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 White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
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 Re: Grace  [Re: lolwut]
#16607800 - 07/28/12 09:35 PM (9 months, 20 days ago) |
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Ah, okay cool. 
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,888
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
palmersc said:
Grace. Grace is getting what we don't deserve. It is God bestowing on his enemies the riches of His kindness and love. We are rebels by nature, we are self seeking at our core and believe we can do just fine without God. Until we see our need for grace, we will continue on in bondage to self and hostility to God. We are blind in our sickness and cannot receive the healing God provides to the humble.
Jesus put it this way: “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
God's patience with us as we spit in His face is grace. Today is the day of salvation, for the thread of grace which keeps those who despise God alive today may be cut off tomorrow.
I "deserve" everything that life gives, good or ill. This is the same for everyone. No god needed.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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stillsearching
Stranger
Registered: 06/11/12
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Who's to say we don't deserve it all? Enemies? Rebels? Spitting? Huh?? I have found grace within myself. I don't need God either but if you do go ahead!
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“I wonder if being sane means disregarding the chaos that is life, pretending only an infinitesimal segment of it is reality.”
"Only to the extent that man exposes himself over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible arise within him. In this lies the dignity of daring... Only if we venture repeatedly through zones of annihilation can our contact with Divine Being, which is beyond annihilation, become firm and stable. The more a man learns wholeheartedly to confront the world which threatens him with isolation, the more are the depths of the Ground of Being revealed and the possibilities of new life and Becoming opened."
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Quote:
White Beard said:
It's because we can create meaning in our mind, find coincidence where there is none, and interpret things in many ways. Really, anything one thing can be interpreted in millions of ways. This leads to a trap IMO. We find emotional comfort when our ideas match up with scripture of this or that ancient group of peoples, and it does feel fucking good, so fucking good that we think we have finally found 'truth'. But truth isn't something to grab onto and make an identity out of, even though we really want some sort of safety net in this madness.
I really liked Icelander's 'big mistake' thread in the philosophy section. Kind of what I'm trying to convey right now.
Yeah. Been there, done that. I was special. Now I only believe my bullshit when its "scientific". Gotta work on that now too. 
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
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Quote:
palmersc said:
God's Word, the Bible, is the indictment against us. If you want to know God and His will, you cannot separate it from His Word. The truth is not within us and we are void of any truth apart from God imparting it to us.
Our rebellious nature goes back to the beginning. Our earliest ancestors, Adam and Eve, thrust mankind into rebellion which has been passed down to us. No we didn't sign up, and sin to us is like water to a fish, but that doesn't excuse us because there is redemption in Jesus. He paid the price we could not. He offers us grace if we acknowledge our need.
God's grace delivers us and sets us free from what we are enslaved to, be it our emotions, our passions, our lusts, or our pride. Grace enables us to freely do what is right.
Man is spiritually dead in his unregenerate state. Why would anyone need grace if they are not sensible of sin and unrighteousness? The Holy Spirit makes those who are to be saved, the elect, sensible of their own lost and ruined condition upon their conversion. The tragedy of natural man is that he has no ability to understand grace, sin, or judgment. Only the work of the Holy Spirit, can make these things known.
No part of salvation can be attributed to the efforts of man. It is not an offer, it is a unilateral gift to those who God has appointed from eternity past to save. If a man does believe, repent, become sensible of sin, etc., it is solely because God has given him these things as proof of salvation.
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stumpme
Stranger
Registered: 03/27/12
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thanks for the post on grace
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just give me a field and a sun ray!
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc: 
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Seen clearly, everything is Grace, everything
Edited by The Chronic (07/30/12 04:09 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,447
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
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Grace is the Error, played 'good' 
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palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Quote:
The Chronic said:
Seen clearly, everything is Grace, everything
There is much truth in what you say.
We are all recipients of immense grace. My intentions are to share the measure grace I have apprehended in the infinite sea of uncharted grace that is available for the taking. I remember years back being at an AA meeting and we went around the room sharing what we were thankful for; gratitude being the attitude of appreciating grace. When it came to me I said, "I'm not thankful for anything, I just know I'm here." How sad. That is the attitude of one who knows nothing of God's goodness and His grace, and I know I'm not the only crooked man out there!
This being said, the truth is that there is coming a day of reckoning. There is coming a day in each of our lives when the plug will be pulled and it will matter what we did and how we lived.
It is unwise to bury one's head in the sand of intellectualism or whatever esoteric brand of self centered spirituality that has no answers to life's foundational questions.
When I am in God's presence deep in prayer, there is no doubt He is condescending to commune with me, that He loves us this much. To those who depend on their intellect to understand reality, I don't care if you have an IQ of 400, you cannot fathom the foothills of Truth found only in Christ Jesus.
I take great joy in the fear of God. It could be said some people jump out of planes and others scale mountains to get that adrenaline rush, it by no means compares to basking in the glory of the eternal Creator with every bit of my being exposed to His all knowing eyes. It is very intimate, and the empty pleasures of wealth, fame, success, or power do not compare to the unspeakable peace and joy found only in Christ.
To fivepointer, yes you are correct in what you say. It is also true the grace and forgiveness found in Jesus is an open invitation. To all those who are thirsty, come and drink our Lord said before He went to the cross. We are called to the Great Commission and my prayer is that one thirsty soul may stumble across this conversation, and I agree that would be no accident in God's sovereign plan. However, with our limited perspective we sow seeds and trust God with the results. If you would like to talk about theology please PM me because I am with you man. We are to be one in the Spirit as brothers in this thread. We can debate points men of God have tossed around for centuries which have tragically caused division in the Body of Christ and grieves the Lord who bought us.
As I stated before, if you are not thirsty, if you see no need for Jesus, there is nothing in this life for you but empty pleasure and certain judgment. That is where we all are before God lifts the scales from our eyes and we see ourselves as the paupers we are.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
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Hi, I have a question. You, and many Christians claim that truth/getting to God can only come through Jesus. What does this mean exactly? What does it mean to give your life to Jesus, or to have a relationship with Jesus? Be as specific as possible, as this is something that has always confused me.
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palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Hi, I have a question. You, and many Christians claim that truth/getting to God can only come through Jesus. What does this mean exactly? What does it mean to give your life to Jesus, or to have a relationship with Jesus? Be as specific as possible, as this is something that has always confused me.
This is a good question. A way to explain this could be to look at what a relationship is. Take your best friend for instance. This is a very close relationship in the types of conversations, the intimacy shared, the subtle nuances and inside jokes only you two know about. You are always there for them, and they are always there for you. More on this after explaining why Jesus is the only way to know God.
Jesus is the Mediator between us and God the Father (this may lead to other questions). The only way to have fellowship with God is to be without sin and to be set apart entirely for God's purposes without blemish, complete holiness. None of us have measured up and broke pretty much every law in the book, so are destined to eternal separation from God in hell as accomplices with the evil spirits which rebelled against God in eternity past.
But! Yes, Thank God, Jesus dwelt among us, and He being God incarnate, lived a life that fulfilled the written code of Law perfectly and offered up His life as a ransom to all who trust in Him. Grace is getting His reward for what we could never do. The reward is God Himself!
When you cast your eternal destiny upon Jesus alone, a relationship begins that is more intimate than any you've known. When I talk about prayer as I did in my earlier post, I am sharing a snippet of what that relationship looks like. Sadly even many Christians would not know really what I am talking about when I say the communion is better than sex. God created us as we are to fellowship with us, and all the problems in the world are our rejection of the natural created order. You could say cars are made to run on gasoline, and men are made to run on God. If I complained my car would not run on water, it would be much like trying to live life without knowing Jesus, He being our access to fellowship with God.
If you asked me to explain your relationship with your wife in something this brief it would not do it justice. How much more with God!
The all prevailing theme is love. Love. Just loving on each other. Really it is more Him loving on me. Relationships take time and they grow through blood, sweat, and tears. When you know Jesus, you get to walk with the Ancient of Days and see Him come through over and over in the big and the small things, often in hindsight, but the closer you draw to Him, the more personal it gets and He gives you insight into what He's doing in your life and those around you.
The reason I place an emphasis on judgment and the eternal condemnation for sin is because it's true. It's true. Life is very serious, and we being created in the image of God bear a great honor and responsibility. But there is One who will bear the sin you have committed and will commit. There is One who spilled His blood so you would not have to, there is One who conquered death so that it has lost it's sting, there is One who loves you and wants to share this adventure with you. He's not threatening you, He's just laying it out there, saying Hey, "This is how it is, I'm God and I know what's best." He didn't make us robots so we must respond to His call or reject it. A pale analogy would be like a two year old stepping into a brain surgery underway and demand to perform the procedure. God is like that surgeon that is willing to teach us, but will not tolerate rebellion against His headship. He did create, let's see.... everything. He looks upon us as ants trying to understand the universe. But He loves us and in pity condescends to our level. The mystery that God dwelt with us as the Man, Jesus, to show us how to become brain surgeons so to speak. He will show us the heights and depths of what He created and give us access to Himself, even giving us His Spirit to live inside of us and a blank check in Heaven.
Ask Him to show you your sin. Once that is settled, the relationship can begin. First you got to come clean, then you move on into His endless love.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
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Thanks for the write up, though I still have some questions. When I'm with my best friend, I can see him, hear him, and we can share information, and confirm that he is the guy I know. This is what I was initially asking; when you commune with God, how do you know it's Jesus you are speaking to? Do you have visions of Jesus, hear his voice? Does he tell you that he is Jesus?
Hindus claim when they chant Hare Krishna they feel God, and it's better then sex, so who am I suppose to believe here? Every religion seems to claim ultimate authority, with practitioners claiming unbelievable experiences. Either everyone is right, or a whole shit load of people are lying. Now which ones are lying?
Oh, and one more question: why did God create standards that can only be lived up himself incarnating as a person? What's the point of a law if everyone is automatically guilty just for existing? I know the story of Adam and Eve and original sin, but he didn't have to place a forbidden tree in arms reach, did he? Why did he create sin at all if he is omnipotent?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Because 'without sin' means living eternally 
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palmersc
Stranger
Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 422
Loc: Arkansas
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Thanks for the write up, though I still have some questions. When I'm with my best friend, I can see him, hear him, and we can share information, and confirm that he is the guy I know. This is what I was initially asking; when you commune with God, how do you know it's Jesus you are speaking to? Do you have visions of Jesus, hear his voice? Does he tell you that he is Jesus?
Visual proof of God. Hmmmm. As many say, seeing is believing, but that is not the wisdom of God. God's wisdom says believe and you will see. God's economy runs on faith. Hebrews 11:1 gives a definition of faith:
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Faith has substance in that it is not just a mere intellectual ascension to Truth, and there is evidence in that it is not a stab in the dark. The evidence is found in God's Word and the substance is found by communing with God in much prayer. If you believe the Bible is just as relevant or irrelevant as any spiritual writing, then you cannot enter into the faith I am talking about. God places a heavy emphasis on Truth. Truth is not subjective, it is not negotiable. On the Day of judgment it will be the Word that judges us. You could say I was immensely open minded before I met Jesus, As you can see from some of my earliest posts on this board. I read pretty much everything but the Bible. Strange that the Bible was neglected. Hmmmm. The danger I see on this board is found in Paul's final letter before being martyred:
"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
The last line I am speaking of particularly. Why be on a search for truth if you never expect to arrive? Always seeking, just asking questions for the fun of it. When you meet God you know it, and then as one person put it:
“Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”
I have closed my mind on that which is solid, and I seek to share it with other weary pilgrims who may be thirsty.
Relationships are personal. I could give you a bunch of facts and tell you testimonies of God's faithfulness in my unique circumstances. I have had very few true visions from God. The one that first got my attention was of hell. I knew I was on my way there. You better believe I was more afraid than I'd ever been.
In order to know you are speaking with Jesus there must first have an encounter with Him. You will know, it won't be vague, trust me. Once you know somebody, you don't keep asking them their name since you know them. You do bring up a good point for somebody who wants to go deeper in their realtionship with Christ. There is an enemy army of evil spirits which seek to confuse and deceive people. Demons often whisper in our ears and seek to masquerade as God. Just because you hear a voice doesn't mean it's God. Voices usually aren't God, He speaks to me in my intuition and through His Word. Answered prayers also never cease to amaze me. I know Jesus on a level deeper than the intellect. My experience of knowing Jesus is when I first started out there were more frequent nudges from His Spirit to let me know I was going in the right direction. He would shower me with experiences of ecstasy, and in worship divine electricity would often course through my body. As we mature though I believe it becomes a walk of raw faith at times with blessed moments of His unspeakable comfort and love when we need rest and refreshment.
Quote:
White Beard said:
Hindus claim when they chant Hare Krishna they feel God, and it's better then sex, so who am I suppose to believe here? Every religion seems to claim ultimate authority, with practitioners claiming unbelievable experiences. Either everyone is right, or a whole shit load of people are lying. Now which ones are lying?
I talk about the experiences because they are beautiful. However, experiences really don't amount to much. Before I devoted my life to Christ I practiced Zen Buddhism and Yoga and had many "experiences." I had many other experiences on shrooms, mescaline, and LSD which had me pretty well convinced I was progressing on a spiritual path to greater revelation and truth. I know God is a God of order and wants us to intelligently learn form Him and cooperate with Him as He leads us. These experiences that come through clearing the mind, chanting, and relinquishing one's will is not the way to know God. Becoming passive in our will only opens the doors to demonic manipulation. 5 years later I am still picking up a lot of broken pieces in my soul and God is healing me, delivering me, and closing doors I opened up through occult practices.
Quote:
White Beard said:
Oh, and one more question: why did God create standards that can only be lived up himself incarnating as a person? What's the point of a law if everyone is automatically guilty just for existing? I know the story of Adam and Eve and original sin, but he didn't have to place a forbidden tree in arms reach, did he? Why did he create sin at all if he is omnipotent?
I am a child in God's Kingdom, a mere man who has submitted to God without having everything figured out. I will give you the answers to these questions which have me at peace. First off man did not have to rebel. God created man with a free will unbound to the rebellion that would ensue. I believe God wanted fellowship with man, not robots he could wind up and direct their every move. He gave man free reign and told him all the earth was his to subdue and rule over. That sounds pretty far from being overbearing and restrictive. He gave man His entire creation to tend to and explore without limit. The only stipulation was not to eat from one tree. I believe this was to teach man something about authority. We are men, HE is God. But that wasn't good enough for man as they decided to listen to the lie that they could be like God and rebelled with those intentions. Immediately though, you see God's love and mercy when He confronts them in their sin. He clothes them and sends them away with a promise of redemption in Genesis 3:15. This didn't catch God off guard, and He is by no means the author of sin. Sin is disregard for God's Law. He wants those who will willingly submit to Him and love Him, worshiping in spirit and truth.
My intentions in this thread on grace have been to give the remedy as God outlines in His Word. The answer to man's problem is the completed work of Jesus on the cross. It is quite simple, simple enough for a child to apprehend, yet deep enough to embark on an eternal journey with God seeking out the unsearchable riches in Christ.
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treesniper119
No one of Consequence
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Underground
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Quote:
palmersc said:
This is found in the book of Proverbs, maybe a good place to begin reading through in the Bible. It was penned by the wisest man to ever live, it is the wisdom book in the Bible:
"There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death." - Proverbs 14:12
Our mind is darkened apart from God's revealing light. We by nature are like cockroaches who scurry into the darkness. We stumble around in the darkness depending on our natural discernment when we do what seems best in the moment. If you are willing to let the light shine on you and let the Great Physician do His work, honestly taking inventory in light of what God's Word shows you, He will honor you and gladly show you what is good.
i dont believe "the bible" is the be all end all source of god knowledge as you are kind of touting it to be...the only difference between you and another denomination (jehovas witness for ex.) is the constant addition of the name JEHOVA GOD peppered throughout its context, its a man made and church ordained book that has survived through the church, it is littered with inconsistencies and ungodly things not to mention books left out (like enoch, a very crucial component for spiritual evolution), perhaps a better description would be to rename the bible entirely, call it the accounts of lost children, and the lies & times of struggle before the great rebirth. if you want a relationship with the source all you need to do is be still and breathe asking for true wisdom to be revealed to you. for your heart to be softened, and your ears & your eyes to be opened so that your perspectives become one. ask for love & understanding. you will recieve what you ask for. and in doing this daily, you will begin your walk side by side.
who wrote this? solomon. a man filled with more earthly wisdom than any before or after him, yet he was persuaded in the end years of his life to by his multiple wives, to seek & worship false gods, even solomon was lead a stray.
grace exist because of the confusion wrought upon this earth & gods children, by the first teacher, now the enemy of god. if the purpose for our creation was to live in paradise with god and his love, then we were made perfect and upright, but only through the fall and deception was grace necessary for his lost sheep, grace is an understanding/forgiving form of the unconditional love of god. God delights in himself. he doesnt need to grace himself with his grace. once we are in perfect harmony & understanding again grace and mercy will no longer be thought/necessary.
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Sit down before fact like a little child, and be pre- pared to give up every preconceivednotion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
--T. H. Huxley
Edited by treesniper119 (07/31/12 09:41 PM)
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treesniper119
No one of Consequence
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Underground
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
palmersc said:
Grace. Grace is getting what we don't deserve. It is God bestowing on his enemies the riches of His kindness and love. We are rebels by nature, we are self seeking at our core and believe we can do just fine without God. Until we see our need for grace, we will continue on in bondage to self and hostility to God. We are blind in our sickness and cannot receive the healing God provides to the humble.
Jesus put it this way: “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
God's patience with us as we spit in His face is grace. Today is the day of salvation, for the thread of grace which keeps those who despise God alive today may be cut off tomorrow.
I "deserve" everything that life gives, good or ill. This is the same for everyone. No god needed.
we deserve only the truth and the light, death and destruction are only consequential and temporary, there was a time before death existed on this plane, in that timeless "now" was called eternal life, we will all have that choice again. all gods children will find him, even the most wicked, for they once retained innocence before being lead a stray or improperly taught.
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Sit down before fact like a little child, and be pre- pared to give up every preconceivednotion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
--T. H. Huxley
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treesniper119
No one of Consequence
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 976
Loc: Underground
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Palmersc said: As I stated before, if you are not thirsty, if you see no need for Jesus, there is nothing in this life for you but empty pleasure and certain judgment. That is where we all are before God lifts the scales from our eyes and we see ourselves as the paupers we are.
If you were a father and your child was stolen from you and raised in evil ways, tricked into giving up his/her birth right, accepting his evil up bringing & eventually formed into an evil man, a murderer, what father would then judge his child at trial? when the child was stolen and never given the proper chance to learn, hindered by lies and the confusion of our earthly teachers? No, instead god gave jesus as the good teacher and the final sacrafice man would commit would again bring us into direct connection with his love. by our evil lessons and actions did we murder sinfully while unknowingly embracing the all powerful self sacrifice that go prepared through his son jesus so that the seeds of healing love would be finally sown upon the sick ground and its stolen children. we are all god seed, sown upon bad ground by a bad servant of gods fields. wrath will come, but it is not nor was it ever intended fof his bride/children/family.
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Sit down before fact like a little child, and be pre- pared to give up every preconceivednotion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.
--T. H. Huxley
Edited by treesniper119 (07/31/12 09:19 PM)
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,110
Last seen: 21 days, 20 hours
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Quote:
palmersc said:
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Seen clearly, everything is Grace, everything
There is much truth in what you say.
We are all recipients of immense grace. My intentions are to share the measure grace I have apprehended in the infinite sea of uncharted grace that is available for the taking. I remember years back being at an AA meeting and we went around the room sharing what we were thankful for; gratitude being the attitude of appreciating grace. When it came to me I said, "I'm not thankful for anything, I just know I'm here." How sad. That is the attitude of one who knows nothing of God's goodness and His grace, and I know I'm not the only crooked man out there!
This being said, the truth is that there is coming a day of reckoning. There is coming a day in each of our lives when the plug will be pulled and it will matter what we did and how we lived.
It is unwise to bury one's head in the sand of intellectualism or whatever esoteric brand of self centered spirituality that has no answers to life's foundational questions.
When I am in God's presence deep in prayer, there is no doubt He is condescending to commune with me, that He loves us this much. To those who depend on their intellect to understand reality, I don't care if you have an IQ of 400, you cannot fathom the foothills of Truth found only in Christ Jesus.
I take great joy in the fear of God. It could be said some people jump out of planes and others scale mountains to get that adrenaline rush, it by no means compares to basking in the glory of the eternal Creator with every bit of my being exposed to His all knowing eyes. It is very intimate, and the empty pleasures of wealth, fame, success, or power do not compare to the unspeakable peace and joy found only in Christ.
To fivepointer, yes you are correct in what you say. It is also true the grace and forgiveness found in Jesus is an open invitation. To all those who are thirsty, come and drink our Lord said before He went to the cross. We are called to the Great Commission and my prayer is that one thirsty soWe are all recipients of immense grace. My intentions are to share the measure grace I have apprehended in the infinite sea of uncharted grace that is available for the taking.ul may stumble across this conversation, and I agree that would be no accident in God's sovereign plan. However, with our limited perspective we sow seeds and trust God with the results. If you would like to talk about theology please PM me because I am with you man. We are to be one in the Spirit as brothers in this thread. We can debate points men of God have tossed around for centuries which have tragically caused division in the Body of Christ and grieves the Lord who bought us.
As I stated before, if you are not thirsty, if you see no need for Jesus, there is nothing in this life for you but empty pleasure and certain judgment. That is where we all are before God lifts the scales from our eyes and we see ourselves as the paupers we are.
palmersc stated:
"We are all recipients of immense grace. My intentions are to share the measure grace I have apprehended in the infinite sea of uncharted grace that is available for the taking."
While it is true that everyone is a recipient of many good things, these good things only work against the reprobate, since they are thankless for them. It is actually a curse against them and works against them in the day of judgment.
palmersc stated:
"To fivepointer, yes you are correct in what you say. It is also true the grace and forgiveness found in Jesus is an open invitation. To all those who are thirsty, come and drink our Lord said before He went to the cross. We are called to the Great Commission and my prayer is that one thirsty soul are all recipients of immense grace."
You miss the point of the spiritual deadness of the unregenerate man. Who is thirsty? NO ONE! It takes the unilateral action of God to bring to life a spiritually dead person. I never said not to bring the gospel to everyone. But God has to do ALL the work in salvation. Man can't do a thing on his own. All spiritual works outside of the unilateral action of God only bring forth dead fruit and false religion.
I do not believe that we are of one Spirit, since the gospel you are bringing rests in the efforts of man, in some shape or form, which make the gospel a works religion. Works and true grace can NEVER mix. Grace is WITHOUT condition. Grace is freely given, otherwise it ceases to be grace.
This isn't a matter of mere higher theological discussion. It cuts right down to the essentials of the gospel. Without sovereign grace you have missed the gospel entirely.
Edited by fivepointer (07/31/12 07:23 PM)
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