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 OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,364
Loc: Candyland
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 Placebo 
#16659355 - 08/07/12 10:47 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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As a geezer I have many aches and pains - and no, I am not here to whine about them. The point is: they come and go like the tides.
If I took a placebo, would the underlying condition get better? No, but I might be convinced that when I am in a low pain tide that the placebo is working even though there was no correlation as the pain subsides anyway.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,909
Loc: underbelly
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And this is your complete understanding of the placebo effect?
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,364
Loc: Candyland
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The word complete never appeared. This was not a treatise nor thesis nor a white paper being submitted to peer review.
Confirmation bias is certainly a portion of the placebo effect, do you deny that?
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Synchro
Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 254
Loc: Brooklyn, NY 
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I believe part of the reason why a placebo works is the belief beforehand that it will cause an effect. I don't see how you can accomplish this if you already know it's a placebo. Maybe try some sort of herbal remedy that others already believe in its effectiveness.
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Anaïs Nin - "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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 HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,019
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 12 hours, 7 minutes
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I believe several studies now have shown that even when the patients were told the pill they were receiving was a placebo, they still responded to the effect. Even more, the placebo response appears to be getting stronger in many drug trials.
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Understanding is near, don't do anything stupid!
All be well!!!
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Absolute
Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
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Drug companies are developing better placebos all the time.
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Synchro
Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 254
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
I believe several studies now have shown that even when the patients were told the pill they were receiving was a placebo, they still responded to the effect. Even more, the placebo response appears to be getting stronger in many drug trials.
Are you sure they weren't told afterwards they were in fact taking a placebo?
Hmm...interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/dec/22/placebo-effect-patients-sham-drug
Quote:
Patients can benefit from being treated with sham drugs even if they are told they contain no active ingredient, scientists have found. The finding suggests that the placebo effect could work without the need for any deception on the part of the doctor, as had been previously thought.
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Anaïs Nin - "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,019
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 12 hours, 7 minutes
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You could say the same thing about an actual pain killer.
Many, if not most drugs are not meant to cure, they're meant to treat. They have no effect on the underlying condition, the drugs are meant to make the conditional symptoms more manageable.
So in the case you have laid out, it really doesn't matter whether it was real or fake. Except that the real might bring on additional side effects to worry about.
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Understanding is near, don't do anything stupid!
All be well!!!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,909
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
The word complete never appeared. This was not a treatise nor thesis nor a white paper being submitted to peer review.
Confirmation bias is certainly a portion of the placebo effect, do you deny that?
I don't deny anything. Just think it's kind of incomplete.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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It's also a common feature of human behavior that when one is taking/using a non-functioning therapy, they also tend to take better care of themselves as a consequence, thus reinforcing the false belief that placebos give lasting benefit.
For example, Joe Fatguy starts wearing the new magnetic Jesus bracelet with "healing copper" because he read on the intertubes that it helps you lose weight. Well, with that heavy shit hanging on his arm, every time he goes to stuff food in his face, he gets a little reminder and as a result he loses weight. He could have worn a fishing weight and gotten the same effect for a hell of a lot less money. And he would have looked less stoopid too.
I love that pic.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I believe several studies now have shown that even when the patients were told the pill they were receiving was a placebo, they still responded to the effect.
I'm not sure that's true. I've posted this here before, but it bears repeating:
Fabrizio Benedetti of the University of Turin in Italy recently performed an interesting experiment.
For several days, he physically induced pain in volunteers and controlled it with morphine, which the volunteers knew about. Toward the end of the experiment, he substituted saline for the morphine without telling the subjects. Not surprisingly, the saline worked almost as well as the morphine. This is the Placebo Effect.
Now the weird part:
Benedetti next added naloxone to the saline but still didn't tell the subjects. Naloxone is a drug that blocks the effects of morphine. Guess what happened then? The pain CAME BACK! This happened, even though there was no morphine in the saline for the naloxone to block!
The morphine blocker blocked the (non-existing morphine) placebo effect!
It is not understood how this can be, but it is becoming apparent that the placebo effect is somehow at least partially biochemical and not entirely psychological.
The Placebo Effect used to be considered a purely psychological phenomenon because if the patient is told that he's getting a placebo and not the actual morphine, suddenly the placebo effect stops. Knowledge that they're getting placebo cancels the placebo effect. That reads like a psychological phenomenon.
But now we find that the placebo effect can be eliminated when an antidote to the drug the patient THINKS he's getting is given instead, even though he still thinks he's getting the drug.
Somehow, the patient is chemically manifesting the effects of morphine without morphine, not just psychologically manifesting those effects. The brain does produce trace amounts of morphine, but not near enough to account for the analgesia exhibited in the experiment.
This is an interesting result. What it might mean is even more interesting.
If the placebo effect is not entirely psychological (which it can't be or the covert naloxone would not stop the placebo morphine), then where does the placebo analgesia come from?
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope
Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 4,413
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Wait a minute, so what happens if the patient is given the real drug but told it's just a placebo. Does that make the drug more or less effective?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,592
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
I believe several studies now have shown that even when the patients were told the pill they were receiving was a placebo, they still responded to the effect. Even more, the placebo response appears to be getting stronger in many drug trials.
Source?
Much of the concensus on this topic seems to conflate the measurement errors that controlled experiments tend to correct with the administration of the substance. There are very few experiments even capable of detecting this yet people make the fallacious conclusions all the time, and sloppy reporting exacerbates the issue.
';lkjhgfQuote:
Synchro said:
Quote:
HagbardCeline said:
I believe several studies now have shown that even when the patients were told the pill they were receiving was a placebo, they still responded to the effect. Even more, the placebo response appears to be getting stronger in many drug trials.
Are you sure they weren't told afterwards they were in fact taking a placebo?
Hmm...interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/dec/22/placebo-effect-patients-sham-drug
Quote:
Patients can benefit from being treated with sham drugs even if they are told they contain no active ingredient, scientists have found. The finding suggests that the placebo effect could work without the need for any deception on the part of the doctor, as had been previously thought.
That doesn't suggest the patient knows its a placebo- the doctor lied to them and told them it had no chemical function yet would still work to improve their symptoms. The patients still had an expectation of treatment.
Further, this is an example of the experimental design limitations I discussed previously- there was no control for the diagnosis, evaluation, treatment, and interaction with medical staff. Its known that when a witch doctor performs a scenario or a doctor asks you questions people feel better- this says nothing about whether the chemical caused the improvement, the interaction, or even measurement error due to no control for the interaction with the medical establishment.
Quote:
Diploid said:
But now we find that the placebo effect can be eliminated when an antidote to the drug the patient THINKS he's getting is given instead, even though he still thinks he's getting the drug.
Somehow, the patient is chemically manifesting the effects of morphine without morphine, not just psychologically manifesting those effects. The brain does produce trace amounts of morphine, but not near enough to account for the analgesia exhibited in the experiment.
This is not necessarily true- much of the so-called opioid antagonists are actually reverse agonists. They don't simply block the binding sites (which itself would cause issues as it probably blocks endorophin activity) but they actually stimulate the receptor in the opposite direction- a sort of reverse action rather than the null action a true antagonist causes.
As a result, its quite possible their pain threshold was lowered and psychotropic effects were felt regardless of the stimulus.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,909
Loc: underbelly
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It is not understood how this can be, but it is becoming apparent that the placebo effect is somehow at least partially biochemical and not entirely psychological.
And why I don't take the effect lightly. It bears in-depth study as much as any major medical procedure or drug. Problem??? Where's the $$$$$ for the fat cats running at least parts of the medical profession who don't give a rats ass if you are well or die or in pain or not as long as you pay.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 9,019
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 12 hours, 7 minutes
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I remember that experiment as well, perhaps it was from when you posted it before.
But here is one of the studies about it still working when the subjects were instructed upfront they were receiving inert substances.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0015591
Lead author's interview (transcript) on NPR about placebos.
http://www.npr.org/2012/01/06/144794035/one-scholars-take-on-the-power-of-the-placebo
Several interesting things in the interview. About how even when the sham treatment produces no objective improvement, the subjective experiences were still rated very effective.
I just find placebo fascinating and happy to see that instead of just trying to figure out ways to eliminate the effect, experiments are now being designed to more fully understand and exploit it.
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Understanding is near, don't do anything stupid!
All be well!!!
Edited by HagbardCeline (08/07/12 09:06 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I don't think the mu-opioid receptor has basal activity. But I may be wrong. Biochemistry isn't my area.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Synchro
Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 254
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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 Re: Placebo [Re: Kizzle]
#16660463 - 08/07/12 03:11 PM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Wait a minute, so what happens if the patient is given the real drug but told it's just a placebo. Does that make the drug more or less effective?
It's my understanding that the patients expectations can affect 'real' drugs just as it would a placebo. (My understanding on this subject is still evolving, so take it for what it's worth.)
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Anaïs Nin - "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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Synchro
Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 254
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Moreover, a lot of so-called 'real' drugs (e.g. SSRIs) positive effects are thought to be mostly placebo.
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Anaïs Nin - "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Where do you get your misinformation? It's a first-rate source.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Synchro
Registered: 02/26/12
Posts: 254
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Where do you get your misinformation? It's a first-rate source.
There are literally thousands of articles on this subject. I have an opinion that the side effects felt from antidepressants cause the user to have a placebo effect, causing the depression to subside.
Considering that the mechanism of how drugs like SSRIs even work is still unknown (or if they even work), I think it's a fairly rational opinion, one which many even in the pharma/medical-industrial complex share.
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Anaïs Nin - "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
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