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OfflineDragonChaser
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I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit
    #18607906 - 07/25/13 03:48 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

I've only ever been to one meeting, an NA meeting about 10 years ago at the tender age of 18 (long story, I wasn't addicted to anything other than nicotine), and I found it to be some of the most depressing shit I've ever sat through.

I think it's so self defeating, sitting around talking and listening to people talk about how badly they want to get high, what makes them want to get high, etc.  After I left, I had an insane urge to go smoke a bowl because I had just listened to people talk about getting high for an hour.

The whole "I am an addict, I have no power over my addiction, I need help from a higher power" thing is utter crap too (in my opinion... if you believe this, I won't talk shit to you, this is just how I feel.

In my opinion, you are the only one who has power over your addiction.  It's your choice to take that pill, snort that powder, stick that needle in your arm, or take that drink.  You're the only one who can say yes or no.  Every time you say no your willpower will get a little stronger.

I have been addicted to several things, including heroin, opium, and oxycodone.  I didn't need help from a higher power, and when I decided that the time to kick the habit came, I just kept telling myself that I was the only person who had control, that I was strong enough, that I'd get through it.  And, every time I had thoughts about using, I just thought about how shitty I felt during withdrawals and how it wasn't worth it.  I nursed a healthy resentment towards those drugs.

I was on opiates daily for maybe 6 years, and finally kicked back at the beginning of January.  The entire time I had hidden my use from my parents, and my girlfriend (who became my wife 2 years ago).  When I decided to kick, I figured I'd come out and tell them what the deal was, so they wouldn't worry about how sick I was going to get.  My parents understood and were supportive; my father's brother died of a heroin OD in the 70s, and my mother's mother has been addicted to prescription painkillers since the 70s from all the back surgeries she's had.  She uses fentanyl patches and oxy daily, gets switched around to dilaudid sometimes to manage her tolerance, etc.

I spent about 2 weeks secluded in my apartment not sleeping, having diarrhea and anxiety, sweating every time I tried to lay down, entire body in muscular pain, skin constantly goose-bumping, everything smelled fucked up, my arm pits would smell weird 20 minutes out of the shower... just absolutely friggin miserable.  But I kept that mindset of "I'm stronger than this, I'm in control of my actions, I'm responsible for whatever I do, I can do whatever the fuck I want, and I want THIS".  This is the longest I haven't taken an opiate since I was 17 (I'll be 28 in a week), it'll be 8 months beginning of August.

Since then, I've had only a few random cravings for opiates, that I didn't follow through on.  Every time someone has offered me some, I've just been like, "Dude, you know I'm clean, why the hell would you even ask me that?"

I had a migraine at my wife's aunts house one day, and she offered me some percocet.  That part of your brain, that even after you've retrained your thinking can still niggle at you occasionally was like "free drugs?!", but I turned her down without another thought and opted for a scalp massage instead.

Now, I'm not trying to be all high and mighty because I got clean without help/methadone/rehab/group therapy or whatever, these were my opinions ever since that first NA meeting when I was 18.  The entire time I was getting doped out I knew I was physically addicted, but believed that a lot of the psychological addiction just came from the unpleasantness of going through withdrawals.

Anyway... that's the end of my rant/story.


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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: DragonChaser]
    #18607952 - 07/25/13 04:17 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

That's a pretty awesome story man. I have problems with will power my self. I'm not addicted to any one substance, but I find if I have some thing laying around, i'll make excuses to use it, and binge on it. And if i had access, I could see myself easily slipping into an opiate addiction.
Thanks for sharing, it was inspiring in a sense, and I think I'm going to work on my will power a little more.
Peace and love!


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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: DragonChaser]
    #18608004 - 07/25/13 04:52 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

I feel ya on that second paragraph.  On the other hand, every meeting is different, and I do feel ya and thus prefer to go for the meetings, when I do (been a fucking while), that are more solution-oriented rather than people just bitching about their day.  Like what am I going to do about it, instead of some of the typically younger meetings where it's mostly discreet bragging about how many of what they did, liek it's a fucking contest for who's the biggest baddest junkie.


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: DragonChaser]
    #18608035 - 07/25/13 05:16 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

DragonChaser said:
I've only ever been to one meeting, an NA meeting about 10 years ago at the tender age of 18 (long story, I wasn't addicted to anything other than nicotine), and I found it to be some of the most depressing shit I've ever sat through.

I think it's so self defeating, sitting around talking and listening to people talk about how badly they want to get high, what makes them want to get high, etc.  After I left, I had an insane urge to go smoke a bowl because I had just listened to people talk about getting high for an hour.

The whole "I am an addict, I have no power over my addiction, I need help from a higher power" thing is utter crap too (in my opinion... if you believe this, I won't talk shit to you, this is just how I feel.

In my opinion, you are the only one who has power over your addiction.  It's your choice to take that pill, snort that powder, stick that needle in your arm, or take that drink.  You're the only one who can say yes or no.  Every time you say no your willpower will get a little stronger.

I have been addicted to several things, including heroin, opium, and oxycodone.  I didn't need help from a higher power, and when I decided that the time to kick the habit came, I just kept telling myself that I was the only person who had control, that I was strong enough, that I'd get through it.  And, every time I had thoughts about using, I just thought about how shitty I felt during withdrawals and how it wasn't worth it.  I nursed a healthy resentment towards those drugs.

I was on opiates daily for maybe 6 years, and finally kicked back at the beginning of January.  The entire time I had hidden my use from my parents, and my girlfriend (who became my wife 2 years ago).  When I decided to kick, I figured I'd come out and tell them what the deal was, so they wouldn't worry about how sick I was going to get.  My parents understood and were supportive; my father's brother died of a heroin OD in the 70s, and my mother's mother has been addicted to prescription painkillers since the 70s from all the back surgeries she's had.  She uses fentanyl patches and oxy daily, gets switched around to dilaudid sometimes to manage her tolerance, etc.

I spent about 2 weeks secluded in my apartment not sleeping, having diarrhea and anxiety, sweating every time I tried to lay down, entire body in muscular pain, skin constantly goose-bumping, everything smelled fucked up, my arm pits would smell weird 20 minutes out of the shower... just absolutely friggin miserable.  But I kept that mindset of "I'm stronger than this, I'm in control of my actions, I'm responsible for whatever I do, I can do whatever the fuck I want, and I want THIS".  This is the longest I haven't taken an opiate since I was 17 (I'll be 28 in a week), it'll be 8 months beginning of August.

Since then, I've had only a few random cravings for opiates, that I didn't follow through on.  Every time someone has offered me some, I've just been like, "Dude, you know I'm clean, why the hell would you even ask me that?"

I had a migraine at my wife's aunts house one day, and she offered me some percocet.  That part of your brain, that even after you've retrained your thinking can still niggle at you occasionally was like "free drugs?!", but I turned her down without another thought and opted for a scalp massage instead.

Now, I'm not trying to be all high and mighty because I got clean without help/methadone/rehab/group therapy or whatever, these were my opinions ever since that first NA meeting when I was 18.  The entire time I was getting doped out I knew I was physically addicted, but believed that a lot of the psychological addiction just came from the unpleasantness of going through withdrawals.

Anyway... that's the end of my rant/story.





I agree and disagree. I think anyone worth living can defeat an addiction of any kind on his own, but it seems most of the useless people on this earth have no will and result to higher powers (that do jack shit) based on fear or w/e. I don't really care, the weak can subcome to their addictions, they weren't useful anyway.



But I'm just an asshole, so fuck you all.


--------------------


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OfflineDragonChaser
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: Parrott]
    #18608046 - 07/25/13 05:20 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

You and I have opposite "possession" issues I think...  Like, if I run out of bud, I feel the urge to go out and get some immediately, so that I'll be sure I have some when I need it.  If I have bud, it can sit around for months and not get touched.  Some of my stashes are over 2 years old, vacuum sealed and in a deep freeze.

I get the same way with uppers.  If they're laying around, I don't feel tempted to take them, but if I don't have any, I'm like crap, what if a situation arises where I need it?  What if I can't sleep all night before an important meeting?!  What will I do without a stim to keep me peppy?!

But, back when I was using opiates a lot, if I had dilaudid laying around, I could barely resist the urge to snort one.  I could hold off on percs, fent patches, a bag of dope, etc., but if I knew there was even one dilaudid left, I'd think about it all day, then lay awake thinking about it in bed until finally saying "fuck it, I'm chopping it up, pulverizing it, and putting that bastard up my nose". 

I was pretty blatant about my opiate use too... In college I'd do pre-made lines of dilaudid I had crushed up in sealed off straws, in the math lab (I was a math major).  Just open straw, dump powder, make line, use straw to snort.  Immediately discard straw.  I was over at a friends house once, snorting heroin in her bathroom... sound echoed like a mofo in that house, and when I came out, she was upset, being like "Were you doing coke in there?!  I heard you snorting!".  I just looked her straight in the eye, completely serious face, and said "No, I was doing heroin.  Coke is bad for you".  She didn't believe me, and I repeated several more times that I swore I was actually doing heroin before she dropped it because she didn't want to argue.  It was hysterical.

I had nodded off around my parents, wife, other relatives including in-laws, friends of the family and so on, on oxy, opium, heroin, and fent, (all on different occasions) and just passed it off as being overtired.  I'd regularly drink laxative tea at my parent's house to combat the constipation caused by all the dope.  No one ever caught on.  I guess it's just my personality, people that know me don't see me as a junkie.

But I'm really glad you got something from what I had to say... I honestly didn't think anyone would find it inspirational, or get anything from it, I just wanted to throw my view out there because of a TV show I'm watching and this guy is in an NA meeting and the old frustration came back... but yeah, I guess if I'm giving out advice, it is this:

You are in control; if you're addicted, you can break the cycle if it's what you really want.  You are not powerless over your addiction, it is powerless to you- you just have to grab the reigns and take control, and just ride out the bumps until the road is smooth again.  If you can't go cold turkey, then wean.  Find a way.  Don't listen to the "you are an addict, you are powerless over your addiction" lines. 

You are not an "addict".  You may have an addiction, but you are a fucking human being- you may be a painter, a writer, a student, a scientist, a mother, whatever... Don't let "addict" define who you are.  To reduce who you are to a single word is inane and counter productive to you beating your addiction.  If you want to seek outside help, whether for emotional support, or for medical reasons, then so be it.  If you want to do the "man's man" way of suffering (in silence), then so be it.  Picture what your life would be like now if you had kicked months ago.  Keep that image in your head, but not as something to obsess and beat yourself up over, but as something to look forward to.


I knew a guy, he was a heroin addict for a solid 5 years who I was getting my dope from last summer, who injected (I always just snorted).  He got off heroin by going on suboxone (not an option for everyone, especially if you don't want a medical record of your addiction) going to the gym daily to help his mood and only taking prescription painkillers when he got the urge to get high.  Last I heard from him he had even stopped doing that.

But I watched him do a shot in the bathroom of a McDonalds one time (we were in the handicapped stall, he had to use his belt to tie his arm off and I wanted to watch).  It was honestly made me cringe.  Doctors giving me shots, me donating blood, it never bothers me, I like to watch as they do it.  But watching this dude stick a needle in his arm, pull on the plunger to see if he had hit a vein, then shoot the entire load into said vein, for some reason just made me cringe and feel super dirty.  I couldn't get the image out of my head, so a few days later I flushed my stash (which was huge, because i mean, I LOVED dope at the time) and felt like crap for a week until I got a solid oxy and dilaudid connect.

And of course, things that good must always end... either by the connect disappearing, you running out of funds, or kicking.  I chose to kick, cold turkey.  A couple friends would come visit me, or my roomie would come sit with me, knowing how rough I was feeling trying to offer comfort, and it was funny because I'd end up comforting them.  I'd never let the convo stay on how I'm feeling for more than a few seconds.  Then I'd offer to help my room mate with her math homework (she was the big reason I kicked- she was a friend from high school, 6 months pregnant, working 2 minimum wage jobs and going to a community college, living in a bad place with bad people... I asked my wife if it was okay if she came in and took our spare bedroom for cheap, and she was cool with it).  I didn't want to be getting doped out around a pregnant woman, or, eventually, her baby.

Then my friend would come over to check on me... him with all his built up emotions over the girl who had just broken his heart.  I'd quickly change the subject away from me and my body pains and crawling skin and diarrhea to how he was hanging in there, and he'd let it all out, and after we relaxed and played Mario for the Wii he'd leave, thanking me for helping him feel better, and I'd get an email from his mom telling me thanks, that she was afraid he was turning suicidal, but that I seem to be the only one able to help him at the moment.

Couple other friends like that too... it seemed as I was kicking, all my close friends were going through some type of crisis, so every time they came over I would turn it into a private therapy session, rather than a discussion about "if I'm staying strong", "how I'm feeling", "do I want to get high", etc.  I think that proved therapeutic too, knowing that while I was suffering physically and mentally to kick something I had brought on myself, I was helping other people cope with their own problems.  It gave me some positive emotional energy to ride on.


--------------------
My name is Mud


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OfflineDragonChaser
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: ganjfather]
    #18608072 - 07/25/13 05:31 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ganjfather said:
I agree and disagree. I think anyone worth living can defeat an addiction of any kind on his own, but it seems most of the useless people on this earth have no will and result to higher powers (that do jack shit) based on fear or w/e. I don't really care, the weak can subcome to their addictions, they weren't useful anyway.



But I'm just an asshole, so fuck you all.




You're not an asshole, I tend to separate people into the "worth having" and "useless" categories too... then I try to look past that view, because I know it's a view that's been ingrained in me a long time, and see parts of them I hadn't seen before, and ignore my dichotomy of "worth living" and "useless".

Also, I have to wonder... are the "useless" people useless because they have no will, or do they have no will simply because they're truly useless?  I must believe in the former... willpower can be developed and strengthened.  It's just that so many people never tried to train their minds; it seems a good portion of people have weak impulse control, weak willpower, aren't very well read, and aren't very open minded.

The good news is, people can change all those things about themselves.  Is your apartment a mess because you're a slob?  Start throwing away one thing a day.  After a bit, start washing the dishes right after you eat.  Go on like that.  No impulse control and in debt?  Pull out your credit card statement for the past month or two and go over it.  Cross necessities like gas, food, and medicines off.  Go through the rest of the charges, and ask yourself, did I really need that?  Is there any way I could have gotten it cheaper?  Add up what you could have saved had you not made the impulse buys.  Every time you go shopping and pick something up, ask yourself "is this a want, or is this a need".


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OfflineDragonChaser
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: DragonChaser]
    #18608075 - 07/25/13 05:33 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

I'm just going to keep posting in this thread until I have enough positive material to publish a self help book.  Then I can donate 10% of the proceeds to the Shroomery, and become a supporter.


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: DragonChaser]
    #18608100 - 07/25/13 05:50 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

DragonChaser said:
Quote:

ganjfather said:
I agree and disagree. I think anyone worth living can defeat an addiction of any kind on his own, but it seems most of the useless people on this earth have no will and result to higher powers (that do jack shit) based on fear or w/e. I don't really care, the weak can subcome to their addictions, they weren't useful anyway.



But I'm just an asshole, so fuck you all.




You're not an asshole, I tend to separate people into the "worth having" and "useless" categories too... then I try to look past that view, because I know it's a view that's been ingrained in me a long time, and see parts of them I hadn't seen before, and ignore my dichotomy of "worth living" and "useless".

Also, I have to wonder... are the "useless" people useless because they have no will, or do they have no will simply because they're truly useless?  I must believe in the former... willpower can be developed and strengthened.  It's just that so many people never tried to train their minds; it seems a good portion of people have weak impulse control, weak willpower, aren't very well read, and aren't very open minded.

The good news is, people can change all those things about themselves.  Is your apartment a mess because you're a slob?  Start throwing away one thing a day.  After a bit, start washing the dishes right after you eat.  Go on like that.  No impulse control and in debt?  Pull out your credit card statement for the past month or two and go over it.  Cross necessities like gas, food, and medicines off.  Go through the rest of the charges, and ask yourself, did I really need that?  Is there any way I could have gotten it cheaper?  Add up what you could have saved had you not made the impulse buys.  Every time you go shopping and pick something up, ask yourself "is this a want, or is this a need".





I get what your saying, having to see all sides. My only thought is that, I was once there. I once felt like I couldn't control my actions, and not until every person I "loved" abandoned me because I was a worthless human being, I realized that "hey, I am being a piece of fucking shit" "I can control whatever the fuck I do" "I'm not running some pre determined course, I actually have choices".

People that just completely ignore the fact that they are in control of their lives kind of piss me off.

And of course, they are different human beings, and maybe they can't stop being that way. Well, fuck em :shrug:, I'm not gonna waste time fretting over and trying to understand somebody that can't be understood. In my opinion, if you are not a piece of the puzzle that this world is building, then get the fuck out of our puzzle box.

They can go live in some hole they just can't get out of, and I'm gonna keep on moving forward, because hey, me trying to do something that can't be done is just insane (of course I don't believe that they can't change and be in control of themselves, but if they are too stubborn to figure it out... maybe next time :wink:)


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OfflineDragonChaser
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: PsychedelicSpirit]
    #18608141 - 07/25/13 06:08 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

PsychedelicSpirit said:
I feel ya on that second paragraph.  On the other hand, every meeting is different, and I do feel ya and thus prefer to go for the meetings, when I do (been a fucking while), that are more solution-oriented rather than people just bitching about their day.  Like what am I going to do about it, instead of some of the typically younger meetings where it's mostly discreet bragging about how many of what they did, liek it's a fucking contest for who's the biggest baddest junkie.




I respect that.  Maybe I just went to a crappy meeting.

But, I still hate the whole "I'm an addict, powerless over my addiction, need help from a higher power" thing.  It's like asking people to fully submit to their addiction, instead of standing up and giving it a proper kick in the jewels, then laughing over it while it's laying on the ground and yelling at it to stay down.

The entire time during the meeting when someone would stand up and go "hello, I'm ______ and I'm an addict" I had the urge to stand up and yell "Hi!  My name is DragonChaser, I'm a college student, chronic masturbator, I have a neurotic personality, and I like drugs a lot, but I hate reducing the whole of my being to a one-fucking-word label!"

I prefer the way the Germans looked at it, after WWII anyway.  I don't know if they use new words today, but if a soldier was injured and became addicted to morphine, they called him "morphiumsuchen" which means like "morphine-seeky"... as in, they have a tendency to seek out morphine.

"Addict" and "alcoholic" have such filthy connotations in America... whenever I hear people calling themselves an addict (and meaning it), it would, for me, be like seeing a black guy sitting there staring down and saying "Man... I am such a stupid nigger."  I would just be like... dude, wtf?  My family (parents, aunt, uncle and cousins) kept saying that my cousin M was an alcoholic.  He had quit drinking, but his self esteem was really low, because people would treat him differently whenever we were going out to eat.  "M, is it okay if I order a beer?  Will that bother you?" and he would say no, then look obviously embarrassed (to me). 

I think I was drunk at the time, or amped on addy, and I flipped out (flipped out being a strong word- I didn't cuss, or yell, I just seized the conversation and everyone's attention).  I told them to quit labeling him an alcoholic, because when you say the word alcoholic you may picture a homeless bum, or a businessman with his 8th scotch of the evening hammered like he is every evening, or any other number of unflattering images.

I told everyone that he was a smart programmer, a good soccer playing, a loving son, a good brother, and soon to be husband, who has for some reason lost his willpower over how much is too much and how often is too often.

Basically, everyone stopped treating him like he was made of glass and stopped referring to him as an alcoholic.  After like a year, he's now able to drink socially again, limiting himself to 1 or 2 beers or 1 glass of wine (at cookouts and the like).  He hasn't gotten drunk in over a year (I think his wife would kick his ass if he did), and I asked him if he ever gets the urge to go overboard and say screw the limits while he's having a beer at a cookout or whatever.  He said sometimes he wants to really cut loose, but then he remembers how he used to act when he was drunk and the memories are enough to turn his stomach and set the beer he currently has down for a while, while he talks or does other things.

It might differ from person to person, I just don't really believe that once you've become "addicted" to something, you always will be and must forever abstain or else all the time you've accomplished has been lost.  Your brain is an amazing organ; you can train and retrain it.


--------------------
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Re: I think the mantra of NA/AA is utter bullshit [Re: ganjfather]
    #18608156 - 07/25/13 06:20 AM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Quote:

ganjfather said:
I get what your saying, having to see all sides. My only thought is that, I was once there. I once felt like I couldn't control my actions, and not until every person I "loved" abandoned me because I was a worthless human being, I realized that "hey, I am being a piece of fucking shit" "I can control whatever the fuck I do" "I'm not running some pre determined course, I actually have choices".

People that just completely ignore the fact that they are in control of their lives kind of piss me off.

And of course, they are different human beings, and maybe they can't stop being that way. Well, fuck em :shrug:, I'm not gonna waste time fretting over and trying to understand somebody that can't be understood. In my opinion, if you are not a piece of the puzzle that this world is building, then get the fuck out of our puzzle box.

They can go live in some hole they just can't get out of, and I'm gonna keep on moving forward, because hey, me trying to do something that can't be done is just insane (of course I don't believe that they can't change and be in control of themselves, but if they are too stubborn to figure it out... maybe next time :wink:)




The part I put in bold made me bust out laughing!  That was a good line man.

I mean, I understand needing help.  There's nothing wrong with asking for help if you think you need it... and I guess I had a better background than most.  I had a really good support structure, came from a good family with good education, had good willpower and self control to begin with, so I had a solid foundation to build years of drug abuse on.

When I started doing drugs (pot and alcohol) at 15, I promised myself I would never lie, cheat or steal to get drugs or money for drugs, and that I would never sell any of my own property.  That's the line in the sand.  The line which I do not cross.  I went through minor to bad opiate withdrawal a few dozen times over the years before I finally kicked after my habit had reached it's height and I went through the granddaddy withdrawal in January. 

Whenever my habit was getting to the point where I was considering stealing, or selling my shit, or lying to borrow money, I would immediately kick and let the WDs remind me that I brought it on myself, that my choices had brought me there, and that the WDs were the punishment for all the doped out good times I'd been having.  The pain of the WDs was not only the result of not resorting to stealing or whatever to get money, but it was my own little week long slap to my face for even considering it.


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My name is Mud


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( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
Poor Boy 2,515 134 01/20/12 09:52 AM
by blkjkrabbit
* obama's speech= retarded bullshit
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
TheFakeSunRa 1,717 80 01/28/10 04:21 PM
by Devin43
* Just went to my 1st NA meeting today Morican 564 8 08/11/11 10:08 AM
by Morican

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