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OfflineLion
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Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools
    #16862400 - 09/17/12 01:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It's my opinion that entheogens are indeed beneficial tools for awakening and spiritual growth.  Not always, not exclusively, but generally.  My evidence is circumstantial: I know a lot of people who still use entheogens, and who believe in their use as spiritual tools, who are interesting and compassionate people who function at a high level.  And I know quite a few dull people who argue that "once you get the message, you hang up the phone" and all of that nonsense.

Also, I think that when I used to use entheogens like LSD and psilocybin, I lived in a much more spiritually-oriented head space.  I was more compassionate and patient, and found more beauty and mystery in the world and in myself.  I was also significantly less organized and functional in social situations, but that is maybe not as relevant. :lol:

Anyway, let's re-open this can of worms, shall we?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16862439 - 09/17/12 01:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I like to call them philosophical tools. They are great tools for spiritual and philosophical expansion and contemplation.

Just like tools can be used for fun, for good or bad, or for spiritual reasons so too can psychedelics be used for the same purposes.

Its just the builder who determines how the tools are used.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16862471 - 09/17/12 01:20 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i think they can definitely be valuable spiritual aids - but my one criticism is that the benefits don't seem to last a long time after you stop using them. like you said, you used to be in a better space when you used them than now (and i've had the same experience). i find meditation is a lot slower in terms of progress but doesn't feel like something i'd lose the benefits of quite as easily - though i've never taken an extended break from it to tell so i really can't compare them too well. but i found i'd often have "great insights" while on them and then be in a great state for a week during the afterglow - but then it'd fade away and i'd forget everything :lol: like on an ayahuasca trip i experienced what at the time felt like 'infinite spiritual perfection' but unfortunately it didn't last afterwards.

the question imo would be how can one maximize long-term (as opposed to just short-term) benefits from psychedelic usage. i think it would take more planning in their usage than what many (including me) usually put into it, but that's just a guess.

psychedelics are something i'd like to revisit / try using again - it's been quite a while for me. i think the best benefits of psych's would come when they're teamed up with a consistent sober practice


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OfflineLion
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: deff]
    #16862513 - 09/17/12 01:26 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
i think they can definitely be valuable spiritual aids - but my one criticism is that the benefits don't seem to last a long time after you stop using them. like you said, you used to be in a better space when you used them than now (and i've had the same experience). i find meditation is a lot slower in terms of progress but doesn't feel like something i'd lose the benefits of quite as easily - though i've never taken an extended break from it to tell so i really can't compare them too well. but i found i'd often have "great insights" while on them and then be in a great state for a week during the afterglow - but then it'd fade away and i'd forget everything :lol: like on an ayahuasca trip i experienced what at the time felt like 'infinite spiritual perfection' but unfortunately it didn't last afterwards.

the question imo would be how can one maximize long-term (as opposed to just short-term) benefits from psychedelic usage. i think it would take more planning in their usage than what many (including me) usually put into it, but that's just a guess.

psychedelics are something i'd like to revisit / try using again - it's been quite a while for me. i think the best benefits of psych's would come when they're teamed up with a consistent sober practice


I agree with most of this, but I'd also add that experiencing infinite spiritual perfection is pretty invaluable, and many holy men and meditators go a lifetime without glimpsing anything of the sort.  Entheogens do seem to be better when coupled with a consistent practice, though, and when used with care and intention.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: deff]
    #16862526 - 09/17/12 01:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The past few years of my life I have been traveling and moving around a lot so there have many long dry periods with no use of anything mind altering other than coffee.

That lifestyle forced me to take up the idea that entheogens are supposed to be transitory. The physical effects are not supposed to be long lasting but the impression is what it meant to last. Its like going to a class thats about 6hours long. Take notes remember as much as the teacher said then go out into the world and apply what you learned.

When I personally learned that death is not the 'end' while on ayahuasca I almost forgot that several weeks later and became frustrated by how little time I had to do something. Then I remembered what I had learned, I stopped looked around and REminded myself of this. Its just a ride, and a song and the point is to dance one way while this music is playing and then to dance another way when the next song comes on.

Does that make sense?

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16862546 - 09/17/12 01:33 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

true! it's just a shame that it didn't last :lol:
(but an incredible glimpse nonetheless)


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: deff]
    #16862566 - 09/17/12 01:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

:highfive:

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16862567 - 09/17/12 01:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Greenvalley said:
The past few years of my life I have been traveling and moving around a lot so there have many long dry periods with no use of anything mind altering other than coffee.

That lifestyle forced me to take up the idea that entheogens are supposed to be transitory. The physical effects are not supposed to be long lasting but the impression is what it meant to last. Its like going to a class thats about 6hours long. Take notes remember as much as the teacher said then go out into the world and apply what you learned.

When I personally learned that death is not the 'end' while on ayahuasca I almost forgot that several weeks later and became frustrated by how little time I had to do something. Then I remembered what I had learned, I stopped looked around and REminded myself of this. Its just a ride, and a song and the point is to dance one way while this music is playing and then to dance another way when the next song comes on.

Does that make sense?




yeah that makes sense! though i found the certainty that accompanied these insights would fade when the drug wore off. so while i'd be left with remnants of the psychedelic realizations, it was a lot easier to doubt them than while on the drugs. and to be balanced, i also had what later seemed to be very crazy / delusional ideas while on them.

i'd be really interested in trying a low dose of lsd with meditation i think though :smile:


--------------------


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: deff]
    #16862583 - 09/17/12 01:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

microdosing is where its at!

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16862593 - 09/17/12 01:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yeah big doses imo bring in a lot of delusional thinking (but can be fun)

low doses are like hooking yourself up to a car battery - extra energy/awareness/creativity ime :laugh:


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16862628 - 09/17/12 01:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Nice one :mushroom2:

Im planning to trip this weekend, really looking forward to it as it's been at least a few months... and i've recently got into fasting & think it will help the whole process along... should be interesting

I used to subscribe to the whole 'once you get message hang up the phone' thing, i used to think that mushrooms were there just to open your eyes, then you start on the path & leave them behind... i used to say things like 'i dont need them anymore' implying im beyond such things

Then after a couple years i was firmly on the path (and swiftly on my way thanks to yourself:wink:) and i experimented again, that's when i came to see they really can be a tool for the serious aspirant, not just a mere eye opener but actual teachers/purifiers for 'serious' meditators, i grew distasteful of sensually enjoying the trip looking for the best playlist, trip toys, food, or best scenery to appreciate, and i started to go into darkness & take it seriously, now this is just words, but in the moment when it grips you, you take it deadly seriously

So all of this is just bullshit talk unless put into practice, and thats whats so beautiful about it, the entheogenesist (made up word)has to put it into practice or he's a total fake! And when you do put it into practice they make you eat your words, all your newly aquired spiritual knowledge, postering, pretense & practices, if the dose is high enough they destroy them, they strip you naked

This is what its about, direct naked experience of the divine, not about aquiring new knowledge pretending like you know/have found something like some spiritual seeking goes (neo-advaitans), its about actually finding it, and being thoroughly silenced by that discovery
I've seen friends that usually can not stop talking for 30 seconds be totally silenced for hours by mushrooms

Even after saying all this, i don't recommend them to anyone, i dont want to make it sound glamorous or like they will enlighten you, mostly because i don't think anyone (probably including myself to an extent) approaches them seriously enough to consider them a totally true tool, plus for some they might just not be part of their path

I endorse mushrooms anonymously on an internet forum that is dedicated to mushrooms, but i would never endorse them enmasse/publically as a tool to gain enlightenment, make of that what you will :shrug:


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Edited by Chronic7 (09/17/12 01:53 PM)

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OfflineSeanfu
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: deff]
    #16862796 - 09/17/12 02:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
yeah big doses imo bring in a lot of delusional thinking (but can be fun)

low doses are like hooking yourself up to a car battery - extra energy/awareness/creativity ime :laugh:




Big doses so overwhelm you that you can reconnect with the stillness that some believe is god... Where I do agree about low doses.

To OP about spiritual connection I say you should use ketamin or MXE... Its fantastic and kills all death anxiety.


--------------------
I am a chronic liar.

:etjesus: :whacker: :coleman: :awewtf:

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Seanfu]
    #16862831 - 09/17/12 02:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yeah true - big doses have their benefits too. and i think people react differently to small vs large doses. sometimes a small dose can be so much more intense than a large one when other conditions are right. and like chronic said, sensory deprivation is the way to go imo :sun:


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Chronic7]
    #16863307 - 09/17/12 03:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Chronic, I'm planning on tripping too this weekend. Haven't tripped since the summer. :mushroom2: :sun:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16863407 - 09/17/12 03:50 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, how sad I used to feel when I came down from the novelty and illumination of one of my early acid trips. Once, I stayed riveted, with great effort, to the here & now for three days. It was like a continued trip without the visuals or euphoria. But, over the past 40 years, I have learned that the message of the book BE HERE NOW is the single most significant teaching from psychedelics. It is the Realization of the Eternal Now (as theologian Paul Tillich put it) that constitutes life 'in the spirit.' It is, in its more intense form, a dissociation from the usual identification of our awareness with our body, its sensations, our ever-changing emotions, our thoughts, and our memories. This is the truer me, the Witness which resides in the Hridayam, the Heart Cave, Tiphereth, the seed syllable HUM. In it most intense form, these psychophysical aspects can vanish altogether, and awareness can become aware of itself AS pure identity - Clear Light which is "Unbearable Compassion" (at least in one unforgettable experience I was blessed with). The Witness is then aware of the Infinite and Eternal inasmuch as the limits of embodied awareness can bear. It is the experience symbolized by the seed syllable OM.

When I an truly Present, anxieties regarding my future, and depressive regrets regarding my past, vanish. I am a better listener, and as a counselor, I have seen time and again, the healing power of simply listening to others. I am more patient, less driven, less desiring, more content simply to pull weeds as an exercise in 'no-mind.' Animals are more responsive, both wild and domestic, and so are young children. These 'horizontal' relationships with nature and people results from the integration of the Infinite in the finite. In the experience of OM, we open ourselves and dissolve into the Infinite. In the experience of HUM, the Infinite descends into the finite. This is the esoteric meaning behind Christ tabernacling on Earth. We Realize ourselves as both temporal and as Infinite, simultaneously.

Now, I challenge myself to go for longer and longer periods without taking psychedelics. I know what I'm going to find there, and instead, I ask myself what is getting in the way of just Being. It is true that even on a gram or two of mushrooms, pulling weeds while listening to music on the outdoor patio speakers, the songs last a whole lot longer, and are quite a bit richer, even though the good speakers are indoors. Nevertheless, I am a whole lot more in the moment, and less in my thoughts, than I used to be, and apparently, most everyone I encounter in the course of the day is irretrievably lost in the pasts and futures of their minds. Few people indicate any contentedness. Even the character who gloats all year about his impending retirement and trip around Europe, returns to teach again a year later, and plans on buying a big, new house for his wife, instead of scaling down as most people logically do in retirement. Why? A retired counselor now works full days, for free! Why? He is a living fossil, ossified in his job, and perhaps he likes young girls a bit too much for it to be wholesome in his late 60s. He has NO life. Even some of the younger teachers can be found in their classrooms by custodians, at 9:00 PM, talking to themselves while reading magazines. It is a wonder to me that in the vacuity of peoples' inner lives, more lives are not taken. There is only banal existence, rife with unfulfilled desires and desperation. Nobody, but nobody has ever experienced the ecstasy of just Being.

Those of you who might complain about the faded glow of a trip should count your blessings. I know a personal injury attorney with millions in the bank, whose wife divorced his obnoxious self, got a $400K house, $1 million in cash, 3 college educations for her kids, and $4000 a month alimony. HE can't find new love, just gold-diggers. He is 'monkey-mind' in a high-performance Porsche. His new girlfriends get what they can from him (boob jobs, BMWs, tuition for law school, European vacations), then split. He took acid back in the day, but you know, it was "just a drug." I try not to have much to do with him, and now, I'm avoiding the couple I met him through because they have never, and will never allow themselves to learn by experience of psychedelics or a meditative discipline, or by a book like The Power of Now, what I am trying to convey here. Whenever we have spent a Saturday night with them over the last 16 years - the movie 'Groundhog Day' comes to mind. The horror of repetition, and the feeling of having been sought out simply because of his terminal boredom, yet nothing of my personal interests have EVER been drawn on. All we have been is someone else who has a house to eat the same purchased food in, the same chit-chat about "the kids," or work, and then the woman falls asleep at 10:00 PM every time! If you have been awakened, then you realize that multitudes of people are as Gurdjieff said, "asleep." They go through robotic movements and at face value seem sentient, until you realize as Baba Hari Das said in The Yellow Book, "There is no present, only the past repeating. Try to understand this."

God bless all of you who want to awaken from The Matrix.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16864128 - 09/17/12 05:55 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have had some really interesting so far, had a blast and learnt quite a bit but most of the changes have been somewhat temporary though I do feel certain things have stuck. I've greatly enjoyed most of them but sadly find it difficult to use them now due to a problem with physical pain while on them.

The one drug that did alter my perception for good and seems to me to be conducive of awakenings as a sudden insight rather than just experience is salvia, but that's just me and I've also had similar things happen sober so i guess any drug has that potential. Guess I just found that with psychedelics like mushrooms and acid you get caught up in an emotional world and kinda distracted by it and that kind of thing doesn't happen. My theory is that it doesn't seem to enhance the receptors involved with processing novelty as other psychedelics do.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (09/17/12 06:05 PM)

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16864170 - 09/17/12 06:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Markos, I don't always find common ground with your posts on esoteric subjects, but that was a cracker. :thumbup:


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Grapefruit]
    #16864229 - 09/17/12 06:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

How is an insight not an experience? How could non-ordinary experiences reveal the nature of the experiencer, or absence thereof?

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Middleman]
    #16864284 - 09/17/12 06:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Sure you're right, I didn't mean it literally. They are both experiences of a different kind. I was just trying to get across the difference I felt between the two experiences and the language became muddled as opposed to clear.

But yeah your question is a good one and makes me stop in my tracks a second. :blush:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Revisiting entheogens as spiritual tools [Re: Lion]
    #16865008 - 09/17/12 08:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It is ridiculously simple.  Keep your main consciousness completely aware.  No mind intent whatsoever.  Dose on said entheogens without any distractions that would take you away from main consciousness awareness.  Dose high enough and you reach your Point Of Origin.  This is your first awareness of Self Sentience.  Return there often and you reinforce every single lesson you have ever learned in every incarnation.  You should never hang up the phone!

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