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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 30,154
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #16664783 - 08/08/12 08:52 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

In a world without police, the strong would dominate the weak.

I suspect you'd be someones slave soon enough.


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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19975036#19975036

And now an admin, who should put the site ahead of himself, has added me to his ignore list. Can't win an argument? Pretend the other guy doesn't exist. :rofl2:

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Registered: 10/04/05
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Memories] * 1
    #16665224 - 08/08/12 11:42 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Military and related expeditures "easily sustainable" with low taxes? You must not have a clue regarding the federal budget. We don't have low taxes currently & still don't come even close to funding this $1 trillion per year behemoth (40-50% of income taxes to this end), far & away the leading cause of the national debt.


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"I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream.

And I, to whom so great a vision was given in my youth; you see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead."

- Oglala Lakota medicine man Black Elk, reflecting on the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre


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InvisibleEnlil
The Johnny Appleseed of Hopeā„¢
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Learyfan]
    #16665488 - 08/08/12 12:38 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You're basing this idea on some false premises...

The police aren't there to protect people...They are there so that the government can wield it's "police power."  Without them, the power wood be impotent...


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InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 26,249
Loc: Street of Dreams
Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Learyfan]
    #16665853 - 08/08/12 03:28 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
I think you'll find (stupid question not withstanding) that many, if not most, conservatives find police to be a valid use of their tax dollars.




Why?  It's a socialist policy.  You pay your hard earned tax money to protect some free loader.  Why shouldn't we have to pay for police insurance?





What a ridiculous straw man you are attempting to, and failing at, creating.  You paint conservatives with a broad brush, find an inevitable absurdum and then act confused when your finding is rejected.  You are literally trying to make your opponents argument for them with the barrage of rhetorical questions.

Guess what - conservatives aren't against all socialist policies.  Only a fool would think so.  Its as ridiculous as claiming liberals, or even socialists, want 100% tax.


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InvisibleDieCommie
El Guapo

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 26,249
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: EntheogenicPeace] * 1
    #16665901 - 08/08/12 03:40 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Military and related expeditures "easily sustainable" with low taxes? You must not have a clue regarding the federal budget. We don't have low taxes currently & still don't come even close to funding this $1 trillion per year behemoth (40-50% of income taxes to this end), far & away the leading cause of the national debt.




Local taxes pay for police.  Military and police occupy a low portion of total expense.  Much of local taxes goes to fire, roads, schools, etc.  And in many places local taxes are as much, if not more, than federal taxes.  Mine are.


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Invisiblejohnm214M
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: DieCommie]
    #16666270 - 08/08/12 04:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

But ignoring your absurd premises, yes, you should have to pay your hard earned money to save some 8 year old girl from being raped.  At the most basic role of government is the enforcement of an individual's rights- if you don't believe in this your essentially an anarchist.  Thinking government shouldn't pursue extraneous social engineering products is not obviously reducible to thinking government should do anything.




How do you feel about socialized medicine? Is health not a basic individual right? It is in my mind. If you are sick, whether or not you survive shouldn't depend on the amount of money that you have. Just as whether or not you get protection from crime shouldn't depend on the amount of money you have.





I allready answered that: "Because you have a right to your body and property but you don't have a right to have men with guns force other people to give you products and services? "

So no, you don't have a right to make people give you goods and services for your health.

I agree your survival shouldn't depend on how much money you have, so what?  (and of course, you're conflating treatment with financial responsibility, in the US emergency facilities must save your life or stabalize it and give you a physician to evaluate you- the debate is over who should pay).  I also think people shouldn't die and should all have a team of sled dogs- why don't we make you responsible for that?

Quote:

DieCommie said:

Local taxes pay for police.  Military and police occupy a low portion of total expense.  Much of local taxes goes to fire, roads, schools, etc.  And in many places local taxes are as much, if not more, than federal taxes.  Mine are.





Don't forget all that great federal grant money for the local expenses :thumbup:

What would the poor local governments do if they didn't have the feds to tax their citezins, take their money, lower the taxable income of the residents, and then dole back whatever it wants with whatever preconditions it wants?  Around here we have road blocks all the time where cops arrest people for pot and driving on suspended licenses- that money is all earmarked federal grants that pay overtime to the local cops.  And then the media has the nerve to treat it as a gift rather than a block of money that was taken and then returned with the condition that ridiculous things be payed for with it (like shutting down roads at rush hour and finding 0 drunk drivers and hundreds of people without a license).


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OfflineMemoriesM
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Registered: 05/09/12
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: johnm214]
    #16666290 - 08/08/12 04:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Road blocks, huh? That sounds awful. I have never seen one around my area. Do you live in a populous area?


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Treading water in this sea of life until my final breath.


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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd

Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,078
Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Enlil]
    #16667169 - 08/08/12 07:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You're basing this idea on some false premises...

The police aren't there to protect people...They are there so that the government can wield it's "police power."  Without them, the power wood be impotent...




That's the truth "to server and protect" is a steaming load of BS; that is, unless they mean "to server and protect the powers that be and the status quo". The police are under no obligation to actually protect you from crime.

That is why I carry a gun :shrug:.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #16668088 - 08/08/12 11:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I allready answered that: "Because you have a right to your body and property but you don't have a right to have men with guns force other people to give you products and services? "

So no, you don't have a right to make people give you goods and services for your health.

I agree your survival shouldn't depend on how much money you have, so what?  (and of course, you're conflating treatment with financial responsibility, in the US emergency facilities must save your life or stabalize it and give you a physician to evaluate you- the debate is over who should pay).  I also think people shouldn't die and should all have a team of sled dogs- why don't we make you responsible for that?




I understand, you don't want to pay for my healthcare, but what if I don't want to pay for your schools, police, and firefighters? Shouldn't I be allowed that? We can just set up insurance policies for police and firefighters and force everyone to go to private schools if they want an education.

What you said about emergency services is true, but hardly a consolation. If I get cancer, they will do nothing until the moment when I can barely breathe, at which point it will already be too late for me. Preventative treatment is the key to actually saving people's lives, not delaying their death by a little bit.

In what way are sled dogs relevant? Sled dogs are not directly necessary for survival for most humans, health care is. Tens of thousands of people die unnecessarily every year in this country because of the inefficiency of our health care system. I would like to see that number drastically reduced.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflinePhredM
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: BoldAsLove] * 1
    #16668426 - 08/09/12 12:23 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sled dogs are not directly necessary for survival for most humans, health care is.



Food is even more necessary. Do you believe government should provide food to everyone? What about clothes? Housing?

If not, why not?


Phred


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Phred] * 1
    #16671397 - 08/09/12 04:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Sled dogs are not directly necessary for survival for most humans, health care is.



Food is even more necessary. Do you believe government should provide food to everyone? What about clothes? Housing?

If not, why not?


Phred




If you can afford to buy it on your own, then no the government should not be responsible for that. However, the government already does provide that to people who need it. Food stamps, welfare, and public housing covers all of that. And yes, I think those are important for the government to keep, but they could use a bit of adjusting because there are a lot of free loaders right now.

Let me pose a question to you: how do you differentiate between vital services that the government should be responsible for, and vital services that the government should not be responsible for? For example, healthcare v. firefighters.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineMycjunky
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #16671565 - 08/09/12 04:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I think your assuming that people who prefer a free market don't want people to have health care and all those other things. That's not the case we just disagree on how you actually get to a society like that. Yea it'd be real nice if the government could just wave there magic wand and give all the people who are going without exactly what they need but history and the facts say it just doesn't work that way. Conservatives are against universal healthcare because the fact is it's just inefficient and does not provide better care then the free market, and does not provide care to more people then a free market solution. The current system with the government running police and firefighters has a track record of working.


I'm intrigued by the idea of privatizing police and firefighters but there's no point in having this conversation because there are many other problems that need to be tackled first that are damaging our economy more obviously. We don't need to go changing something that moderately works when everything else is broken. It's hard for me to wrap my head around a privatized police force type system there would obviously be a lot of details to work out, but it's an interesting concept to discuss.

Also again with privatized police though no one is saying that people would just go without. For example instead of the current police having a monopoly on the protection industry a free market solution would be allowing local communities for example to hire private policing companies. This way the policing companies would have to compete which drives down costs and increases quality. I do believe it's the governments role to protect peoples rights so we would of course need a police force but I don't see why it's so crazy to think of the possibility of a better system of doing it. Arguing that healthcare is a right and must be provided by the government makes no sense. It's the governments role to protect people from having there rights violated by other people or by the government, it's not the governments role however to provide services beyond that. No one is violating another persons rights simply by not being willing or able to get them a low enough price on healthcare that they can afford it.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Mycjunky] * 1
    #16672833 - 08/09/12 08:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

And I would argue that a privatized system does horribly at providing everyone with access to good health care. You say that public health care is inefficient, what about America's system? It spends the most per capita, by far, of any developed nation, and performs poorly on indicators of health care. The WHO put us at 72nd in overall health, and the UN put us at 38th in life expectancy. There was also a study done that found that if the US had a system as efficient as France's, there would be about 101,000 less deaths per year.

The problem with the free market system is that if you can't afford it, you don't get it. Often times in these debates poor is automatically grouped with lazy, that is simply not true. I don't see how a free market system brings health care to more people, as you claim it does. Also note, the most important aspect of care is preventative. Preventative care saves lives, but is given a low priority for most people in this country because of the cost. Even people who have insurance have trouble paying co-pays for preventative care, so they skip it and wait till they get really sick.

The way I want to see health care run in this country is similar to how Italy runs their health care system. There would be both public and private hospitals. If you can afford the private ones, then go there and get shorter wait times and more specialized care. If you can't, at least you get something in the public hospitals.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Edited by BoldAsLove (08/09/12 09:04 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #16672908 - 08/09/12 09:05 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
And I would argue that a privatized system does horribly at providing everyone with access to good health care.



Why is that a feature any more than providing everone access to food, shelter, clothing, internet, etc?  Why shouldn't people be responsible for themselves?
Quote:

 
You say that public health care is inefficient, what about America's system? It spends the most per capita, by far, of any developed nation, and performs poorly on indicators of health care. The WHO put us at 72nd in overall health, and 50th in life expectancy. There was also a study done that found that if the US had a system as efficient as France's, there would be about 101,000 less deaths per year.




Fact not in evidence.  I've had two potentially fatal cancers.  According to the stats I would be just over 50% likely dead in England and over 95% likely alive in America.  Call me selfish
Quote:



The problem with the free market system is that if you can't afford it, you don't get it.




That isn't a problem, it's a feature.
Quote:

Often times in these debates poor is automatically grouped with lazy, that is simply not true.




No.  It also strongly correlates with stupid.  Like having 4 babies by 4 daddies stupid.
Quote:

I don't see how a free market system brings health care to more people, as you claim it does. Also note, the most important aspect of care is preventative. Preventative care saves lives, but is given a low priority for most people in this country because of the cost. Even people who have insurance have trouble paying co-pays for preventative care, so they skip it and wait till they get really sick.




The problem with the glories of preventative care is that fucking idiots don't avail themselves of it and still go to the energency room.  Becaudse they're fucking stupid.  By the way, I didn't see a doctor more than twice from the time I was 20 until I was 45.  No reason to.
Quote:



The way I want to see health care run in this country is similar to how Italy runs their health care system. There would be both public and private hospitals. If you can afford the private ones, then go there and get shorter wait times and more specialized care. If you can't, at least you get something in the public hospitals.




That was what used to exist.


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OfflineMycjunky
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #16673172 - 08/09/12 09:56 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Americas system is in absolutely no way a privatized health care system. You can't say a free market system is inefficient and use the U.S. as an example when it's not a free market system at all. The U.S. government spends the third highest amount of money per capita on health care. If it was a free market the government would not be spending any money on health care. I know that's unrealistic but regardless the U.S. has very much a government run health care system regardless of what liberals keep convincing themselves, lets at least get the facts straight.

One of the most important things is allowing people to choose there own insurance providers and doctors which as with all competition decreases costs and increases quality. Until we return more freedom of choice and motivation to shop around and drive down health care costs things will not improve and you don't do that by involving government more.

Source- http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-myth-of-the-free-market-american-health-care-system/254210/


Edited by Mycjunky (08/09/12 10:03 PM)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #16673728 - 08/09/12 11:23 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Why is that a feature any more than providing everone access to food, shelter, clothing, internet, etc?  Why shouldn't people be responsible for themselves?




Internet isn't a necessity, and I covered the rest above. Perhaps you would care to answer the question I posed to Phred: how do you differentiate between vital services that the government should be responsible for, and vital services that the government should not be responsible for? For example, healthcare v. firefighters.

Quote:

Fact not in evidence.  I've had two potentially fatal cancers.  According to the stats I would be just over 50% likely dead in England and over 95% likely alive in America.  Call me selfish




Fact very much in evidence. Did you not see the stats I posted? The point I'm trying to make is that health care shouldn't be only for the people who can afford it. Health care is a basic human necessity that everyone should have access to, let alone people living in a post-modern society.

Quote:

That isn't a problem, it's a feature.




I think it is a problem.

Quote:

No.  It also strongly correlates with stupid.  Like having 4 babies by 4 daddies stupid.




See, this is exactly what I was talking about. You can stereotype all you want, but you're wrong. I'm poor and I can't afford health insurance. I go to school full time to get a degree in engineering and physics and work 3 jobs. But yes, the answer is that I must be lazy and stupid.

Quote:

The problem with the glories of preventative care is that fucking idiots don't avail themselves of it and still go to the energency room.  Becaudse they're fucking stupid.  By the way, I didn't see a doctor more than twice from the time I was 20 until I was 45.  No reason to.




You can't take advantage of preventative care if you can't afford it. And you were lucky, I'm happy for you. Other people aren't so lucky. People die from preventable causes all the time, and at very young ages.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16673753 - 08/09/12 11:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
In a world without police, the strong would dominate the weak.

I suspect you'd be someones slave soon enough.




did you suspect I was being sarcastic? Maybe you'd be my slave :feelsbadman:


--------------------


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: Mycjunky] * 1
    #16673756 - 08/09/12 11:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Privatized does not equal free market, and government expenditures does not equal government run, so your argument falls apart right there. I am a strong supporter of the free market, but the current system is anything but, I agree. I also don't think that the free market is a good option for health care, it focuses too much on money and not enough on care. People shouldn't be viewed as money pinatas, but as people.

As for the government run part of it, that would mean government owned hospitals supported by tax dollars providing care to all citizens. We do not have that in this country. The money spent by our government, however, is a good example of how inefficient this system is and how much cleaning up it could use. I'm very frustrated that so much of my tax money is being spent, and so very little is coming out. That isn't limited solely to health care, though.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #16673757 - 08/09/12 11:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
And I would argue that a privatized system does horribly at providing everyone with access to good health care.



Why is that a feature any more than providing everone access to food, shelter, clothing, internet, etc?  Why shouldn't people be responsible for themselves?
Quote:

 
You say that public health care is inefficient, what about America's system? It spends the most per capita, by far, of any developed nation, and performs poorly on indicators of health care. The WHO put us at 72nd in overall health, and 50th in life expectancy. There was also a study done that found that if the US had a system as efficient as France's, there would be about 101,000 less deaths per year.




Fact not in evidence.  I've had two potentially fatal cancers.  According to the stats I would be just over 50% likely dead in England and over 95% likely alive in America.  Call me selfish
Quote:



The problem with the free market system is that if you can't afford it, you don't get it.




That isn't a problem, it's a feature.
Quote:

Often times in these debates poor is automatically grouped with lazy, that is simply not true.




No.  It also strongly correlates with stupid.  Like having 4 babies by 4 daddies stupid.
Quote:

I don't see how a free market system brings health care to more people, as you claim it does. Also note, the most important aspect of care is preventative. Preventative care saves lives, but is given a low priority for most people in this country because of the cost. Even people who have insurance have trouble paying co-pays for preventative care, so they skip it and wait till they get really sick.




The problem with the glories of preventative care is that fucking idiots don't avail themselves of it and still go to the energency room.  Becaudse they're fucking stupid.  By the way, I didn't see a doctor more than twice from the time I was 20 until I was 45.  No reason to.
Quote:



The way I want to see health care run in this country is similar to how Italy runs their health care system. There would be both public and private hospitals. If you can afford the private ones, then go there and get shorter wait times and more specialized care. If you can't, at least you get something in the public hospitals.




That was what used to exist.




honestly, you scare the shit out of me :shrug:


--------------------


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Should we privatize the police? [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #16673786 - 08/09/12 11:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

you aren't really required to pay for fire fighter insurance now do you? It exists as a benefit of your state taxes. Maybe health care should exist down on the state level, if certain states want government health care, state taxes can pay for it instead of stupid government mandate federal insurance policies.

How about things that have nothing to do with government service all together? At least Obama Crap I meant to say Obama Care IS a service for people. How about bailing out companies that don't provide a service in each state. The auto industry? :rolleyes: cmon man

People can take the bus. I don't believe federal government should pay for anything besides bare minimum, things like the F.B.I. and the C.I.A., they are necessary, and are honestly WAY too expensive, but are necessary. Everything else the state can do. Btw I've heard despite this stupid Obama Care crap, that like 15% of Americans still won't get treated. Shit, they could have done that without Obama Care.


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* America = Police State BowlKiller 619 15 02/14/03 03:31 PM
by RandalFlagg
* Why should the government protect us from armies and criminals but not bacteria and viruses?
( 1 2 3 all )
Freedom 1,521 48 03/20/11 10:08 PM
by Freedom
* Patriot Act 2, more plans for a police state Ellis Dee 738 16 02/26/03 07:19 PM
by ClosetCase

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