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Memories
Manic Hedonist

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 5,150
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Models of Behavior

#16681834 - 08/11/12 02:23 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

In psychology, there are different models for human behavior. Which do you think provide the most accurate description of what is going on?

I think Becker's ideas seem to describe things pretty well, but in my own case, I think seeking pleasant stimuli is what drives me. To be honest, I think all human behavior can be summarized as the seeking of pleasant stimuli. We have evolved to associate things as negative or positive depending on their survival value.

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"I noticed that the feeling from mxe is better when you refrain from masturbating a day or two before, a few times when I masturbated before usage I got this WEIRD look in my eyes and it caused me to not be able to have eye contact with people, my eyes were more squinted and my face looked more puffy, but without masterbating that day or the day before I felt great, it actually felt somewhat like a different drug.

Anyone notice this?"

- Chowder963

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LunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 10,700
Loc: The Hand

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16681855 - 08/11/12 02:27 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

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Don't submit to dogma.

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,881
Loc: underbelly

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16681955 - 08/11/12 02:49 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

They say that even very primitive organisms do two basic things. Move away from pain and toward pleasure. It's quite likely that we are similar. Now it may be that cultural programing favors one more than the other but both are still at play it seems. When danger is past most animals seek comfort and curiosity is stimulated. This would indicate to me how both are present and play a part. However an animals first instinct is to self preservation. Many animals are willing to live in quite uncomfortable conditions to attempt to survive, giving up pleasure and it's pursuit. This might indicate the move away from pain and it's symbolic connection to death as a prime mover.

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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous

“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson

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Memories
Manic Hedonist

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 5,150
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Icelander]
#16681973 - 08/11/12 02:52 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Living and life affirming feelings are positive stimuli. It just so happens that associating such things as positive is highly advantageous evolutionarily.

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16682024 - 08/11/12 03:03 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

I'm not disputing that. I acknowledge that both are important. Still the animal that risks ignoring fear is in more immediate danger usually than the one that forgoes pleasure. Yet I hardly think that ultimately species survival is possible without both.

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LunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 10,700
Loc: The Hand

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16682032 - 08/11/12 03:06 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Memories said:
Living and life affirming feelings are positive stimuli. It just so happens that associating such things as positive is highly advantageous evolutionarily.

Is that so? I thought survival was more about being cautious and aware and not getting eaten by the tiger. Not feeling good about the beautiful day and heading down to sit by the river.

--------------------
Don't submit to dogma.

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LunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 10,700
Loc: The Hand

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Icelander]
#16682052 - 08/11/12 03:10 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
They say that even very primitive organisms do two basic things. Move away from pain and toward pleasure. It's quite likely that we are similar. Now it may be that cultural programing favors one more than the other but both are still at play it seems. When danger is past most animals seek comfort and curiosity is stimulated. This would indicate to me how both are present and play a part. However an animals first instinct is to self preservation. Many animals are willing to live in quite uncomfortable conditions to attempt to survive, giving up pleasure and it's pursuit. This might indicate the move away from pain and it's symbolic connection to death as a prime mover.

Who are "they" and how would they know what two basic things "very primitive organisms" do? Got any kind of a link, a study, a hypothesis, anything? Or did you just pull that out of "you know where"?

--------------------
Don't submit to dogma.

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,881
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: LunarEclipse]
#16682113 - 08/11/12 03:22 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_pleasure

.. nerve cells into the dorsal horn of the spinal cord through the dorsal roots. ... will move towards something that causes pleasure and will move away from something that causes pain.

Sorry, thought it was common knowledge.

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16682137 - 08/11/12 03:27 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Memories said:
Living and life affirming feelings are positive stimuli. It just so happens that associating such things as positive is highly advantageous evolutionarily.

Ran across this in my search. Just presenting it without comment or validation.

http://www.kevinhogan.com/sales-selling-technique6.htm

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 1 month, 13 days

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Memories]
#16682427 - 08/11/12 04:26 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

I don't think any model of behavior can be accurate enough for me to take seriously.
I don't think you can summarize "all human behavior".

There is diversity even among dogs. Some like to run and get the ball. Some don't. Some get the ball and bring it back to you. Some just hold on to it and chew.
It all depends on the breed and how you raise and train the animal.

The same can be said for humans. A big part is genetics, then upbringing and finally how the human adapts to his surroundings as an adult.

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---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,881
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16682437 - 08/11/12 04:28 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

There is diversity even among dogs. Some like to run and get the ball. Some don't. Some get the ball and bring it back to you. Some just hold on to it and chew.
It all depends on the breed and how you raise and train the animal.

Depends on what you are modeling. Having been a dog trainer and dog owner for much of my life I've never seen a dog that didn't show fear or aggression. I accept that as a fact about dogs.

Ball chasing is something else.

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redgreenvines
irregular verb

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,962

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16682476 - 08/11/12 04:37 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

skinner - for the model of operant conditioning (but really this is about habit & memory)
& rd laing (because he made craziness normal - i.e. took the roof off our minds)

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~~~~~

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Memories
Manic Hedonist

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 5,150
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16683038 - 08/11/12 06:37 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

I agree that these models are poor descriptions of what is happening. Real understanding will come through further application of the scientific method to further understanding the brain.

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Icelander]
#16683766 - 08/11/12 09:29 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
There is diversity even among dogs. Some like to run and get the ball. Some don't. Some get the ball and bring it back to you. Some just hold on to it and chew.
It all depends on the breed and how you raise and train the animal.

Depends on what you are modeling. Having been a dog trainer and dog owner for much of my life I've never seen a dog that didn't show fear or aggression. I accept that as a fact about dogs.

Ball chasing is something else.

Fear is an innate emotion. Establishing that all members of a certain animal species experience it, isn't really that difficult.

--------------------

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Icelander
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16683863 - 08/11/12 09:48 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Right, but were are dealing with the topic of fear here in the OP with Becker's ideas and not ball chasing?

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johnm214

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,582
Loc: Americas

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16684407 - 08/11/12 11:39 PM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
I don't think any model of behavior can be accurate enough for me to take seriously.
I don't think you can summarize "all human behavior".

I don't think you're using the word "accurate" correctly- or your just wrong. I recall we've had this same discussion previously regarding 'accuracy'. Saying humans move around is an accurate model of human behavior, so your obviously incorrect.

Quote:

There is diversity even among dogs. Some like to run and get the ball. Some don't. Some get the ball and bring it back to you. Some just hold on to it and chew.
It all depends on the breed and how you raise and train the animal.

The same can be said for humans. A big part is genetics, then upbringing and finally how the human adapts to his surroundings as an adult.

None of this contradicts the original poster's argument- even if you operate under the novel definitions you seem to be using.

Quote:

jivJaN said:

Fear is an innate emotion. Establishing that all members of a certain animal species experience it, isn't really that difficult.

So why did you say otherwise? If its trivial to model dog behavior, or humans, as tending to avoid fear, your wrong to say such a model isn't accurate. You contradict yourself in the span of two posts.

I suspect a lot of this crap is related to the desire to be seen as an intelligent actor. Its the same way people feel creeped out by notions of illusory free will. Its unpleasant to think yourself not powerful in certain ways- the alcoholic keeps telling himself he could easily quit, but just doesn't want to... obviously he's wrong.

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jivJaN
yes

Registered: 08/09/08
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Last seen: 1 month, 13 days

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: johnm214]
#16685598 - 08/12/12 03:34 AM (9 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

So why did you say otherwise? If its trivial to model dog behavior, or humans, as tending to avoid fear, your wrong to say such a model isn't accurate.

I just don't think that saying all dogs experience fear is good enough to say that we know everything about dogs and it gets a lot more complicated with humans.
I took the entire OP as an idea that we can somehow (as he said) summarize all human behavior.
I don't think we can do that right now. Its really not that simple.

Quote:

To be honest, I think all human behavior can be summarized as the seeking of pleasant stimuli.

I don't agree with that.

Quote:

You contradict yourself in the span of two posts.

Not really.

Quote:

I suspect a lot of this crap is related to the desire to be seen as an intelligent actor. Its the same way people feel creeped out by notions of illusory free will. Its unpleasant to think yourself not powerful in certain ways- the alcoholic keeps telling himself he could easily quit, but just doesn't want to... obviously he's wrong.

--------------------

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Icelander
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: jivJaN]
#16686159 - 08/12/12 08:19 AM (9 months, 5 days ago)

I just don't think that saying all dogs experience fear is good enough to say that we know everything about dogs and it gets a lot more complicated with humans.

Got to start somewhere. Personally from my experience and study I think Becker has put his finger on a, if not the, prime mover of human behavior.

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redgreenvines
irregular verb

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,962

Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: Icelander]
#16686370 - 08/12/12 09:48 AM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Becker's experiments lack resolution and rigor. His samples are very small, and his premises are vague at the outset.
What he established by testing the rulings of less than 20 judges does not support his basic assumption, it has no statistical relevance and is only peripherally associated to the core issue being his premise that "society's purpose is to ensure that people will have order, and as long as they have order they will not be afraid"

He spends an adult lifetime trying to prove this assumption of the purpose of rules and society.

He is not more wrong than millions of clergy who spend a lifetime studying scriptural passages and interpretations.

IMO as a scientist, he fails all of us, his tests are not based upon a firm incremental understanding of other proven hypotheses, they are based upon conjectural traps of logic.

I would replace his fundamental rule with the rule of the bully, the protection rackets, and the actions of greed and domination. Society has grown and expanded by art and engineering, because these aspirations enrich the bullies more at each stage.

It is brutal and annoyingly true: you can convince the bully of an artifact's value in comparison only to the value of his opponent's artifact. With this approach some influence may be had over those in charge.

That they are in charge has little to do with our mortality, and much to do with the resilience of their lineage of domination, and the clear benefit of submission.

Often the most confused among us are judges.

--------------------
~~~~~

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Icelander
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Re: Models of Behavior

[Re: redgreenvines]
#16686377 - 08/12/12 09:52 AM (9 months, 5 days ago)

And this also of course includes all the the TMT people and the studies they have conducted and are currently engaged in? It's far from just Becker. He just started the ball rolling in a major way. The same was said of Freud as if the fact that he wasn't 100% correct about everything he thought discounts him and his amazing contributions to the study of the mind.

He spends an adult lifetime trying to prove this assumption of the purpose of rules and society.
So? What have you been up to for your adult lifetime?

He is not more wrong than millions of clergy who spend a lifetime studying scriptural passages and interpretations.
Hardly, where are the scientific studies done on the basis for religious belief. You've gone a little off the deep end here.

IMO as a scientist, he fails all of us, his tests are not based upon a firm incremental understanding of other proven hypotheses, they are based upon conjectural traps of logic.

Much of his hypotheses have been supported by the folk doing TMT research.

And just so we are clear here. How much of his work have you read in total?

And

Everyone acts the bully imo. People, who are weak or lazy tend to put those in charge into a category as if they were another species different from them in some fundamental way. Hardly true. All our leaders have strong support from all the bullies that vote.

Edited by Icelander (08/12/12 10:10 AM)

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