.
Depending on your chamber and how you do it, you may get some fuzzy stems but personally I don't care about that and neither will you if you keep FAE low.  It still fully fruits with quality fruits and is very low-maintenance.

Perhaps a few tiny holes near the bottom of the bottle would control a tiny amount of air exchange to not drop humidity faster than the moisture within can raise it so it stays at 100%, while allowing total neglect besides occasional watering.


Quote:

MMagg said:
I'm prepping grain today.... I have 6 B+ Cube spore syringes.  I read your remarks on spore syringe noc to RGS.... Not sure I'm fully understanding of the best workflow to go from spore to colonization.  I assume you do a couple transfers to get down to an isolated point?  Any help on that specific part of the tek is appreciated.



Always use a still-air box, glove box, or sterile laminar airflow with these unmodified containers.

You can do a multi-spore grow with a syringe by lifting one side of a lid and squirting some spores. Don't shake after a squirt!

I don't like to fully grow-out multispore, it goes lamely for me.  Instead I use very lightly loaded containers as "grain petris" shown in the culture tech thread, and THIS is what I suggest using spore solution on, for culturing.

However a beginner that is not yet working on agar won't be doing this and yet likely will still be using spore solution... so squirting under a lifted lid will do them well enough.


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Edited by Violet (11/23/13 11:30 AM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19178800 - 11/23/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Brilliant advice... thanks for taking the time to help me.

I'm considering the poly in the top/ small pokes covered with filter sections in the bottom of the 2 liter as a full neglect tek.  I'll use 12 containers... 4 different versions so I can compare them with 3 containers each using 4 different methods. 

1.  your tek with no holes/poly and fanned as you suggest
2.  very loose poly in top with no holes in bottom - full neglect
3.  #2 with one small hole near container height and filter taped
4.  #3 with TWO holes covered with filter tape

I'll do another 12 containers with your exact tek and fanning for production. 

Those will be done multi spore.... at the same time, i'll start a few containers as your culture tek advises and will isolate for the NEXT time.... at which point I should have good info on which of the 4 teks gets me best results as a full neglect.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MMagg]
    #19180013 - 11/23/13 06:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I tend to fare to the simple.  Here's betting that an otherwise "unmodified" coke bottle top with No lid could do well in the right place.
My suggestion for a 'full neglect' mod is a hole somewhere around 3/4 inch to 1 inch with medium poly stuffing, right above the edge of the container, with the bottle's lid Off entirely. In a moving air, dry, or dry moving air environment both holes might should have at least medium poly.
Control the airflow, but allow it gently and moderately.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19212547 - 12/01/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Okay so I did me some G2G with your pp5 containers last night. A mix of mostly rye with a little millet. Gotta few questions/things I want to be sure of going forward. I want to do this right :thumbup:

First, I see in your writeup that there is pretty much no need for a GE filter on the lids, and you suggest that loosening them is not necessary unless stalling occurs. That being said at what point would you consider them stalled? Two days no apparent growth or in that ballpark. Will the mycelium recover once GE is reestablished? I'm in uncharted territory here so bear with me.

Second, I never really got a straight answer before regarding a FC. The pop bottle is not really a viable option for me, I don't have a greenhouse, you seemed hesitant to recommend a repurposed mono (I agree that with my conditions that would not be ideal) so I'm thinking that for my situation, its gotta be a SGFC or nothing? I'm not a fan personally of the SGFC due to my need to moisten the perlite every 3-4 days but I will do what I have to. Will I need to mist and fan these guys as well? Sounds like a pain but maybe I can convince my wife to do it once a day for me while I'm at work, and then I can do it again when I get home.

Third, the whole bottom watering deal. Is it only to be done after the first flush? There will be enough moisture in the grains from the initial prep to carry them through the first flush? Just need to be sure, because for bulk I dunk my grains, then spawn them to field capacity sub which is a lot of water being provided. I just can't wrap my head around straight grain having enough.

Fourth, I've seen you talk about consolidation for these guys. How long of a consolidation period would be ideal? Everyone say's a week for cakes but when one digs deeper they find that is more of a recommended minimum, longer would be better. What would be an ideal consolidation for these?

Just want to make sure I got all the basis covered as I really want to make the most of what this has to offer. Even used one of my favorite cultures to boot :awesomenod:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19226298 - 12/04/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I just bought 30 Ziplock twist n' lock pint plastics for $25. Was this a good deal?

Violet - In the sterilization section you mention having a electric stove. Would a gas stove have adverse effects? Such as melting?

Would love to hear from anyone with a gas stove tips, tricks etc?

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: ForgottenFreshness]
    #19226390 - 12/04/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Nope, gas stove rules!  Offers most even heating and easy use.  You'll only melt containers if your cooker runs out of water.
That's a plenty good deal for the containers.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19248978 - 12/09/13 07:02 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I tried to PC some of these containers and they came out with quite a bit of condensation inside. Is there something I did wrong. I let them cool in the PC over night.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: NOS4A2]
    #19249022 - 12/09/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No it's fine.  Mine usually get condensation. Shaking them before or after inoculating will absorb the moisture


--------------------
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19249051 - 12/09/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Nope, gas stove rules!  Offers most even heating and easy use.  You'll only melt containers if your cooker runs out of water.
That's a plenty good deal for the containers.




I also love gas stoves, but one thing to consider is that the flame and/or extreme heat from the flame will curl around the bottom and up the sides.  If this happens, the plastic won't have any protection until the interior is saturated with steam and pressure is reached.  At that time the temp can't get over 250F/121C so the plastic is protected.

However, during warmup when there is no steam in the upper chamber the flame-curl can melt the plastic.  This isn't a problem with electric stoves, but people need to be cautious of this with gas stoves and make sure the bags or other plastic containers are protected from touching the sides.
RR


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19257813 - 12/10/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

this is how ya prevent the bottoms of PP5 from turning to mush.
works with gas or electric.
helps also with excess moisture, bottoms grow fast and even.
no shake.



this also works for other types of subs also.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19257835 - 12/10/13 09:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I know this is unrelated, but why do those containers fade away in your picture?


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19257922 - 12/10/13 10:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

composite pic.
im getting sick of posting 50 pics to show something,
therefore, were condensing .

like this picture of the exotic chicon nindo mexicanas,
done v tek style. under LED , and fert WBR sub.



sick of clicking millions of pics.
we have new teks, new info, new grows,
and some classic re -do stuff, for cacti and fungi.
the whole catalog, , converted to mini tek pics.
and,
that includes all annies " v tek " stuff.


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Edited by anne halonium (12/10/13 11:05 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19297876 - 12/19/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not sure if I've totally fabricated this or if over the course of u editing and changing out information Ive simply just mixed things around in my head... but to hit back on what Pastyhyte mentioned about consolidation that I never saw a reply to...

You say in this particular version of your tek that its recommended to allow at least a 7-9 day period after the grains reach 100% to properly consolidate. In my mind for some reason I recall reading a stretch of info you once supplied elaborating on how a longer "chew" time for the myc on straight grains does a world of wonder and that more like a ~20 day consolidation period is preferred to really see this method shine. I'm on my second round of these containers now and
continuously refer back to the tek as thoughts or questions come about but it seems like every time I come back something is missing or has changed. So what gives? Is a 7-9 day, hell lets say a full 10 day consolidation period after reaching 100% sufficient enough to get an equally as rewarding results (not taking genetics or any of that into consideration) as a say 20 day period?


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:

Fourth, I've seen you talk about consolidation for these guys. How long of a consolidation period would be ideal? Everyone say's a week for cakes but when one digs deeper they find that is more of a recommended minimum, longer would be better. What would be an ideal consolidation for these?




Please let me know your thoughts on this as well as it would save quite a lot of "waiting" time if the additional consolidation time isn't of very much benefit...

On that note... Do you case and normally put the containers straight into their fruiting environment or do u usually let them sit with the lid on for a little bit then put them in? Would you say that either way would result in equally as speedy fruit formation time wise?


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mosey3012]
    #19299933 - 12/19/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i'mgonna give my libs a trial run with this, i think they will benefit from it. got some nice growth at the moment and gonna transfer to a couple pp5's in the morning, wish me luck:thumbup:


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19299972 - 12/19/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

absolutey:thumbup:

libs?


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19300002 - 12/19/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

yes libs, i had a successfull run with them once and believe the basis of this tek fits them well:thumbup:


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19300020 - 12/19/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

really...........
ya know, they did galindoi , and various mexicanas also in v tek.

a lib v tek could be heroic cronic......


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19300042 - 12/19/13 09:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

they love rgs consolidation casing layers and don't take well to shakes so i got faith on this one:smile:


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #19300064 - 12/19/13 09:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

hmmm interesting.
obviously , this would be a feature thread?

this is the kinda stuff i like to see.
peeps waste too much time arguing, and not enough experimenting.


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Edited by anne halonium (12/19/13 09:08 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19300078 - 12/19/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i'll be posting it here:thumbup: provided v don't mind


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19300252 - 12/19/13 09:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

anne halonium said:
peeps waste too much time arguing, and not enough experimenting.



Best thing I have ever seen you post :super:

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: anne halonium]
    #19300414 - 12/19/13 10:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

hi  whats up? i agree. ive been using pp5 for years for petri,s but ...are these porous? I washed the hell out of some and still smell bac. guess I need to use some vinager. glass is always clean smelling and sterile. just trying to adapt.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19300568 - 12/19/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

Any fruiting chamber can work.
I even sometimes fit 2-liter soda bottles with the bottoms cut off onto the containers as individual chambers!





  Hey Violet quick question about your use of 2 Liter bottles for fruiting chambers.  Do you poke any holes in the bottles near the bottom or take the cap off?  I am wanting to experiment a bit and want to know where to start from.  Thanks.

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19303555 - 12/20/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
You say in this particular version of your tek that its recommended to allow at least a 7-9 day period after the grains reach 100% to properly consolidate. In my mind for some reason I recall reading a stretch of info you once supplied elaborating on how a longer "chew" time for the myc on straight grains does a world of wonder and that more like a ~20 day consolidation period is preferred to really see this method shine. I'm on my second round of these containers now and continuously refer back to the tek as thoughts or questions come about but it seems like every time I come back something is missing or has changed. So what gives? Is a 7-9 day, hell lets say a full 10 day consolidation period after reaching 100% sufficient enough to get an equally as rewarding results (not taking genetics or any of that into consideration) as a say 20 day period?



"What gives" is that you're asking a question that cannot possibly have a certain given answer.
The amount of consolidation time that these cakes benefit from depends on several factors.  I'll elaborate some here since this is the "brevity" version of the tek, but the more detailed explanation you read is in the original presentation "seed&plastic"


Speed of culture in colonization and/or spread of inoculation points:

The faster full colonization is reached, the less 'chew time' has been had at the point of 100%.  If this is because the culture is fast, then metabolism may also be fast, and an extension of consolidation may not be necessary.
If this is because there were many inoculation sites, most of the grain has not been colonized very long and mycelium is not sunk in very well, so this may benefit from an extended consolidation time.

Speed of culture in fruiting:
If a culture does not fruit very quickly, it may be a sign that it didn't have enough time to ready before the initiation of fruiting, in which case it will sit around until ready to fruit regardless of if you keep it in consolidation or give it fruiting conditions.  This would happen either because the culture needs more time due to its behaviorism, or because it needs more time to chew on the nutritious substrate, or both.
If a culture fruits very quickly, it's a sign that consolidation isn't as necessary before fruiting time, yet still leaves open the possibility that some more consolidation could round out flush size and potency.



With all that said...  I suggest a referential consolidation period of 10-14 days.  Factors that may reduce consolidation time could be considered a subtraction of 1 day, and factors that call for more time can be considered an addition of 2 days.

And with that said too,  I'll add that there's not really anything to lose from extra consolidation (although a month from colonized may be too long)  but perhaps some things to gain (solid potency, even flushing, full yield before mycelium is expended)


Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
On that note... Do you case and normally put the containers straight into their fruiting environment or do u usually let them sit with the lid on for a little bit then put them in? Would you say that either way would result in equally as speedy fruit formation time wise?



Some time with lids on after casing wouldn't hurt because the mycelium will colonize the casing before fruiting regardless, but it may delay the switch from casing colonization to fruiting.  Probably not.  Either way, I have usually put mine right in the chamber after casing, though recently I've enjoyed letting them colonize the casing under loose lid.  I might suggest dong that if even well-prepared casing layers contaminate before they're colonized (probably due to excessive live ambient spore count)


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Edited by Violet (02/07/14 04:56 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19307491 - 12/21/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I had the first flushes of a couple containers come in today :thumbup: but I am going to be leaving for a week or so tomorrow. Can I withhold the watering until I get back to delay the next flush?

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: StickyIcky Fingers]
    #19308192 - 12/21/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

ya you can, but if your gone too long.......
they may lose a flush in recovery to hydration.

it is possible to suspend V tek grows for a week or 2.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: anne halonium]
    #19309908 - 12/21/13 11:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This sounds very interesting. Especially with really prolific varieties like GT and B+. Have you tried this with APEs? I am finding that every time I run the Penis Envies they take forever to fruit. Maybe something like this v-Tek (tub Tek?, glad Tek?) might give them what they need? Or maybe they just simply take their sweet time.

Either way, they sure are potent and fun to grow. I look forward to trying this method on for size.


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Edited by Blue Shaman (12/21/13 11:31 PM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Blue Shaman]
    #19403519 - 01/11/14 12:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Wow extremely informative especially microwave casing layer.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: mushies19]
    #19489181 - 01/28/14 11:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

i have a question, and i apologize if i missed it in the post, but when do you shake? only after inoculation? or at certain percentage colonization? also, do you only bottom water the second, and subsequent flushes? can you case and bottom water, or only one or the other?


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: j9radiohead]
    #19489403 - 01/29/14 12:01 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

j9radiohead said:
i have a question, and i apologize if i missed it in the post, but when do you shake? only after inoculation? or at certain percentage colonization? also, do you only bottom water the second, and subsequent flushes? can you case and bottom water, or only one or the other?




You missed the point. You only shake after inoculation to rub the agar around on the grains.

Part of the 'point' of this tek is that the mycelium doesn't waste energy recovering so it can devote itself to fruiting.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: elasticaltiger]
    #19490548 - 01/29/14 09:54 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

generally speaking , i consider PP5's to be " no shake"
combo of size, and shape, and threat of bacteria when shaking,
make them work best when just left to sit.

my tests indicate, theres not much of a time advantage with shaking.
and , consolodation we believe, is the key to a healthy core.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: anne halonium]
    #19490683 - 01/29/14 10:22 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I have decided to pursue this tek and use it as my standard.  I have no interest in huge tubs as I just don't need large quantities of fruit.  I have some grass seeds noc'd up with a tissue sample from a nice specimen. 

I'm going to attempt to noc up pp5 containers with softened brown rice and pick pins with good traits and place them in an agar dish.  So much fun can be had with this hobby.  I truly enjoy the growing process every bit as much the consumption of the fruit.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Stargaze]
    #19495320 - 01/30/14 07:33 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

wonderful.
although this tek holds very well to scale.
it has definite advantages to the smaller grower.

the idea behind it, is to enable yield, without major BS.


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Edited by anne halonium (01/31/14 12:35 PM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: anne halonium]
    #19533036 - 02/06/14 09:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

side pins.  fuckin side pins.  what can be done about the side pins?  i have a few jars fruiting right now, nothing but side pins.  cased and put to fruit last friday, and now, only side pins.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19534034 - 02/07/14 05:21 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Good casing layers, prepared as described in this tek, lain-on "sealed" against the edges of the container, and in humid conditions that makes it the ideal fruiting surface.
Even with casing layers I often get side/bottom pins when the air isn't high humidity, or it's exchanged too much.


--------------------
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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19534400 - 02/07/14 08:44 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I had some side pins when the casing was dry and the humidity was too low. It's pretty dry where I live so I mist the container a little once or twice a day and that got the pins back on the casing.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: StickyIcky Fingers]
    #19536304 - 02/07/14 05:52 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

thanks for the responses.  all i can add is i tried carefully to prepare the casing as exactly as directed, including the sealed edges.  casing isn't drying out.  i keep them in a shotty into which i empty a quart squirt bottle every two or three days (onto the perlite that is.  i mist a couple other things in there, some ends up on these but not too much.  i believe i've gotten quite good at maintaining RH and FAE in my shotty.  just checked, they're moist.  none of the mush i've gotten so far has seemed starved of air or dried out.  just sayin,' i believe those conditions are met.

so i'm thinking of setting the cakes on shallow trays, or maybe the jar lids, which can be watered, so the pins have a place to go.  Or should i leave them to sorta force future pins upward?  i don't feel like that will work.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19538565 - 02/08/14 08:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Hm.  Don't know what to say, then.  Sidepin happens I suppose.

As for a solution of where to go from there...  Try stuff, such as your ideas, see what works for you.

I often pick side-pins off the cake when I'm harvesting, particularly the new tiny ones, in an easy attempt to 'bonsai' the cake towards using the top pinset.  Also, bottom-watering will almost eliminate new pins below the level of the water unless the pins are already there (hence, picking them).  And most importantly, after a flush or two the side-pins will have more than enough space to grow up and out, making them little different from the top pins.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19539163 - 02/08/14 10:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Have you ever considered making a liner for your cakes?


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19539225 - 02/08/14 11:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

How do you suppose to make a plastic liner inside all of these many containers, which can be sterilized in the loaded containers, which can be shaken after inoc without being disrupted, which can be seen thru for contaminants, and which allows for bottom-watering?


Short answer: The consideration passed thru my mind for a silly split second.


Simply enough, side-pins are not a problem for me, even when they do occur.  Mostly they grow just like top fruits after the first flush or so.


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19539288 - 02/08/14 11:34 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I suppose that's true. Side pins never bother me either on my monos.


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #19539309 - 02/08/14 11:41 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

gotta agree, in that i understand the liner works by shrinking with the substrate, yeah?  these things are pinning like crazy while the cakes are still plump, pressed against the jar.  one jar in four has one fruit coming up from the edge.  it looks great, but still.  all the rest are on the sides of all four cakes.  i'm gonna plunk two of them on lids and leave the others, just to be silly.

i'll get pics later, i think.

so violet, i recall you mentioned when you switched to this method, you found that the isolates you used with great success in bulk growing turned out to be less than ideal for this.  i'm working on getting my first isolations now, and plan to test each in bulk and jar.  please comment on your relative experiences getting killer bulk strains, vs killer jar strains.  thank you in advance.

sidepins do bother me for the extra care and effort required to pick them.  plus they remind me of the bound feet of medieval chinese concubines.  a very ugly thing on so many levels.  i hope they do start pointing upward eventually.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19586642 - 02/18/14 06:41 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

i dont get it. grain? v tek? what is meta? im sure im an idiot for asking but anyone?


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: j9radiohead]
    #19612106 - 02/24/14 12:46 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Just wanted to say heyyyyy


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Mosey3012]
    #19612292 - 02/24/14 01:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
Just wanted to say heyyyyy




Holy fuck! You have some competition violet! :grin:


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Sgt. Pepper]
    #19612385 - 02/24/14 01:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
Just wanted to say heyyyyy




Holy fuck! You have some competition violet! :grin:




That's what I'm sayin'!

That's a lot of fruit in a tiny space!


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #19612400 - 02/24/14 01:44 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mushroom_J said:
Quote:

Sgt. Pepper said:
Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
Just wanted to say heyyyyy




Holy fuck! You have some competition violet! :grin:




That's what I'm sayin'!

That's a lot of fruit in a tiny space!



Haha. Those little ones don't even have space to mature! Those mushrooms come in too dense! Down with A-tek! Haha. Just kidding of course.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Mosey3012]
    #19613188 - 02/24/14 05:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

That looks good Mosey!
I'm glad to see your example of quickly-improving results with learning and repeated attempts!

I wish more people would post their successes out in the open :frown:


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19613628 - 02/24/14 06:59 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

ok, violet.  here's the best i've gotten so far.  still side pinning like crazy, but the tops finally started fruiting, too. 



not as good as yours, mosey.  looks great.

so violet, i was reading an ancient thread by fahtster about late casing bulk tubs.  something about light not just being a trigger, but triggering specifically where there's exposure.  so i wondered if covering the outsides of the cups in something opaque and exposing tops to light and air to trigger pins, then casing would be worth a shot. like maybe can coozies or something.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19613648 - 02/24/14 07:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Mine are almost colonized I would say there at 75%

They're 30g dry RGS per cup hydrated according to the modified grain prep for ferts, and the ferts were used. PCed for 40M on a gas stove. I inoculated them 2/14/14 with three small wedges ~120º apart from eachother on the edge of the container. They were all shook once after the growth was about the size of a quarter. So it's been 10 days since inoculation and they're about at 75% but also to consider is that everything else I'm growing seems to be going quite slow in my house this time of year. Temps are ~62-65 most of the time, never getting above 68F unless I'm cooking a huge dinner and using the oven.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19613651 - 02/24/14 07:03 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

J. Jack Flash said:
so violet, i was reading an ancient thread by fahtster about late casing bulk tubs.  something about light not just being a trigger, but triggering specifically where there's exposure.  so i wondered if covering the outsides of the cups in something opaque and exposing tops to light and air to trigger pins, then casing would be worth a shot. like maybe can coozies or something.





If that was the case, people would still be taping the bottoms of their mono's :shrug: IMO your casing appears dry.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #19613665 - 02/24/14 07:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yea I just looked at those pictures, I agree that casing does look pretty dry. And light doesn't directly cause side pins, they still require a environment they prefer to pin. Opaque borders won't change a thing

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19613735 - 02/24/14 07:28 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

hm, ok, thanks, y'all.  i wonder how liners help.  i mean, the side pins here were smashing their own spaces into the sides of the cakes, making their own room, a liner couldn't have made a difference.  i did notice that the fungus never bothered to colonize the casing much.

and yeah, they were pretty dry when this pic was taken.  i keep second guessing how damp they should be, sometimes misting when i mist the perlite, sometimes not.  thanks, though, i just sprayed them.  just realized i haven't been tallying the produce.  oops.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19613756 - 02/24/14 07:31 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

liners help because the mycelium will "colonize" or stick to the liner limiting the space between the mycelium and the tub. Since there's no space then there's no micro climate and then no pins. A liner when done right is like a shrinking container, and it should shrink with your substrate.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19613775 - 02/24/14 07:35 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah that's what i mean, the cakes were stuck to the cups.  had to massage them out to pick the pins off.  anyway, i've done one tiny bulk container, with a liner, and it worked great.  oh well.  guess it's just part of the fun.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19614212 - 02/24/14 09:21 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

pins on mine went down to the sides when the casing was dry. Try taking a spray bottle to your's doing that got fruits back on the top with my containers

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19614852 - 02/24/14 11:47 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

J. Jack Flash said:
ok, violet.  here's the best i've gotten so far.  still side pinning like crazy, but the tops finally started fruiting, too. 



not as good as yours, mosey.  looks great.

so violet, i was reading an ancient thread by fahtster about late casing bulk tubs.  something about light not just being a trigger, but triggering specifically where there's exposure.  so i wondered if covering the outsides of the cups in something opaque and exposing tops to light and air to trigger pins, then casing would be worth a shot. like maybe can coozies or something.




It looks like you didn't give the casing layer a chance to colonize at all.  If you look at Violets containers they are heavily colonized on the surface.

I wasn't patient enough either, but I figured I should share my first pinning on my first successful containers.  These are Mexicube strain either inoculated on 1-10 or 1-12 using various sectors that had been isolated 2 or 3 rounds on agar, so still pretty MS, but with ok growth characteristics.  They are fruiting in a mini mono and only the top right one has no pins so far.  So they haven't exactly been the fastest growers.  Mainly I was waiting for them to colonize the casing. They did that VERY slowly.  They went full colonization of the brown rice in 16 to 20 days, I then let them consolidate for another 7-10 days before casing, and they have been sitting with casing for over 18 days now.  Any input would be appreciated.  Oh and I so far have only 2 side pins despite not packing these down.  Also the casing was sterilized and not pasteurized or done via Violets Microwave method.  I have more jars that used violet's microwave method coming.



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Edited by BigGreenMat (02/24/14 11:48 PM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: BigGreenMat] * 1
    #19614963 - 02/25/14 12:24 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

yeah, stickyicky, that's interesting.  these were going down the side when the tops were damp, dry, and everything in between.  only bothers me cause i wonder how much it affects the outcome.  no worries, tho.  it's all fun and games.

i read:
Quote:

Mycelium will almost always colonize the casing layer a bit before pinning so they can be set in the fruiting chamber to do this or you can have them spend part of this casing colonization time under a loosely cracked lid.


and thought it meant
Quote:

case and put in the shotty.




so that's what i did.  they started pinning almost immediately.  i just looked and saw i noc'd em on 1/5.  don't recall when they were 100% but i feel like they consolidated for two weeks before i cased.  so yours are doing just about the same.  mine were straight up multispore, tho, no thinning of the genetics at all.  i guess that explains it.  good work.  post updates when the flush is ready to pick.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #19615018 - 02/25/14 12:58 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I think the original write up might have said that, but I think it has been amended and Violet prefers to let the casing layer colonize with a tight lid now.  At least that is what I remember reading most recently on her grow log.

See here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19414571


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Edited by BigGreenMat (02/25/14 01:02 AM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19615328 - 02/25/14 04:19 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

something about light not just being a trigger, but triggering specifically where there's exposure.




Light anywhere on a substrate will help to trigger pinning anywhere else on the substrate conditions are right.  However, light is only a secondary pinning trigger.  Light becomes far more important after pinning to get the best growth and finish weight.

A casing layer should at least partly colonize if it's going to do any good.  Many growers let them get to 80% or so, while others expose to fruiting as soon as the mycelium shows up on the surface.  Experiment with your strains to see what works best.
RR


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #19615694 - 02/25/14 08:51 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

very enlightening.  thanks all.  learning is fun.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: BigGreenMat]
    #19615779 - 02/25/14 09:29 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BigGreenMat said:
Yeah, I think the original write up might have said that, but I think it has been amended and Violet prefers to let the casing layer colonize with a tight lid now.  At least that is what I remember reading most recently on her grow log.



Correct!

Someday soon I intend to go thru these tek posts and update them with newer photos and details like those.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #19627202 - 02/27/14 05:00 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

like this tek:) book marking

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: enraged]
    #19865850 - 04/18/14 02:24 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)



still just a cup of shrooms.


Everyone that's done both this and bulk...........
:pleasetellmemore:

Like em or hate them my opinion on PP5 cup TEK V-tek a-tek or cased grains in cups

Violet wants the cups to consolidate just like PF cakes after 100%
Bulk sub takes some time to re-colonize 7-10 days

Same time taken here but likely bulk sub colonizes faster than the minimum recommended consolidation time, All the while the bulk sub colonizes it's also eating the grain more (hence consolidation while it recolonizes) so I would rather have water given during the consolidation period.

then you have these little cups when I could just prep one big cup.

Coir is cheap, BE is a dumb measure of productivity and efficiency no matter how you misconstrue it. If you don't understand that then :shrug: do some grows both way and see which one you end up keeping around.

Like I just said two flushes vs 5+ flushes for yield.

If I ever did pp5 cups again I would just colonize grain spawn then pour it into pp5 cups with a bulk substrate in open air so the pp5 cup never gets pressure cooked they colonize in the pp5 cup and then get a casing. :shrug: mini bulk substrate more of a novetly, even with the improvement it still is just a small ass bulk substrate grow. without the improvement it's just cased grains, obviously the BE would be higher since you're using only grains only high nutrition substrate (violet left the casing layer out of her BE calculations too :facepalm:) but we don't add bulk substrate because we care about BE obviously BE goes down but we get more yield per effort and money so that slightly lowered BE is made up for by a really cheap easy bulk substrate.

I just use 6 quart shoe boxes they're BIG pp5 cups.

I can add grains AND a bulk substrate AND case it rather than just cased grains,

It's rectangular so they actually fit more substrate into a fruiting chamber more efficiently and they hold water better giving you most of your yield on the first 2 flushes rather than spread out among 5+ flushes.

:thumbup:

and in my experience it's less workload and less hassle.



Edited by Trusted cuItivator (04/18/14 10:33 PM)

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: bodhisatta]
    #19869785 - 04/19/14 09:09 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Violet wants the cups to consolidate just like PF cakes after 100%
Bulk sub takes some time to re-colonize 7-10 days

Same time taken here but likely bulk sub colonizes faster than the minimum recommended consolidation time, All the while the bulk sub colonizes it's also eating the grain more (hence consolidation while it recolonizes) so I would rather have water given during the consolidation period.



Lately I've come to realize that large whole grains like rice - in fact, especially rice - need that much colonization or perhaps even a little more for top-notch results and potency,
but grass seed seems to have consolidation-quality results much more quickly.  At least with my culture-tech found selected genes for sure.
I attribute that to the lightness and spread of the weight over more space and much greater surface area, with None of the food's mass being deep withing grains, opposed to Most of it being deep within most/all other grains.

In short, I haven only been having grass seed cakes consolidate 2-4 days before casing, and by the time the pins form on that casing they appear to have had more than enough chew time.

So your mindsets of sticking to mentalisms and "rules-of-thumb" don't apply that well to the infinite variability of the grow.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
then you have these little cups when I could just prep one big cup.



Don't forget your dozens of thick, heavy, fragile, harder-to-clean quart glass jars.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Coir is cheap,



and more expensive than the grains, with little yield power of its own, being mainly for the purpose of supplying water, which watering can do WITHOUT a more expensive material, and an extra massive stage of heat-treatment and colonization.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
BE is a dumb measure of productivity and efficiency no matter how you misconstrue it. If you don't understand that then :shrug:



You must not understand BE as well as you apparently think.
For a given grow method, BE is THE measure of optimization success.

A high number in one method doesn't make it better than another, sure.
250% BE of cased watered grain cakes isn't better than 150% BE in bulk substrate if the actual yield of both is the same.
That's why I use "BE-per-grains" (considering only the grains as the original substrate) when comparing this straight-grain technique to bulk substrate techniques, so that I can show the yields per the heart material alone.
This not only makes for a fair comparison, but even better shows how little the bulk substrate helps as a necessity.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
do some grows both way and see which one you end up keeping around.



I have :hehehe:


Quote:

bodhisatta said:
(violet left the casing layer out of her BE calculations too :facepalm:)



It's pretty lame how you like to cherry-pick trivial points of other people's arguments, while ignoring that those arguments were deflated or refuted entirely.
Quote:

Since they're not substrate, not being edible to the mushrooms as "food" per se hence a casing material, I feel it's more than fair to not add them in to BE.
But even if I DID add them in to BE, they wouldn't throw off the numbers very much at all. Not nearly what whole bricks of coir and bags of verm do.  That's undeniable cherry-picking.




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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #21081590 - 01/07/15 09:25 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Look, I was gonna go easy on you and not to hurt your feelings
But I'm only going to get this one chance
Something's wrong, I can feel it
Just a feeling I've got, like something's about to happen, but I don't know what
If that means, what I think it means, we're in trouble, big trouble,
And if he is as bananas as you say, I'm not taking any chances
You were just what the doctor ordered





Pictures are on the way.  :uptosomething:

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: blackdust]
    #21081609 - 01/07/15 09:29 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

wtf
apparently you're bumping my thread with rap lyrics
wtf


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Violet]
    #21081612 - 01/07/15 09:30 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid::dudewtf:


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: wowimflabbergasted]
    #21113980 - 01/13/15 12:58 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Im from the UK Violet and its really hard to get Peat.  What casing recipe would you suggest for me? 

I found a container with the code PP5 and thought it might just work.

Have you tried growing Pans like this and what recipe would you suggest for this?

Oh and the containers are snap on so I though I would drill a small hole and stuff it with polyfil......Thoughts?

Edited by Edmunter (01/13/15 01:04 PM)

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter]
    #21115745 - 01/13/15 05:15 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I don't like peat and don't recommend it.
In the tek I show using sifted potting soil. The lower the proportion of peat, the better. We use the fine bits that make it thru the sifter, or that stick to themselves in the bottom of a bowl that's tossed around. 

I haven't tried it with Pans, as I don't have any Pan genes. Some others have though and have success both with straight grass seed as well as seed mixed with manure-based bulk subs.

If you can't find screw top containers like the ziplocs then pop tops can made to work.  I don't like modifying lids like that because the health of the top mycelium is the most important and those kinds of filters CAN promote surface drying, especially for such a small container and sub.

Good luck!  Let us know how it goes, and I hope you keep a look out for some strong cultures!


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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21115783 - 01/13/15 05:26 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
strong cultures!





Yes!

I'm looking for speed in mine. For the scrub pads of course. I got the multi-color pack at Family Dollar and I think they are the same as you use!

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Re: "Violet tek" & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: blackdust]
    #21118515 - 01/14/15 12:19 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blackdust said:
Quote:

Violet said:
strong cultures!





Yes!

I'm looking for speed in mine. For the scrub pads of course. I got the multi-color pack at Family Dollar and I think they are the same as you use!




Im doing some isolating atm, but will clone some when I get some healthy fruits.  Im trying the grain slurry method to see if it can outrun the contamination but was unsure as to how blended I should make it.

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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter]
    #21166856 - 01/23/15 10:28 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Refreshed this tek a little bit by making the container & lidding portion uniform with my other teks,  clarifying and expanding upon the consolidation section,  explained casing and its use for different sub choices for this tek, and removed a bunch of pointless clutter from the BE & yield section.


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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21210562 - 02/01/15 11:18 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

What colonisation percentage of the casing have you had best results with?

Mine looks like this and Im thinking of fruiting tomorrow.



Im growing cubensis

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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter]
    #21210915 - 02/01/15 01:02 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I always put into fruiting somewhere around 80/95/100% colonized.


--------------------
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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21211037 - 02/01/15 01:35 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

So as said,tomorrow.

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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter]
    #21230202 - 02/05/15 11:58 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Violet...I have WBS jars colonizing now that are for mini mono bulk, but next round, I want to try this tek, just to make sure I have this much:
Pint sized containers?
Straight rye grass seed?
Also, do you fertilize with this method? If so, I'd love info on that.
Thanks!

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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MBabble]
    #21230605 - 02/05/15 01:34 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

That's right.  For pint containers, which will be fruited in a chamber of some sort, be sure to prepare some casing layer when the time comes.  It's only necessary for grass seed when in a chamber fruiting condition.
Grass seed is good, because it's fast and flushes out more quickly allowing for a faster cycling of containers in and out of the grow and a higher yield-per-pound of grain, but brown rice will have the strongest yield-per-container after it's all done.  It needs quite a bit of consolidation though where grass seed needs very little, but that may give it the potency edge.

I do use a fert pre-ferment with this method.  The details can be found in my journal. My signature has a link to my main tells and posts; that particular link is at the bottom of that page.


--------------------
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Re: V-tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21230731 - 02/05/15 02:00 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Perfect, thanks again for everything.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21363221 - 03/04/15 07:54 PM (9 years, 27 days ago)

Violet,

Any input on humic acid? or other specialty ingredients for grows?


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Chem-4 OG]
    #21363326 - 03/04/15 08:19 PM (9 years, 27 days ago)

No, can't say to really know a thing about it.  Seems to me like basic decomposed stuff?  Everything I have read about or heard about regarding pitency potentiator additives has been either bunk or very wasteful. I did see some potential in tryptamine additives, as dmt precursors, but simply don't know enough to speak on it, such as I don't know if it would turn out to be cost effective, considering a $1.50 2lb bag of brown rice can produce many huge doses of potent fruits.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21377460 - 03/08/15 09:35 AM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Thanks for sharing your Tek. I find your information very useful, the photos are much appreciated.
"considering a $1.50 2lb bag of brown rice can produce many huge doses of potent fruits. " such a true statement.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: dancing monkey]
    #21377850 - 03/08/15 11:37 AM (9 years, 23 days ago)

Very well written!

If only every tech could be so clear and concise.    5+

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: DirdyD]
    #21417677 - 03/16/15 07:55 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Cleared for redo


--------------------
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Edited by Violet (03/16/15 08:38 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21417684 - 03/16/15 07:57 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

i'll click them when ya pm the site source:hehehe:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21417703 - 03/16/15 08:00 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

It's dmt-nexus.  But you don't click them, they're just right there.  No expanding, except the first one, which I uploaded here.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21417779 - 03/16/15 08:16 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

they don't show for me:shrug: and i'm not allowed to register there:lol:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21417795 - 03/16/15 08:18 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

I can only see the first one the rest are broken links.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21417846 - 03/16/15 08:27 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Oh, damn. Maybe it only works for members. In a bit I'll try uploading again, and edit the post.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21417867 - 03/16/15 08:32 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Dayum!  Those are beautiful.  (I can only see the first as well)

Thanks, Violet.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: DirdyD]
    #21417892 - 03/16/15 08:38 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

[Okay, here they are.  Worked much better this time.]

Anne has uploaded some photos of a very nice multi-spore AA+ violet tek grow to another forum.
I thought the Shroomery might like to see them!

Enjoy!




Worth noting that this is from just 12 ounces of rice.


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Edited by Violet (03/16/15 08:44 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21418020 - 03/16/15 09:04 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21418187 - 03/16/15 09:33 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Nice :awesomenod:

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21418407 - 03/16/15 10:22 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

tell annie cron said":firstladyofapproval:(i'll keep it civil"


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21450173 - 03/24/15 08:23 AM (9 years, 7 days ago)

Hi Violet,  What do you think f these tubs.  They are bigger than the ones u use.  The lid fits tight but i dont think its air tight.

Will contams get in there through the lid gap?  They would have to travel up.

PP5




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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter] * 1
    #21451386 - 03/24/15 02:07 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)



Fruiting chamber


invitro cakes 3/22/15


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21452347 - 03/24/15 05:36 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
[Okay, here they are.  Worked much better this time.]

Anne has uploaded some photos of a very nice multi-spore AA  violet tek grow to another forum.
I thought the Shroomery might like to see them!

Enjoy!




Worth noting that this is from just 12 ounces of rice.




Finally, pics that make me want to try this.
Thanks!!

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MBabble]
    #21452354 - 03/24/15 05:38 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)

What, are my great ones not good enough for you? Hmph.
Not as if I haven't shown results like that.


--------------------
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21452464 - 03/24/15 06:02 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mushroom_J said:


Fruiting chamber


invitro cakes 3/22/15




:eek: great work!


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21452808 - 03/24/15 07:42 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)

V-tek is cool for the fact that the method can help teach what good spawn looks, smells, and responds like. Often times when a bulk grow is done for the first time that a bad spawn jar or 2 gets put in during the spawn-run and then mold takes over and ruins the project. This method is a great stepping stone for one who would like to slowly move to bulk or to use as a primary method for propagating mushrooms. Thank you for sharing. I hope to see more from you in the future.

BD

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21452851 - 03/24/15 07:58 PM (9 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Edmunter said:
Hi Violet,  What do you think f these tubs.  They are bigger than the ones u use.  The lid fits tight but i dont think its air tight.
Will contams get in there through the lid gap?  They would have to travel up.




They might could work.  I don't know about the lids.  Once you start trying to use various equips other than screw-tops, you're just figuring out your own way to do waterable grain cakes.  One thing is for sure, contams don't have trouble traveling up when the air is at all stirred up.
Worth noting is that those look substantially larger.  Might not be able to fit many in a cooker, depending.  Also keep in mind, the larger the cake, the less effective watering can be.  It's likely that increasingly larger cakes will get lower yield per grains.


Quote:

Mushroom_J said:


Fruiting chamber


invitro cakes 3/22/15




Very nice, J.  Please keep posting!

I love the improvised "fruiting chambers".  My favorite so far has been the 2-liter bottle.  I've had great results with everything I've tried that stopped the surface from drying out.

Those are the PF-sub cakes we talked about? I look forward to seeing those.  You should posts updates to those in the new invitro tek thread, which includes using PF cake sub for those without pressure cookers.

Thanks!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21453988 - 03/25/15 01:08 AM (9 years, 7 days ago)

Thanks Cron  :rockon: appreciate it!

We'll see how the bags turn out. They're re-usable.

Those are the BRF tek. From spore so it'll be a while till fruits.
I'll start updating when growth starts. They're dated. Standard brf/verm/water mix fit into 4 containers. 1 cup of brf mix each.

I have some brf/coir/gypsum invitro coming too. Should be knotting in a week or so. I also have a couple other mixes and some muda style cakes that are brf/verm/coir/gypsum/coffee grounds.

Other stuff too.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21453995 - 03/25/15 01:12 AM (9 years, 7 days ago)

What grain are the violet tek containers? And, multispore?


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21454157 - 03/25/15 03:10 AM (9 years, 6 days ago)

They're rgs master to brown rice. Been 3.5-4 weeks. 5-7 days to 100% colonization. Bout a week to consolidate. Cased and set for a week.
Put into fruiting last week and pinning this week.
They're from agar but a few transfers in from multispore.
I lost a few to bacteria. I overcooked the rice. It's a tough grain.

I really like how you can microwave the casing.
I've been using this http://www.wormsway.com/en/bgsm906d

I sift it with my wire strainer to get the bark/perlite out.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21454668 - 03/25/15 08:09 AM (9 years, 6 days ago)

I love it ive been reading the hell out of your different posts and im trying to see if i cant do my own version of the vtek!

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21455654 - 03/25/15 01:22 PM (9 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Mushroom_J said:
They're rgs master to brown rice. Been 3.5-4 weeks. 5-7 days to 100% colonization. Bout a week to consolidate. Cased and set for a week.
Put into fruiting last week and pinning this week.
They're from agar but a few transfers in from multispore.
I lost a few to bacteria. I overcooked the rice. It's a tough grain.

I really like how you can microwave the casing.
I've been using this http://www.wormsway.com/en/bgsm906d
I sift it with my wire strainer to get the bark/perlite out.



You lost a few to bacteria, you say - how long did you pressure cook the rice containers?


This isn't specifically to you, but your post made me think to say it:

When you're using a multi-spore culture and looking to take clones from a regular cake grow out,  it's best not to use G2G from a single master container.  That ends up spreading all of the cultures into all of the containers.  You are likely to have a greater show from the variation of the cultures if you inoculate each container individually from various areas of multi-spore plates.  It may take just a tad longer to inoculate six containers instead of one, but it saves you the initial grow-out time and the second inoculation.


--------------------
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21455842 - 03/25/15 02:17 PM (9 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
What, are my great ones not good enough for you? Hmph.
Not as if I haven't shown results like that.




No offense meant, I must have forgotten or missed them.  Eek

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21456454 - 03/25/15 04:48 PM (9 years, 6 days ago)

Pc'd for 1 hr 15 min.
Probably being to wet and taking them out of the pc before it cooled.
Assuming air rushed in under the lip since the lids were loose.
No biggie.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21456670 - 03/25/15 05:39 PM (9 years, 6 days ago)

Maybe no biggie but worth checking out.
I only sterilize brown rice for 50-60min 15psi, lids unscrewed.  If air were to have gotten in it would be mold not bacteria you encountered.
Maybe it was that they're too wet.  But for that amount of time, I'd be concerned with how the bacteria got there.
I would investigate 2 things.  One, making sure the cooker is totally filled with steam, blowing constant steam out the petcock, before adding the rocker to raise pressure.
Secondly, I'd make sure the master grains used to inoc were similarly thoroughly and properly sterilized. In my experience, you just cannot sterilize grass seed too long; it holds up regardless.


--------------------
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21460481 - 03/26/15 12:15 PM (9 years, 5 days ago)

Update:



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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21462217 - 03/26/15 06:59 PM (9 years, 5 days ago)

Aw I was hoping they'd get bigger before popping veils.  That's multi-spore for ya though.  Still looking good nonetheless.  Keep with it!  You're clearly doing the grow well so far.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21463947 - 03/27/15 01:34 AM (9 years, 5 days ago)

They're from the same syringe drops as the ones in my sig and avatar.
Those were 3-4 inches. wbs to coir. 1-2 inch subs. These are 2.5-3.5 in.
So not to much of a difference. They drank 15-20 cc's of water each so far. I'm pleased.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21466062 - 03/27/15 03:43 PM (9 years, 4 days ago)

1st flush harvest:

g1:
g2:
j1:
j2:

165.2 wet g's/4 containers.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21466177 - 03/27/15 04:08 PM (9 years, 4 days ago)

Not bad MJ, not bad at all!  Thanks for sharing. Keep showing us how the next flushes come!
Any pre-harvest pictures?


Some of your yield is still on the cakes - stumps.  That's one of the main advantages to having an isolate culture shown to pluck right off of the casing layer.  Many strains won't do it, but it's one of the main differences for me between a great strain and a vtek champion.

Even when fruits I grew had a hold on the casing layer, I preferred twist and pull harvesting anyway.  I have my reasons, more than one.  It's preferable having a strain that plucks right up with little to no casing layer damage, but I still find twist and pull preferable to cutting, regardless.  I might still trim off the parts with more casing layer on them than I wanted though.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21468769 - 03/28/15 12:41 AM (9 years, 4 days ago)

Pre-harvest:


Pinning off the wall.


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Edited by Mushroom_J (03/28/15 12:47 AM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21468773 - 03/28/15 12:41 AM (9 years, 4 days ago)

:fuckinawesome: great stuff!


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21469281 - 03/28/15 07:26 AM (9 years, 3 days ago)

Yah man. Looks good.:raisemyglass:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: MudaFuka]
    #21469464 - 03/28/15 08:38 AM (9 years, 3 days ago)

Very nice :highfive1:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: wowimflabbergasted]
    #21470651 - 03/28/15 03:28 PM (9 years, 3 days ago)

container 5:


Container 6: This was actually the first to fruit, but side pins only.
Didn't take pics. Think it was about 36 wet g's at harvest.


This is flush 2 minus 2 big side pins i picked. One out of 6 that performed poorly.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21477215 - 03/30/15 01:21 AM (9 years, 2 days ago)

4 containers...
wet weight: 165.2
dry weight

container 5:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21512416 - 04/06/15 09:02 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

2nd flush:








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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21512506 - 04/06/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:fuckinawesome:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #21512566 - 04/06/15 09:39 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I used a throw away plate on these to learn the tek. With a good culture I think these can really put out.
I'll be revisiting after I do the culturing tek which I have 7 cups going. 5 rice pucks and 2 kentucky blue grass pucks lol. They're about 50% right now.

To many projects going lol.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Mushroom_J]
    #21580233 - 04/22/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Hi V,  Can I make grainwater if ive used gypsum and coffee in the soak.  Im finding grainwater the best ive used for growing cultures.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Edmunter]
    #21580722 - 04/22/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Coffee and gypsum in the water is fine :thumbup:

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21585842 - 04/23/15 01:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Indeed!
Personally I don't use them, but for a while at first I did and had no trouble at all.  Since I've not seen anything really noteworthy come of using them, I prefer it simple and tidy, but that's me.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21585870 - 04/23/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

is pickling lime okay too?

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: blackdust]
    #21586004 - 04/23/15 01:44 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I don't suppose it would hurt as long as you're accurately using it for pH balance.  I've only ever put it in casing layers back when I used peat (*shudder*)


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #21625246 - 05/02/15 09:06 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I'm doing the V tek with birdseed.  Some people have said WBS is not a great fruiter and should only be used to spawn.  Can anyone speak on this?  Has anyone done a side by side v tek test with birdseed versus rgs?  birdseed should produce more fruits since it is more dense nutritionally right?  But does it?

Also, is it the lightness of RGS that makes it the ideal cubensis substrate?  Fully colonized RGS looks very spongy like a pf cake, while fully colonized birdseed looks really dense like the mycelium haven't digested it fully.. just my observations.  I'd love to hear other opinions..


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Jerome09]
    #22177464 - 09/02/15 09:29 AM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Wow, I've really missed some posts for a long time! Sorry!
I half suspect you have your answers for now, but at least for the thread's sake, I'll answer since nobody else has.


I think millet and milo (the main grains in most birdseed) are great grains, especially millet.
Someone who's an advocate of these teks has been saying that it has issues with hydration, and that it needs "more precise watering" I think it was, but I don't agree.  I think any grain used for this tek may perform differently but is used by the grower just the same.

However, relevant to your other question, there is one major difference in use.  Millet, like brown rice, benefits (to the point of necessity) from having an extended period of consolidation "chew time" before made to fruit from a casing layer.  It may not need quite as much as brown rice since it's not quite as dense and is a bit smaller, but it still definitely needs it.


You're pretty close, about grass seed's advantage.  The lightness, smallness, and thinness of grass seed is the majority of its advantage for growing, particularly in this way.  It is consumed much more quickly and easily and is ready for full flushes much more quickly.
The spread of grass seed's mass does mean a container has less nutrition weight total to produce yield from, but being spread over more containers can allow your pound of grain to yield more total, just like we know that 2 bulk substrates that are 2 inches deep are likely to yield more than one 4-inch deep substrate.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #22381542 - 10/15/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 5 months ago)

Still sifting my way though all of this great information on the V-tek !

Quote:

Violet said:

I don't like peat and don't recommend it. In the tek I show using sifted potting soil. The lower the proportion of peat, the better. We use the fine bits that make it thru the sifter, or that stick to themselves in the bottom of a bowl that's tossed around. 






But isn't the fine material in most potting soils peat moss?   

The other major components of most potting soils are fine bark and composted forest materials. Of course sometimes with a bit of perlite and on rare occasion, vermiculite. 

You don't like the 50/50+ casing formula?  I always thought that was the gold standard around here...

Quote:

Violet said:
I always put into fruiting somewhere around 80/95/100% colonized.




Unsure if this is optimum, but I really like the Tasmanian strain, and the mycelium grows so fast that I "case and place" (a method I learned here many years ago). . . after 10 days of my RGS spawn run (when using coir or compost) I put my trays into the FC, and I see mycellium on the surface in about 3 days and pins on about day 6 . . . Just my 2 cents . . . Again, maybe not optimal but the strategy seems to work well for my situation. If I recall, the members who advocated this "case and place" methodology claimed it worked well for particularly aggressive types, which is why I tried it, to avoid an overly dense casing run, which is what I think is called "overlay". I used to scratch my casings when I got overlay, and that helped a lot and promoted pin-set, but with "case and place" my casing remains functional, and can still absorb water.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #22535507 - 11/16/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Gonna do an ms grow with these to search for some clones.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22601556 - 12/01/15 09:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Casing layer got obliterated, given the fact I need some of it uncolonized to deal with my dry climate, I patched which brought the level up pretty high. Nonetheless some pins popping up and I am seeing a few that look to have potential for cloning.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22610795 - 12/03/15 09:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So the flush is uneven which is to be expected with ms. Going to clone one of the clusters that looks promising.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22610968 - 12/03/15 10:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

:crondance:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #22611027 - 12/03/15 10:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Is this PE?
What's the sub?

I'm glad to see you doing this more! Maybe it'll pick up and get some nice force rolling, and I hope it does. Otherwise, I am disappointed for you that so far your results are looking like that.  I'm not sure why your results seem to look something like this each time.  At least I know you've seen lots of pictures from my grows, and at least several from others, that indicate that some sweet grows are possible!, and in our opinions, easy.

Maybe it's slow, or whatever else it's doing, because of the casing layer? From what I can tell at least, it looks extra extra thick.

Keep posting! Thanks!


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #22611043 - 12/03/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Naw it's just that noob used ms:rolleyes::rofl:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #22611126 - 12/03/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yup casing was thick and is ms. Got overrun and started to look dry so I patched. Also PE. I'm not dissatisfied tho, that one cluster looks prime for cloning which is all I am looking for with this. Going to be testing a few more clones with this in the future as well.

I plan to do a lot of grows like this going forward, it's going to suit my current needs well.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22611144 - 12/03/15 10:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Yup casing was thick and is ms. Got overrun and started to look dry so I patched. Also PE. I'm not dissatisfied tho, that one cluster looks prime for cloning which is all I am looking for with this. Going to be testing a few more clones with this in the future as well.

I plan to do a lot of grows like this going forward, it's going to suit my current needs well.



:manofapproval:It's what i need to do as well...i just can't afford enough containers right now:frown:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #22629534 - 12/08/15 11:00 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

How's it going, Pasty?
Also what's the substrate?  WBS?

I'm glad you're not dissatisfied.  I'm just concerned that the technique might still be measured by such results. I have more often than not been underwhelmed by the majority of my own multi-spore grows with this method.  For a long time I haven't even put multi-spore cultures to full sized cakes at all!
As you probably know, I do most of what you're doing here instead with thin layers of grass seed or brown rice, invitro in pint containers.  By the time I have put a culture to a full-sized cake, I already know that it's got near top-notch speed of colonization and fruiting, and has a well above average yield capability, with a general idea as to how the fruits look and in what manner it pins and fruits.  At that point I'm just seeing how it pans out consistently on full cakes so that I can mostly eliminate the fluke factor from the initial invitro pinning speed and yield invitro test phase.  This stops me from having full cakes that I feel were a waste, which is admittedly significantly more likely with a culture crapshoot in this grow than with the coddling and playing-field-leveling condition of a bulk watermass substrate.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #22629598 - 12/08/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Right now almost nothing feels like waste to me, I am blessed with abundance. I am in full on testing mode right now. Gonna see how the clones I took pan out, meanwhile some second flush pins coming in look pretty sweet as well. Might post a pic in a bit.

Sub was wheat. Casing was coir which maybe was a mistake tho I have had it work well with these in the past. Gonna keep tweaking :wink:

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22681682 - 12/20/15 10:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Well those ms were not the best first flush but they keep giving. On my third now. But forget them, I was trying a few other clones and I think I got a winner. This one is known for sparse pinsets but really fatass dense fruits. I have hope that its gonna grow slow enough to really make use of the supplied water. Should be interesting. If it runs good I will do a bunch of em.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #22774110 - 01/13/16 11:01 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I've got plastic containers but no lids, how can I do it with foil?

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: RTB]
    #22774129 - 01/13/16 11:07 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Errr... It might work if you can REALLY seal them up with foil after inoculating.  Use plenty of foil, get them straight from the cooker into the already set up still-air box, and after inoculating make sure you crunch the foil tightly against the threads all the way around, down under the edge of the containers' holding tab thingy, and then pushed down onto the edge of the container itself, being careful not to tear it.
I don't recommend it, but it might work.  Should work, I think.

You can essentially do PF-tek style with them for sure.  BRF/verm substrate recipe, dry verm barrier, snug foil during sterilization, then inoculate thru the foil and dry verm barrier. It would make a very large cake though.  Be sure to also inoculate in the center - I hope your inoculant is mold-free! - and if you're at the stage of being able to use liquid inoculant or a tested liquid culture you'll get much faster results than waiting on a sluggish multi-spore grow-out.
When they're colonized you can remove the cover and place into fruiting conditions, treating them the same way as containers in this tek. Likely don't have to case that substrate.


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Edited by Violet (01/13/16 02:16 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #22774462 - 01/13/16 01:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks, Violet. I'll post back with results of all goes well.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: RTB]
    #22774477 - 01/13/16 01:14 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Please post back with results regardless!  Either way it goes, it will be good for us to know.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #22774684 - 01/13/16 02:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I would suggest making a doo-rag out of heavy guage aluminum foil with a rubberband.  Press seal it for the PC run, transfer to still air box for inoculation immediately when completely cool, then rubberband under the rim of the container.


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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22902656 - 02/14/16 03:38 AM (8 years, 1 month ago)



Everything went okay. Approximately 250g of rye grain colonised and then cased with a coir/soil mix that I use for cannabis; I washed the soil through a strainer to increase the coir content to approximately 50/50 and then sterilised in my PC. I must say this was such an easy tek to follow far simper than PF tek and from that pin set  I'm guessing significantly more productive.
I chose the grain over grass seed because rye grain cost me £25 for 20kg, grass seed was too expensive for me to even consider, even if it was twice or thrice as productive.

I'll be sure to return with the final results of my first flush.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: RTB]
    #23409780 - 07/04/16 09:42 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I posted this on the newbie forum but maybe this is the better place to ask. This is my first grow. For a variety of reasons I started out with a bottom watering BRF "tek" in the 500ml pp5 screw top containers. This is #1 of the first two containers I 'nocced up with a honey tek about a month ago. It caught me off guard and started to pin in vitro before it got to 100% colonization. Of course I didn't even have time to case it.



It's still got this tiny bit of uncolonized substrate on the side of the container and I'm not sure if I should start bottom watering it or if that would be risking contamination. What do you guys think should I do it? I was thinking maybe I should at least wait until I see some more pins to make sure the water will be drunk up fast enough and not sit in there for too long. I think I'm only seeing about 4 mushies coming out so far.

Also, container #2 has been at 100% colonization and in consolidation for about a week and I think I'm starting to see some knotting (kinda hard to see though due to the black lid). I was thinking of going for two weeks consolidation time but seeing as how container number one is already fruiting maybe I should just case container #2 as well and put into fruiting so it doesn't sneak up on me.

Couple more pics:



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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: attfalt]
    #23423565 - 07/08/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

love these teks but it seems like there is a lot of contradictory information between your various topics, violet. in one part of one post you say no need to use a casing layer for this tek, and in another part of another post you DO recommend a casing layer for what seems like the exact same tek. having a hard time finding and deciding on ONE method, ONE "pods tek" to stick to. can you ease my confusion? feeling a bit paralyzed by the uncertainty =(

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: La Flama Blanca]
    #23812352 - 11/08/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Hi Violet,

I have a tub that stalled out somewhere in the middle.  Is it worth putting it into fruiting conditions seeing the top layers are fine?

How does GE effect colonisation times with this TEK.  I only have 1 small MP covered hole.

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Edmunter]
    #23822037 - 11/11/16 06:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Awesome, thanks for sharing.


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: wolfedawwg]
    #23839593 - 11/16/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I just read all 11 pages of this....wow.....

Maybe I missed it, but would using simply vermiculite for casing work as well or better than potting soil?

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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Bernard]
    #23839597 - 11/16/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It never does


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Re: Biological efficiency & Yield [Re: Bernard]
    #23839644 - 11/16/16 05:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bernard said:
I just read all 11 pages of this....wow.....





Thats alot of paragraphs.  Nice job :thumbup:


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If you want to eat->https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8553541

Bag sealers are to bulky (my hood isn't that big)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28622922



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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23840012 - 11/16/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I don't like verm only casing. Wouldn't recommend it unless you already like them. I grew far away from verm before I started growing in ways like this, so I don't exactly have any experience-based details with this grow method


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24231966 - 04/10/17 08:54 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Marking this for later use.

awesomeness!!


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24786305 - 11/16/17 04:33 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Violet, at last I am doing my first grow with your method. Did some writeup in my journal in case you want to see.

Thanks a lot, it is the most succesful and easiest grow i have ever done, yet still waiting for the fruits to rise.. 
:rockon:

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: mentat]
    #24787051 - 11/16/17 12:27 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Hi mentat,
Thanks for the overdue bump.  Nice read!  Situations like yours, lack of availability of materials etc., are in fact one of the prime reasons I was motivated to share this method online.

The person who inspired my version of this methodology developed it growing high up in a populated 'hotel' apartment building, also outside the U.S. like you.
Her limitations were availability, weight, fragility, portability, discretion.  Equipment consisting entirely of AA910s, can-style tank propane burners, ziplocs and other useful plastics and totes to put them in, small powerful single material substrates and small chip LEDs, she focused first on having cultures that could adapt to yielding so highly off of pure grains with the water being fed gradually to the sub instead of colonized in it.  She became able to drain top yields off of grain with way fewer steps and materials and with material/energy use and waste small enough to not draw any attention, even when she boomed her grows up to large scale.

I just guess not everybody sees the forest thru the trees.  Too preoccupied convincing themselves my methods can't and don't deserve to compete with the ones they adopted, since they fully adopted so many extra steps, materials, etc., and have a thorough mental and philosophical investment in them.


The one concession I can make with this v-tek is that it pays off way way more for people willing to get into the isolation of ideal cultures, although even growing multi-spore this method, in particular the Pods version, is leaps and bounds *easier* than just about any full grow-out method known on the forum, so the payoff doesn't only appear in yield.

And personally I don't see adopting methodologies of superfluous labor and expense as a worthwhile price to pay to avoid culturing, especially since methods that ask for that much of a time/money/labor/learning investment also encourage people to culture anyway...


So, on that note, what kind of culture are you using?

Also, millet is a solid substrate for this tek! One of our three favorites/recommended. Glad you were able to find it instead of ordering unknown and costly ryegrass, or using even larger cereal grains.  Remember with some extra patience brown rice is also a great option.

Hope to see some photos of the grow when it takes off!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
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Edited by Violet (11/16/17 12:51 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24787111 - 11/16/17 01:17 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

thanks :smile:

i bought a strain called 'dutch king' 3 years ago and had 4 consecutive generations spore prints. I still am not sure if I do obtain MS or monoculture after 4-5 transfers. But the spawns develop healthy and quick. I also cleaned out some ecuador spores but at some point disinfectant spray messed up the ink on the petri lids so I lost the track. so noob! :facepalm3:

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24788652 - 11/17/17 06:09 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

i have a question..
peat is super expensive over here (could go up to 10 dollars per half a liter).
would you suggest I go with half on half coco coir-verm casing with gypsum and calcium carbonate? if so do you think I should pasteruize it..?

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: mentat]
    #24789066 - 11/17/17 09:45 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Wow...at that price you should be selling peat:crazy:


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I'm tired do me a favor

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24789748 - 11/17/17 03:10 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Holy crap!

Yeah use whatever reasonable casing is available. Coir works and I like it alright. Verm I hate passionately but it works and if it's available to you then cool. Don't pay outrageous prices like that for peat.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24793157 - 11/19/17 07:59 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

violet i am preparing to try the grain petri tek for stronger genetics.

have a couple of questions as usual.. :smile:

one thing that confuses me with agar isolation is that, when spores or the wedge takes off, it grows weak in the beginning and then stronger growth seems to come over the former growth. after 4-5 days, I see on my plates some ropy growth but not on the edges, somewhere in the mid circle. What I have read so far tells me to choose from the edge always, but if the rizomorphic growth is in the middle, is that ok to take the sample from there as well?

second question is about the grain petri. after inoculation and expansion, how do you pin it. it was not specified how exactly you have done it so maybe you could elaborate a little on that.

tx.

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: mentat]
    #24799663 - 11/22/17 10:09 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Hi again mentat,
Sorry for the delay, but I'm also a bit disappointed that apparently nobody else will answer normal myco questions when they're in my threads.

I know the grain petri part is gonna be a bit more specific to me but that's also disappointing, as it still seems that effectively nobody around what is supposed to be the most knowledgeable, experienced, open-minded, helpful, curious and experimental forum is able or willing to answer for these simple methods as well.


What you're first describing happening on agar can be thought of for brevity as the mycelium developing fully.  This happens as it grows out into its first medias, as well as when different dikaryotes are able to begin pulling away from each other, as per isolation.  Mycelium gets is pace up not only in its initial post-germ spread, but also after each new inoculation as it establishes a hold on new media to power faster growth out into more of it, and it is more common for it to change appearance some as it does it than for it not to.  Even something like a flash of fresh air, like opening my containers, can cause a 'ring' change in growth appearance or stoke sectors to show a different side.

Take growth from the leading edge.  The 'rhizomorphic' mycelium you describe in the middle is unlikely to actually be ropey culture growth but something a consolidating culture is doing.  You're wanting to see that linear rhizo growth in new growth.  Which may not always happen on agar... you'll see how media factors like nutrient, nutrient density of different nutrients, and firmness of media have a hand in how the growth looks and that it's not always about the culture alone.


As for the grain petris, pinning conditions are initiated with gas exchange, by cracking the lid slightly loose once mycelium has reached the whole of the outer edges of the substrate.  It's the same procedure for pinning Pods containers, except you won't crack them nearly as loosely as is possible with deeper larger amounts of substrate, especially when cased, in a pod container. These things could dry out easily and you want to avoid that, and you also are looking for cultures that will pin strongly even in high CO2 conditions. We don't want our best cultures to be divas about air if we can avoid it which we kinda can.

Take extra note of the time I say to initiate pinning conditions, because that can also play a hand in stopping the culture from running up the plastic where it will be much more likely to form its pins instead, giving you a bit less of keen perspective on the culture's willingness to fruit directly from recently colonized nutritious subsrate.  Mycelium's main pinning condition is a location where it doesn't have to digest strong food mere nanometers away.
It may still run up the plastic anyway.  But that's alright. Such differences being able to appear is a part of why I use this method.


Remember you're not so much getting better genetics out of your spores this way, so much as using an organized method of observing cultural traits and quickly tossing the lesser performers before you even have to fruit them, reducing the culture load to the more desirable traits - knowing more about what you're dealing with and without hundreds of plates of agar running blind cultures.


Grain petri tek is not for the impatient hungry grower, it's for the patient cuture hound.  I don't care if I put a full grow out off for 3 or 4 whole months if it means I don't inoc a single container with anything less than a great culture.  Frankly hunting for cultures alone grows me well more than I could possibly bring mysef to eat.  Culture hunting has become like the entirety of my growing, personally.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

Edited by Violet (11/22/17 10:21 AM)

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Offlinegourmet
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24803794 - 11/24/17 10:33 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

So overall, what's the conjecture on using this tek or a very similar one for edibles?

Specifically, oysters, kings and poplars.

Poplars morphologically are like cubes without the psilopsybin.

I know every edible grower has had their old grain jars start pinning on them, but has anyone been able to get decent yields with straight, cased, bottom-watered grains with ANY edibles?

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: gourmet]
    #24804141 - 11/24/17 01:25 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

All the slander, drama/blaming, and ostracizing on this forum has been effective in stifling the forum's knowledge of, therefore use, therefore experience with, therefore knowledge about, this tek.
I'm disappointed to say, don't expect to hear very much from anyone but me.

I haven't tried it much with edibles but mostly for the reason I already know it wouldn't be so great - these containers aren't holding a lot of bulk substrate.
It's designed mostly with cubensis in mind thanks to its abilities draining yield off of whole grains.

Many gourmet species cannot grow exclusively from whole grains at all, and when they do they're limited by water. Of course this tek was designed to be watered but it just doesn't pay off nearly as much for edibles, mostly because they're edibles you know?

The next reason is fruit appearance. Mushrooms like Lion's Mane, Oyster, etc either look way way better growing from the side of their substrates or essentially require it.

Mushrooms like Enoki could probably do well in the Pods version.

All in all, I wouldn't say these methods are well suited for gourmets, though anything you can put the right sub in, sterilize, and inoculate, can grow mushrooms.

BTW it would probably moreso resemble Muda's bottle tek which is based on this tek but larger amounts of sub since bulk is included.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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Edited by Violet (11/24/17 08:31 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet] * 1
    #24804168 - 11/24/17 01:37 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

U ok violet? I know you had a rough go in the past but I'm sure that's behind u's all and people are only leaving you to answer out of respect or at least that's my thinking..I avoid other people's tek I'd they are still active especially when the questions are directly asked to the the op.
My advise...dust that camera off and show these guys what's up:wink:
I would agree to the reasons you stated above and also add cost into the factor...when growing edibles it is a game of pennies so low spawn ratios to get the most bang for your buck but I would indeed encourage to try it out.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24804230 - 11/24/17 06:28 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I bet Kings would do well for edibles using this method. Temperature comes in to play tho

There's a culture of let the OP answer questions in his/her TEK thread

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24804371 - 11/24/17 07:33 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Kings were the one I was thinking I would do it with. But I'd still recommend full quart sawdust ziploc bottles.  Really enjoyed doing kings that way but it wasn't worth the temp control pains.


--------------------
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24804503 - 11/24/17 08:28 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said: dust that camera off and show these guys what's up;)




Have I got surprises for you



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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24804514 - 11/24/17 08:33 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Kings were the one I was thinking I would do it with. But I'd still recommend full quart sawdust ziploc bottles.  Really enjoyed doing kings that way but it wasn't worth the temp control pains.



I think Shiitake and reishi would do well, also using this Tek with a few modifications to the substrate recipe.  Mainly replacing the dung, and or coir with sawdust.  1:1:1:1 sawdust/vermiculite/water/bran.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: hamloaf]
    #24804537 - 11/24/17 08:46 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Reishi definitely does nicely, especially for those cool around-the-house bonsai like displays.
If you keep stock of both Ziploc sizes, you can let antlers grow tall inside quart ziplocs with cracked lids, then transfer the cake to pint containers and water them once the antlers are the height you'd like them to switch to conks at.
cronicr I think that would especially fall into your interests.

Shiitake I do not suspect would do great since they want to grow lumps all around the substrate and don't top-fruit especially well. Definitely one of the surface-area species.

But like I've said you can grow all manners of mushrooms this way, just to varying quality or quantity.

Really that might be a nice aside to using this tek, single-step growing gourmet cakes before deciding to get into throw-away bags etc. and large fruiting chambers.

This tek / pods / culture tek are great for beginners or hobbyists or cubensis nerds while still having incredible expansive ability.  It wouldn't have such expansive power for gourmets but for the hobbyist it could still be a valuable experiment or first taste in edibles (pun intended).


--------------------
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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24804542 - 11/24/17 08:49 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Have you ever worked with any pans in the pods?


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24804547 - 11/24/17 08:51 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)







No idea if I did this correctly it has been forever since I read the specifics of your original write up


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24804563 - 11/24/17 08:57 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

When did you do this?! Is that going on now?


Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Have you ever worked with any pans in the pods?



I haven't.  To my memory they need more air than Cubensis, and I haven't toyed with Pans since after my first couple Cubensis grows.
I meant to see how Galindoi/Tampanensis/CN Mexicana would do inside there despite the confined condition but haven't gotten around to it. I may do that soon.

They all definitely do well in THIS method, inside fruiting cambers.  In fact this method of single-step cake growing can be really solid for a variety of exotics.

When I'm of a mind to fruit stone producers, colonizing fat grains under a fat soil casing then fruiting before stones form has given me a solid yield of mushrooms then formed stones.  Only method where I've been consistently able to get multiple flushes before contam with the species. Stones form faster in fruiting conditions and I think the yield is higher when you water. Water lightly and more seldom.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24804564 - 11/24/17 08:59 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I will keep this in mind if I ever get the hoog spores to germinate.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24804569 - 11/24/17 09:01 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I have 13 going only one colonized and fruiting it was my lc tester the other 12 are about 30% right now...I can't grow indoors on a large scale so I've decided only this method cakes and macs method at this point


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24804578 - 11/24/17 09:05 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Very cool. Like to see what you get.

I love how much growing I can do in a cubic foot with my methods.  I have my exotic grows (including cubie) down to 4 cubic feet of space or less, with no fruiting chambers or electronics other than an LED strip, and I'm at no lack for anything...


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24804583 - 11/24/17 09:08 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I've put too much effort over the years into my outdoor beds and get far more then I'll ever need so any indoor actives are just in the name of science lol..
I'll knock up some pans and stuntzii tomorrow morning and give it a whirl.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: cronicr]
    #24804594 - 11/24/17 09:13 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

"Pan pods."  :smile2:


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24806513 - 11/25/17 09:19 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for the response violet.  i know what you mean, i havent been a member long, but ive lurked for years, and ive read all the drama that went along with your teks.

i was baffled by how much hate they got.  even if the claims you made on yield werent accurate, youd think people would at least acknowledge that the idea is good for beginners struggling with contam problems.

i was kind of shocked at how little open minded-ness there seemed to be, and how much people seemed to be against challenging dogma and tradition... ironic.  it reminded me a lot of the majority attitude in the secular, materialist scientific community.

but i actually agree with most of the logic behind the vteks. it makes perfect sense.

i sell edibles at markets, and im just trying to find a way to consolidate the effort of growing gourmet mushrooms. im tired of dealing with straw and its problems and i cant get sawdust or fuel pellets or wood chips where i live.

i can get corn cheap, 50 lbs for 6 bucks.  im just trying to find an edible i can reasonably produce off bottom watered grain or cased grain.  i agree kings might be the answer. poplars too.  Where i live there's just a lot of extra challenges to producing mushrooms that most other people dont have to deal with, and ive been forced to find a lot of my own solutions, many of which have turned out sub par.

so im going to give v tek a go with kings and poplars on cased corn. if i get any results ill post pics. 

i know kings are supposed to be cold weather but ive had them growing healthy and heartily before inside a myco bag in 80 degree weather.  idk

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: gourmet]
    #24806582 - 11/25/17 10:06 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I'm very up front about my claims on yield. In my teks I offer a potential common range, accounting for some decent but varying multi-spore possibilities.

Culture matters so much. I mean cultures can potentially produce as little as zero by nature.
Cultures can have tons and tons of mushrooms... small, thin, and even still hollow ones.
Cultures can also grow many clusters of fruits tall, dense, and potent.
Internal water movement is crucial to mycelium and with it they can move tens of grams of water away from their culture source to a pin site on plastic. Finding the vigorous water movers can bring this tek to life.

All in all, you pick those monsters cultures out of the mess and see what can happen with these cakes. You don't see it all happen in one big wave from water fluff bulk subs, but you also totally skipped the purchase, process, treatment, inoc, colonization, and disposal of all that large yet low-nutritive material. The cakes can consistently stay whole and strong, picking up water and popping off mushrooms, for longer than many growers would guess. I feel confident that that ace culture to top even my own number beliefs is somewhere in these spore prints waiting to be germed, mated, ran on shallow seed, and plucked from speedy cluster onto agar.

That's the advantage of this tek with Cubensis, and it doesn't even really apply strongly to ALL Cubensis, for sure.

Culture matters so much for the same reason species does. I would be surprised to see many species produce the same high biological efficiency from whole grains as cubensis will with patience and watering.


BTW, corn sucks. Hope you can find some better yet cheaper whole cereal grains, or use brown rice.


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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: Violet]
    #24806589 - 11/25/17 10:09 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Is your beef with corn due to its nutrient content?

Or is it more to do with something else?

  I've tried all the grains in my area, and next to brown rice corn has the lowest endospore count here. The Wbs here is unusable.  I'm mostly using corn for the price.  Rice here is almost a dollar a pound.  I get about 5% contams in my jars. Using brown rice slurry to corn quarts.

Edited by gourmet (11/25/17 10:14 PM)

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Re: V-Tek & Easy Casing layers • Growing from watered whole grains in screw-lid plastics [Re: gourmet]
    #24806591 - 11/25/17 10:10 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

My bet is space...very large kernels very wee containers so space is precious


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