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 Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,346
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck 
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 Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum?  [Re: Ythan]
#16645302 - 08/05/12 03:17 AM (9 months, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ythan said:
I'm a proud atheist and I always like to see my interests represented, but I kind of agree with WScott, what would we talk about? Based on my time in /r/atheism I'm worried it would just turn into a big circle-jerk about how much smarter and better we are than people who believe in religion.
and wouldnt that make you question just who really is smarter 
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there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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 vladtepes
Radical
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 204
Loc: new england
Last seen: 7 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#16645380 - 08/05/12 03:44 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I dunno... To me any unproven improvable idea on the ultimate reality becomes a form of mysticism or gnosis. Or it could be philosophy or science. But sometimes atheism seems even more hardcore than science because science only makes small extrapolations as a hypothesis then adds the data to belief after much math, experimentation, and peer review to prove it true. Where as it is a lot like mysticism in that it makes more distant extrapolations on the final solution to the origins of the universe and then works it into their beliefs and accepts it as fact. Or philosophy if you don't want it to be grouped up with people who believe in extra dimensional beings and places that much. :-\ just seems like its to much of a sub category to make it a main category in a forum filled with people who think the psychedelic experience is proof of extra dimensional beings.
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“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.”
― Terence McKenna
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cc2
Mush
Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 2,089
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Ythan]  1
#16646017 - 08/05/12 09:45 AM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ythan said:
I'm worried it would just turn into a big circle-jerk about how much smarter and better we are than people who believe in religion.
you literally took the words out of my mouth 
I support the idea for an atheist forum (or subforum) but I also glimpse its evolution towards a science discussion branch, that one regarding inconsistencies in religious text.
after we've dug up from wikipedia (or other sources) most of the criticism of the bible and science and the bible articles, what's left, other than showing the flaws behind every other religion?
from my point of view (and surely I'm not alone) atheism is the acknowledgement of pure sciences as the only way to strongly understand and measure everything, without strings attached or nonsense middleman fables.
I'd see such a subforum development as nothing else than collecting religious flaws which will then flow into scientific propaganda affordable for the layman.
while this would indeed be an ambitious and right project, given the amount of people today shoving nonsense that old and silly that it still stands just because everybody fears to discover that you're a biologic being with a limited amount of time and no beribboned postmortem, we should also place some questions.
what'd be the outcome of a widespread atheism success?
which percentage of people are able to ethically live once they discover that you only have your own age to do everything and there's no after-?
sure, everything above assumes a dramatic number of conversions to scientific atheism (and is cynical from a certain POV), something which governing powers and religions have everything possible against, but given shroomery worldwide influence on certain topics, who knows what limit will it set?
of course there will always be that amount of people that no matter how you face solid scientific proof to every nonsense they trust on, will say that they've understood (and then bless god that they didn't fall into a devil's trap), will thank their creator for a harvest they grew with manpower and hauled water, will blame few prayers instead of conspiracies if things go wrong, or will kiss a symbol after they've won super bowl.
I understand the human need for tales and symbolism as pastime and amusement or just things of beauty (and can't neglect the charm religions gained...just because they've been around for a long time), also because everything looks beribboned in there as opposed to a straight differential equation which won't draw as many followers or interested people.
my only concern is a fall into individualism and cynism due to widespread scientific "enlightenment" (something which sounds cynic itself) though we'd argue that everybody who is enough open minded and wants to make their extra step out of thousand years-old tradition/submission is already able to do so without our help or pinpointing.
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Memories
Manic Hedonist
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 5,144
Loc: behind you
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Newbie]
#16646908 - 08/05/12 01:53 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Newbie said:
Our thoughts and feelings on religious fallacies, personal stories about our belief system (or lack of) and how it's affected our lives... We'd share pics and post debates, that sort of thing.
This seems like the stuff people post in PS&P.
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"I noticed that the feeling from mxe is better when you refrain from masturbating a day or two before, a few times when I masturbated before usage I got this WEIRD look in my eyes and it caused me to not be able to have eye contact with people, my eyes were more squinted and my face looked more puffy, but without masterbating that day or the day before I felt great, it actually felt somewhat like a different drug.
Anyone notice this?"
- Chowder963
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Cutless
Admimistrator
Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 2,834
Loc: 127.0.0.1
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Newbie]
#16646930 - 08/05/12 01:58 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Newbie said:
Or we could just have one called "Theist/Atheism" where both sides duke it out in the same forum. Wouldn't THAT be fun? 
Not really. Sorry to say, but the more I think about this, the less I like it.
Quote:
Cutless said:
it seems like it'd turn into a circle jerk and become troll-ridden
Quote:
Ythan said:
I'm worried it would just turn into a big circle-jerk
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vladtepes
Radical
Registered: 06/15/08
Posts: 204
Loc: new england
Last seen: 7 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Cutless]
#16648253 - 08/05/12 06:13 PM (9 months, 10 days ago) |
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I think a beliefs debate forum would be better. To me it is more fun to put my ideas to the test against someone else's ideas. Preaching to the choir is boring as shit. It's nice to see people agree with you, but getting into the nitty gritty of the topic is only useful to building confidence in the idea. Learning the things that make people hold high an idea is a waste if not put to test against opposing ideas. A debate forum with guidelines that must be followed, no sarcasm, being rude, if someone is presenting fallacious reasoning you have to KINDLY point out how the reasoning is fallacious. A gentlemanly debate.
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“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.”
― Terence McKenna
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igCorcaigh
Registered: 06/17/12
Posts: 1,482
Loc: Ireland 
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: vladtepes]
#16657551 - 08/07/12 12:36 AM (9 months, 9 days ago) |
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We could also discuss issues relating to secularisation of society or lack thereof?
Personally, I dislike religion bashing, each to their own etc.
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"I believe that great weirdness stalks the universe. That's not the issue with me, but it is not tacky. It is not tacky." - The Bard TMcK
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Stopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,082
Loc: Melbourne 
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: igCorcaigh]
#16659046 - 08/07/12 09:16 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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It would make a good home for threads like these:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14748343#14748343
I see a number of benifets to an atheist forum/subforum, discussion of books, prominent atheists both past and present, conversation about the detrimental effects of organised religion in a supposedly secular society, so on and so forth.
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TimmiT
Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 3,284
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Newbie]
#16659077 - 08/07/12 09:26 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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I like the idea of an Atheist forum or subforum 
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"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: TimmiT]
#16659085 - 08/07/12 09:29 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Atheism is a religion, it posits a belief in the unknowable. (Opposed to agnosticism.)
Why not have a Catholicism forum? I bet we have a lot of Catholics who would like to talk about Catholicism.
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Stopwhispering
The voodoo peoples
Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 4,082
Loc: Melbourne
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Doc_T] 1
#16659094 - 08/07/12 09:32 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Atheism is a religion, it posits a belief in the unknowable. (Opposed to agnosticism.)
Do you really need this statement pulled apart you can google it if you like and save us both some time.
1/10
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Newbie
User of semicolons.
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Posts: 23,015
Loc: Suburbia
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Doc_T] 1
#16659108 - 08/07/12 09:35 AM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Atheism is a disbelief, or rejecting of a claim.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,573
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Doc_T] 2
#16660119 - 08/07/12 01:57 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Atheism is a religion, it posits a belief in the unknowable. (Opposed to agnosticism.)
Why not have a Catholicism forum? I bet we have a lot of Catholics who would like to talk about Catholicism.
This is simply false. As Newbie has stated, atheism is the lack of belief in a deity- I've never met someone who calls themselves an atheist and claims to believe there is no god.
Further, you muddle things up even more by contrasting atheism and agnosticism as though they were mutually exclusive. Gnosticism refers to knowledge, theism to belief. I would call myself an agnostic atheist if I wanted to be verbose, but there is certainly no contradiction between the two- they answer different questions.
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Cutless
Admimistrator
Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 2,834
Loc: 127.0.0.1
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Quote:
Stopwhispering said:
It would make a good home for threads like these:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14748343#14748343
I see a number of benifets to an atheist forum/subforum, discussion of books, prominent atheists both past and present, conversation about the detrimental effects of organised religion in a supposedly secular society, so on and so forth.
While this sounds good in theory and absolutely would work among a different crowd, keep in mind... you can't stop here, this is troll country.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 168,346
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Newbie] 1
#16660210 - 08/07/12 02:15 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Newbie said:
Atheism is a disbelief, or rejecting of a claim.
atheism is a belief that there is no god, it's a disbelief in the dogma of
religion, call it what ever you want, in actuality is is a religious belief
--------------------
there are 923 words in the english language that do not follow the "I before E"
rule, there are 44 words in the english language that follow the rule. this is
the shit our education funding is paying for and these liberals want more money
for education to keep making students stupid
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Newbie
User of semicolons.
Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 23,015
Loc: Suburbia
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#16660300 - 08/07/12 02:37 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Well if you're nitpicking semantics, yeah. If someone claimed that ghosts inhabited my house I'd reject that claim, and my claim could be classified as paranormal because it pertains to the nature of the original claim.
It all falls under the burden of proof. Someone making a positive claim must provide evidence to support that claim. It's not the job of the disbeliever to prove them wrong. Much like if you told me you had $5.6 billion on your lap. You're making a positive claim and I disbelieve that claim. It's your job to prove you have it, not my job to prove you don't.
Atheists might follow a similar pattern and group together to form a front, but that's not religion. It's an argument against religion.
And this is the exact type on conversation that would take place in a theism/atheist forum.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,573
Loc: Americas
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Prisoner#1] 1
#16660385 - 08/07/12 02:52 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Newbie said:
Atheism is a disbelief, or rejecting of a claim.
atheism is a belief that there is no god, it's a disbelief in the dogma of
religion, call it what ever you want, in actuality is is a religious belief
No, this is not correct. It is neither the way the term is used by its proponents nor the way it is defined by relevant authorities. This is generally a straw man levied by theists or those who seem to think that because the term agnosticism exists it must be exclusive of both theism and atheism- a reasonable desire but inaccurate.
‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God.
[...]
[agnosticism]Huxley thought that we would never be able to know about the ultimate origin and causes of the universe. Thus he seems to have been more like a Kantian believer in unknowable noumena than like a Vienna Circle proponent of the view that talk of God is not even meaningful.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
-wikipedia
n. lack of belief that God or gods exist, disbelief in the existence of God or gods; godlessness
http://www.babylon.com/define/74/Philosophy-Dictionary.html
More to the point, self described atheists almost never use the term to refer to a positive belief in the absence of deities. Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, and many more contemporary writers all acknowledge the possibility of god and describe themselves as atheists due to their lack of belief.
It is simply false to claim atheism is the belief in god's nonexistance- at the very least, there is a gigantic and persistant use of the word to refer to the negative belief, and almost nobody actually claims the positive.
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
call it what ever you want, in actuality is is a religious belief
This is absurd. By any reasonable definition religious belief requires a theology and some sort of deity (though some debate the last point, meerly requiring supernatural bullshit). Atheism can in no way meet this definition- it is a single position on a single position, has no dogma, no worldview, and no supernatural forces.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#16660392 - 08/07/12 02:54 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Newbie said:
Atheism is a disbelief, or rejecting of a claim.
atheism is a belief that there is no god, it's a disbelief in the dogma of
religion, call it what ever you want, in actuality is is a religious belief
Thats only a subset of what atheism describes. And its not a religious belief. It may be a belief to some, and it may even be unsubstantiated. But those two characteristics are not sufficient to being a religion.
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igCorcaigh
Registered: 06/17/12
Posts: 1,482
Loc: Ireland
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: DieCommie]
#16661816 - 08/07/12 07:04 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Yup, atheism is a broad church
Can be defined as weak to strong, and all shades in between.
Doesn't necessarily mean the rejection of the idea of God.
The fact that this thread has already got into issues like this just proves the point of the OP
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"I believe that great weirdness stalks the universe. That's not the issue with me, but it is not tacky. It is not tacky." - The Bard TMcK
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 79,858
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Can we please have an Atheist forum? [Re: Ythan]
#16663265 - 08/07/12 10:51 PM (9 months, 8 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ythan said:
I'm a proud atheist and I always like to see my interests represented, but I kind of agree with WScott, what would we talk about? Based on my time in /r/atheism I'm worried it would just turn into a big circle-jerk about how much smarter and better we are than people who believe in religion. Any substantive posts about atheism are already welcome in Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology, does it really need its own forum?
We could talk about how well I could run the world. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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