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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645703 - 08/05/12 06:38 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Honor killings by Muslims have happened and get media attention but, like most things that get media attention, they are aberrations. In fact, Islam forbids mothers from killing their kids.
Quote:
O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
"Honor killings" are not the product of one religion or another; if anything, honor killings appear to be associated with certain nation states, particularly Russia and the US--see here, http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_abo-health-abortions. Of the 19 countries listed in order of most to least number of honor killings, I noted not one predominantly Islamic country.
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The People's History
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: Not Quite Social]
#16645746 - 08/05/12 07:07 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Why is it biased towards women? Is that so the men can kill them?
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645756 - 08/05/12 07:12 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Some sample cases of horrific honor killing:
Case-1: " Two months ago, when she tried to run away yet again, Kina (father of the girl) grabbed a kitchen knife and an ax and stabbed and beat the girl [his daughter] until she lay dead in the blood-smeared bathroom of the family's Istanbul apartment. He then commanded one of his daughters-in-law to clean up the mess. When his two sons came home from work 14 hours later, he ordered them to dispose of the 5-foot-3 corpse, which had been wrapped in a carpet and a blanket. The girl's head had been so mutilated, police said, it was held together by a knotted cloth." Case-2: "Kifaya Husayn, a 16-year-old Jordanian girl, was lashed to a chair by her 32-year-old brother. He gave her a drink of water and told her to recite an Islamic prayer. Then he slashed her throat. Immediately afterward, he ran out into the street, waving the bloody knife and crying, 'I have killed my sister to cleanse my honor.' Kifaya's crime? She was raped by another brother, a 21-year-old man. Her judge and jury? Her own uncles, who convinced her eldest brother that Kifaya was too much of a disgrace to the family's honor to be allowed to live. The murderer was sentenced to fifteen years, but the sentence was subsequently reduced to seven and a half years, an extremely severe penalty by Jordanian standards." Case-3: “A 25-year-old Palestinian who hanged his sister with a rope: "I did not kill her, but rather helped her to commit suicide and to carry out the death penalty she sentenced herself to. I did it to wash with her blood the family honor that was violated because of her and in response to the will of society that would not have had any mercy on me if I didn't . . . Society taught us from childhood that blood is the only solution to wash the honor." Case-4: "Samia Sarwar, 29, mother of two boys aged 4 and 8, was shot dead today in lawyer Hina Jillani's office by a bearded man accompanying her mother and uncle. `He's my helper, I can't walk,' said the mother, when Hina told the two men to get out. As the mother went to sit down in front of Hina's desk, and Saima stood up from her chair, the bearded man whipped out a pistol from his waistcoat and shot Saima in the head, killing her instantly."
When Samia Sarwar sought a divorce from her violent husband she was gunned down in the office of her lawyer Hina Jilani. The killer was taken there by her own mother.
• Case-5: ABU QASH, Palestine: Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud (mother of 9 children) killed her daughter ‘Rofayda Qaoud’ who had been raped by her brothers and was impregnated. Armed with a plastic bag, razor and wooden stick, Qaoud entered her sleeping daughter's room last Jan. 27, 2003. "Tonight you die, Rofayda," she told the girl, before wrapping the bag tightly around her head. Next, Qaoud sliced Rofayda's wrists, ignoring her muffled pleas of "No, mother, no!" After her daughter went limp, Qaoud struck her in the head with the stick. The 43-year-old mother of nine said. "I had to protect my children. This is the only way I could protect my family's honor."
• Case-6: A 23 year old Rania Arafat, whose plight was broadcast live on national TV in Jordan. Rania was promised to her cousin as a very young child. Rania repeatedly told that she doesn't love him and she is in love with someone else. She pled with her family to allow her to marry her lover, instead. She ran away twice, including two weeks before her forced marriage. She wrote to her mother and pled for forgiveness and understanding. Her parents promised that she would not be harmed and she could return home. On August 19, 1997, Rania returned home. The same night, her younger brother, Rami, shot her five times in the head and chest, killing her immediately. Her youngest brother was chosen to commit the murder not only to allow his defense to find protection under the laws protecting so-called honour crimes, but also because he was a juvenile. Rami served six months in jail for his crime.
Case-7: Amal, another Arab woman and victim of honour killing was run away because she insisted on her independence. Her family said that they were ashamed because of that and the gossip of neighbors. One night, when she returned home and went sleep, her brother accompanied by Amal's father, strangled her. He said: "I strangled her. She didn't fight back. I recited the "Holly Koran" as she was dying… it took a few minutes and she was dead." He and his father both given light sentences.
Every two weeks a young woman is killed in Jordan alone in the name of family honour
• Case-8: Death of Aqsa Pervez: A reflection on Canadian Muslim-Pakistanis-Honor killing in Canada!, December 16, 2007 A young Mississauga teenager (16-year old) Aqsa Pervez, was killed by her father last week who later called the police and confessed. Mohammad Pervez is now in police custody and his case hearings have begun. The young girl was killed by strangulation for her refusal to wear the hijab.
Case- 9: Texas manhunt on for father of slain his two girls (January 3, 2008) Texas authorities continued a manhunt today for an Egyptian-born taxi driver accused of murdering his two teenage daughters. Yaser Abdel Said, 50, was wanted on a warrant for capital murder after police say he shot the girls Tuesday and left them to die in his taxi, which was found parked in front a hotel in Las Colinas, a suburb north of Dallas. Police said Mr. Said should be considered armed and dangerous.
Friends of Amina Yaser Said, 18, and Sarah Yaser Said, 17, described the girls to the Dallas Morning News as "extremely smart — like geniuses," saying the slain sisters had been enrolled in advanced placement classes and were active in soccer and tennis at suburban Lewisville High School. Family and friends told reporters that the girls' Westernized lifestyle caused conflict with their Muslim father, who immigrated from Egypt in the 1980s.
"He was really strict about guy relationships and talking to guys, as well as the things she wears," Kathleen Wong, a friend of the girls, told KTVT-TV, the Dallas CBS affiliate. Two boys who said they had been dating the sisters told KXAS-TV in Dallas that Mr. Said was upset that his daughters were involved with non-Muslims.
"She just wanted a normal life, like any American girl wanted," one of the boys told the NBC affiliate station, adding that Sarah "was always kind, gentle, always cheerful, always had a smile on her face."
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645765 - 08/05/12 07:16 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sharia law (Arabic: شريعة šarīʿah, IPA: [ʃaˈriːʕa], "legislation"; sp. shariah, sharīʿah;[1] also قانون إسلامي qānūn ʾIslāmī) is the moral code and religious law of Islam. Sharia deals with many topics addressed by secular law, including crime, politics, and economics, as well as personal matters such as sexual intercourse, hygiene, diet, prayer, and fasting. Though interpretations of sharia vary between cultures, in its strictest definition it is considered the infallible law of God—as opposed to the human interpretation of the laws (fiqh).
There are two primary sources of sharia law: the precepts set forth in the Quran, and the example set by the Islamic prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah. Where it has official status, sharia is interpreted by Islamic judges (qadis) with varying responsibilities for the religious leaders (imams). For questions not directly addressed in the primary sources, they extend the application of sharia through consensus of the religious scholars (ulama) thought to embody the consensus of the Muslim Community (ijma). Islamic jurisprudence will also sometimes incorporate analogies from the Quran and Sunnah through qiyas, though Shia jurists prefer reasoning ('aql) to analogy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
Fix the book or do away with it. To me it shows how uncredible these supposed "prophets" were. Same with the rest of the religions/faiths/traditions.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,313
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645836 - 08/05/12 08:05 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: Did I stutter?
Apparently. "Some" is more than one. You want to name another?
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16645848 - 08/05/12 08:11 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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"Some" is some tribes who take the teachings literally and radically. (fundamentalists)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,313
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645858 - 08/05/12 08:16 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Tribes are not faiths. As far as I know there is only one faith that commits honor killings.
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16645860 - 08/05/12 08:17 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Islamic fundamentalism (Arabic: usul, the "fundamentals") is a term used to describe religious ideologies seen as advocating a return to the "fundamentals" of Islam: the Quran and the Sunnah. Definitions of the term vary. According to Christine L. Kettel, it is deemed problematic by those who suggest that Islamic belief requires all Muslims to be fundamentalists,[1] and by others as a term used by outsiders to describe perceived trends within Islam.[2] Exemplary figures of Islamic fundamentalism who are also termed Islamists are Sayyid Qutb, Ruhollah Khomeini, Abul Ala Mawdudi, and Israr Ahmad.[3] The 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran is seen by Western scholars as a political success of Islamic fundamentalism. Economist Eli Berman argues that Radical Islam is a better term for many post-1920s movements starting with the Muslim Brotherhood, because these movements are seen to practice "unprecedented extremism", thus not qualifying as return to historic fundamentals.[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism
That's not all Muslims.
Quote:
Progressive Muslims have produced a considerable body of liberal thought within Islam[1][2] or "progressive Islam" (Arabic: الإسلام التقدمي); but some consider progressive Islam and liberal Islam as two distinct movements[3]). The methodology of reform can be classified into two groups, one depending on re-interpreting the traditional texts which constitutes Islamic law (ijtihad);[4] this varies widely from little deviation from the traditional interpretation, to the more liberal which considers only the meaning of Qur'an as a divine inspiration, while the wording is believed to be from the prophet Muhammad intended by him to suit his time and situation, therefore interpreting the problematic verses in modern times allegorically or even not considering them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam
Maybe this clears things up?
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16645883 - 08/05/12 08:36 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: As far as I know there is only one faith that commits honor killings.
Sure other religions have, they just called it something different. Take the crusades for example as well as proverbs:
Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.
Proverbs 20:30 Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
King James Version (KJV)
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Enough said?
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DieCommie
El Guapo

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix] 1
#16645929 - 08/05/12 09:05 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enough said?
Not, not really. Quoting the bible is irrelevant unless you believe that garbage. People get judged by their actions, not by the words in their holy book. Islam is not a violent dangerous religion because of the Koran, it is a violent dangerous religion because of Muslims.
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16645977 - 08/05/12 09:32 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Yeah, you are agreeing with the point that was being made in refuting zappa's claim that:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Tribes are not faiths. As far as I know there is only one faith that commits honor killings.
That doesn't do anything to diminish that they are all inconsistent in some manner even though it may or may not be beside the point. If you take the Holy Bible literal or the Quran literal it could result in heinous crimes against your brothers and sisters.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,313
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16646344 - 08/05/12 11:29 AM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Will you kindly produce some news article from the last 100 years that provides an example of a Christian honor killing? Or Jewish? Thanks in advance.
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Enlil
LIL-9000




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,447
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16646446 - 08/05/12 12:01 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Will you kindly produce some news article from the last 100 years that provides an example of a Christian honor killing? Or Jewish? Thanks in advance.
http://answeringchristians.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-christian-honor-killing-and.html
http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/jewish-rally-calls-for-honour-killings/
-------------------- Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16646471 - 08/05/12 12:08 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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They all produce nutters.
When is the last scientist that did a honor killing?
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Enlil
LIL-9000




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 11,447
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16646481 - 08/05/12 12:10 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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The KKK is a christian organization, after all...
-------------------- Ask a defense attorney
Fuck the Amish
Rail_Gun said, "And those kids in CT deserved to die and I'm glad they're dead. I am glad that the survivors will have to "live with it" too. hahaha"
Listerine said, "i want genocide for most of africa"
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,313
Last seen: 3 hours, 25 minutes
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: Enlil]
#16646487 - 08/05/12 12:13 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Will you kindly produce some news article from the last 100 years that provides an example of a Christian honor killing? Or Jewish? Thanks in advance.
http://answeringchristians.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-christian-honor-killing-and.html
That isn't an honor killing
http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/jewish-rally-calls-for-honour-killings/
Neither is that.
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: Enlil]
#16646513 - 08/05/12 12:19 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The KKK is a christian organization, after all...
no shit?
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: zappaisgod]
#16646524 - 08/05/12 12:23 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Imagine if we begin to tally the cults produced from the christian religion.Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Will you kindly produce some news article from the last 100 years that provides an example of a Christian honor killing? Or Jewish? Thanks in advance.
http://answeringchristians.blogspot.com/2011/09/another-christian-honor-killing-and.html
That isn't an honor killing
http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/jewish-rally-calls-for-honour-killings/
Neither is that.
You do remember Andrea Yates right?
Quote:
• CNN.com. "Attorney: Woman thought God told her to kill sons." March 29, 2004. See http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/29/children.slain/ • Associated Press. "Texas Woman Who Stoned Sons Set for Trial." San Jose Mercury News, March 28, 2004. See http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/8299238.htm
Some excerpts: • Deanna Laney, 39, has been charged with two counts of murder in the deaths of sons Joshua, 8, and Luke, 6, and a single count of injury to a child, Aaron, her 15-month-old who survived the attack. (CNN)
• After killing Joshua and Luke, Bingham said, Laney telephoned 911, telling the operator, "I just killed my boys. I don't think I did right by Aaron." (CNN)
• Her husband -- Keith Laney, who has been supportive of his wife -- sat two rows behind the defense table, his head in his hands as the tape was played. (CNN)
• "You will hear that she was a sick person on a quest to be closer to her Lord," Files said. "The only explanation which any of the witnesses can offer for her conduct ... is that Deanna Laney was legally insane."
Files said Laney believed that God had told her the world was going to end and "she had to get her house in order," which included killing her children.
"The dilemma she faced is a terrible one for a mother," Files said. "Does she follow what she believes to be God's will, or does she turn her back on God?"
Files said he would present witnesses who would corroborate Laney's love of her children as well as her belief "that the word of God was infallible."
"It destroyed her ability to discern the wrongness of her act," he said. (CNN)
• "The difficulty in this case is getting the jury to go from the position that everybody thinks she's crazy to the position that she is legally insane under Texas law," Dobbs said.
"It's a very hard standard. ... People can be really mentally ill but if they have the capacity to understand that their conduct is wrong, under our law, they are sane." (Associated Press)I don't know, really, where to begin.
How about with some inward irony? If you go back through the history of my posts, there was a time a few years ago when "clean up your own damn house first" was something I used to tell Christians who dared complain about people or groups who offended their sensibilities. Quite obviously, this isn't what I meant. I was struck by that phrase in the CNN article.
How about the cheap argument? Within religions, these things happen from time to time, and we must consider society's obligation unto itself inasmuch as how many is too many?
Of course, that argument holds religions in a vacuum, and ignores such ideas as the inherent diversity of humanity; for instance, I've argued of sex crimes that even if we were to "educate rape out of society," so that we didn't have 70,000 rapes on college campuses each year, didn't have spousal sexual abuse, didn't have rape as a form of machismo, we would still have to endure a certain amount of deviation.
So we can't fairly hold "Christians" accountable; after all, Christians are mortified: This was the work of Baal, the enemy of children.* Women killing their children is a sign of the Fifth Cycle of Discipline . . . .
. . . . Stoning was the method of capital punishment under the Mosaic Law.* The idea of stoning children to death, which is not even remotely near the truth of scripture, was actually believed by a Christian.* The sad thing is that there are Christian stragglers even in doctrinal churches, who are waiting in line to be the devil's lunch.* When Christians don't love the Lord Jesus Christ, they are doomed to slavery to the Cosmic System.* When Christians don't Rebound they are enslaved to the Cosmic System.* And holy rollers who dance around waving their arms don't know the difference between an emotional jag and the Filling of the Holy Spirit.* Rebound or die !
I can't believe u really need us to point this shit out to you.
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16646532 - 08/05/12 12:25 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Wonder where she got those loony ass ideas?
Quote:
The Church of Christ, according to its own web site, considers the books of the Bible “to have been divinely inspired, by which it is meant that they are infallible and authoritative.” It subscribes, like all the fundamentalist sects, to archaic and reactionary conceptions of the family and a woman’s role in society. The following view of relations between the sexes, from another Christian web site, is probably typical: “When a man and woman marry, they take certain functional positions. Men are called to be the head of the household while women are to submit to them. The husband has the final authority, and responsibility, for what goes on in the home. He listens to his wife, then makes the decisions based on Biblical wisdom.” http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jul2001/yate-j02.shtml
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teknix
ÐøøÐ


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 7,857
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Re: Speaking honestly about Islam in the US, UK. [Re: teknix]
#16646535 - 08/05/12 12:26 PM (9 months, 12 days ago) |
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Supidity =/= Insanity
Honor killings is just one example, now tally the cults derived from such prophecies in the bible.
Quote:
Heaven's Gate: On March 26, 1997, in Rancho Santa Fe, Calif., 39 members of a cult called Heaven's Gate were found dead at a rented mansion. They had poisoned themselves with a mixture of applesauce, vodka and barbiturates. The cultists left a video message saying they were shedding their "earthly containers" to join a spaceship trailing the Hale Bopp comet.
Order of the Solar Temple: On March 22, 1997, in St. Casimir, Quebec, five members of the Order of the Solar Temple die in a fiery mass suicide. Cult devotees believe suicide transports them to a new life on a planet called Sirius.
Order of the Solar Temple: On Dec. 23, 1995, 16 members of the Order of the Solar Temple were found dead in a burned house outside Grenoble, in the French Alps. Most of the bodies were arranged in a star shape on the floor.
Order of the Solar Temple: On Oct. 5, 1994, Swiss authorities found the bodies of 48 people linked to the same cult in a farmhouse and three chalets, all consumed by fire. Five more bodies were found the same year in Morin Heights, north of Montreal.
Branch Davidians: On April 19, 1993, Branch Davidian leader David Koresh and 80 followers - including 18 children - died by fire or gunfire, six hours after the FBI started filling their cult compound near Waco, Texas, with tear gas. Federal officials called the deaths a mass suicide, but Branch Davidians are pursuing a wrongful death lawsuit against the government.
Mexican Sect: On Dec. 13, 1990, in Tijuana, Mexico, 12 people die in a religious ritual, apparently after drinking a poisoned sacrament. It was never clearly established if this was a suicide and authorities speculated the deaths might have been accidental. They said some kind of industrial alcohol, perhaps rubbing alcohol, was poured into a fruit punch the participants shared during the religious ceremony.
South Korean Sect:On Aug. 29, 1987, in Yongin, South Korea, the bodies of 32 people were found in a factory attic after they took drugs and strangled each other. Authorities said factory owner Park Soon-ja, who died with the group, was called "Benevolent Mother" and had claimed God told her to seek disciples. Her sect preached that the world was about to end.
People's Temple: On Nov. 18, 1978, in Jonestown, Guyana, more than 900 followers of the Rev. Jim Jones died after he ordered them to drink cyanide-laced grape punch. Jones, who was found dead with a bullet wound in the head, led the Peoples Temple in San Francisco and moved it to Guyana. In the United States, the Peoples Temple ran a free clinic, a drug rehabilitation program and performed other charitable functions. http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-178621.html
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