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White Beard said:
Remind yourself constantly that you are dying.

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TheDukeofLizards said:
For me, I came to the realization that it was up to me to give my life meaning and importance.

I had to find something deeper inside myself that made me want to keep going. I realized that just because the things I do in my life will never matter in 'the grand scheme of things', isn't any reason to not keep challenging myself with new goals and hobbies and living with integrity.

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  I can't buy into this subjective meaning business, It seems that in our snatching and clawing to find an objective purpose for our existence, we always come up short. We then resort to the "Well I'll do what I think Is important", and I'm sorry, but this sounds to me, too much like "let them eat cake".

  I see the continuation of our species (procreation), and it's continued advancement into the future as two obvious,and arguably, big contenders for an objective purpose, at least as a conceivable purpose to us, forming, frolicking, and failing within.

  I also see examples of people living in the spirit of subjective meaning, making a mess of the world, life, existence. Then I think well none of it matters, because there is no point to it. The whole system of existence seems be without cause or reason outside of serving that within. This is apparently ok for the lesser forms here, the 'less conscious' animals, but we struggle. Animals seem to do both, they live a subjectively meaningful life following their instincts and evolved behaviours, while at the same time living an objectively meaningful life, at least in regard to procreation and advancing their species through exposure to evolution.

  I don't want to live like an animal, this doesn't seem like the answer, I imagine it to be a very numb and dull experience, but then I wouldn't care. What about a state of heightened awareness while fulfilling none of the objective criteria, or while conforming to the criteria ?

  A regular happening on mushrooms, is the sense that the world is for some unknown reason, ridiculous, It compels me to fits of giggles. This is true don't you think ?,
or is it only ridiculous to the self-relating mechanism of the ego ? Without which there would be no 'Us', just something more closely resembling an animal.

  Sorry if this is old, regurgitated, repetative, and retarded, I've been away a while.

  It's good to empty this shit somewhere.

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White Beard said:
Remind yourself constantly that you are dying.

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tribesman said:
No harm, no foul.

  Would you like to read my excuse for my absence around these parts, and for my trekking my way over old terrain ? It might be of interest, and you may even find it mildly amusing.

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GoreTuzk said:
You come to that realization because you think you are limited by the barrier of the epidermis, when in fact your skin doesn't separate you from the environment, it unites you to it. You are not just important in the grand scheme of things, you are the grand scheme of things.

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That's an ugly thought.

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tribesman said:
Realizing you're not important in the grand scheme of things is relatively common. Continuing to live your life like you know this is somehow a lot less common.

I can probably guess the why, but how does one win this battle, or a least gain the upper hand ?

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GoreTuzk said:
You come to that realization because you think you are limited by the barrier of the epidermis, when in fact your skin doesn't separate you from the environment, it unites you to it. You are not just important in the grand scheme of things, you are the grand scheme of things.

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tribesman said:
Yes possibly, limit exposure to aspects of life that present a risk of attachment and loss. Arguably limiting the emotional blast radius of my own disappearance from the world on family and friends is another possibility. Is it not more like shying away from the responsibility of living?

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tribesman said:
I remember, think I need to go back to it. (definitely )

This brings me back nicely to what I was going to say to Icelander.

  After my big experience last year I got a bit fixated by the state I had experienced. This took me down low, or what the consensus would deem as low. I started viewing life as an anomaly, a spark, sharing space and time with other anomalies, united by futility, but utterly distracted from that fact, at least in real life observations.

  Watching and interacting with people doing everyday things, and planning for the future. Younger siblings, cousins, and friends living their lives, getting married having kids. Friends of a similar age to myself coming out of long term relationships, scarred and weary. I didn't want any piece of this dream, for surely I was certain to wake to nothingness. So I focused on what that certainty would bring, nothing, death.  The surrender and release I had experienced had crystallized into indifference and a nihilistic outlook, does that sound like the correct comparison ?. 

  White beard said "Remind yourself constantly that you are dying.", that is a quite understated example of how I was living my days. In my black stupor, I was convinced by family to try the consensus route out. I visited my doctor and was prescribed antidepressants, which I have been taking for about three months. For the first eight weeks, my ability to maintain my concentration and focus on thoughts became poor. Putting together a paragraph or writing four lines of lyrics for tune became too difficult. I mentioned it to you Kickle in a thread in the 'other room'.

  I actually missed my mind, it's ability to build and create. Now more recently my ability to concentrate has got better again, my facebook had been neglected, but I always look in on the shroomery to see what you're all prattling on about. I just found it hard to hold thoughts long enough to compose what I wanted to say, and then get it wrote down. The indifference has turned to a more selfless attitude in my life, not something I had expected or really hoped for. It seems that the indifference to self has remained, but because I'm still interacting with family and friends I'm living my life only by reacting to theirs, and their demands on me.

  I'm not working, I'm single, I have no children, and I live alone. I'm woken up, usually by a friend or family member, to give me my first reason to get out of bed for the day, and the rest of the day unfolds from there. I have no purpose of my own so I'm living my life through them. This self-forgetting new approach to daily existence is novel, but I feel a new shell forming, crusting over the broken one. I'm becoming valued again, but it's not making me feel self-important, because I'm not important, I have nothing to do but what is required of me by them.   

I read something which made me think of this in TDOD, The chapter called: A general view of mental illness, Depression. I'm not going to quote it here, but it seemed to be describing a similar thing.     

All I can do is watch, for I'm certain this shell will be broken again, it's inescapable. I'm becoming that from which I became, maybe over and over again, maybe just the once. I could go on but I've already run over.

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Well you've created a nice new shield for yourself. Congrats   Not many can manage that.

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redgreenvines said:
Beloved members wake you and you live on their account - no purpose of one's own - wounded by a vision of insignificance that happened during a sacred voyage.

Any theory or practice does not change this condition.
every intelligent issue is cast in the light of this condition.

This is a valid starting point.
Actually more than a starting point.
Shall I continue later?

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tribesman said:
Please continue...

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redgreenvines said:
well, you know I was not aware that - in addition to the universe - your girlfriend died - grief is its own starting point.

loss
of significant other
and
loss of significance
both at the same time.

they say you can take refuge in the buddha(1), in the dharma(2) and the sanga(3).
which means in the principle of quiet yet resilient inner wisdom(1), the facts of life(2), and the brotherhood of humanity(3) (particularly those with similar orientation)

it seems your family (part of sanga) have come to aid you during bereavement and other suffering and that a new lady (also sangha) is relating to you nicely, but you are relating back as damaged goods
and you are damaged
by loss
bereavement
disillusionment
depression.

(...............do I read this correctly so far?)
shall I continue?

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tribesman said:
Yes, perfectly, but for the addition that I had come to the lady I lost, after a long spell of depression and loss of purpose. Compassion was at the core of our relationship, and because she made me feel needed/wanted, she gave me a purpose.

Sorry don't mean to ramble on, please continue.

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Maitreya said:
Wounds heal faster when sheltered from the elements.

Sometimes, when they aren't sheltered, they don't heal at all.

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tribesman said:
redgreenvines said:  I see that part of difficulty in acceptance and moving on is that the new companion is not equal to the old companion.
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  I don't think that equality is an issue with this new potential relationship, either  by comparison with my former partner and the new interest or myself and said interest. The main reason for the opportunity is that this other female has made her interest evident for a while. Usually to be rebuffed by me, lost in an ocean of woe. 

  She's is attractive and clever, everything I would maybe of wanted before. Nor is the reason directly because of my experience, probably more like the drive towards this experience is what sets us apart. She has also suffered immense loss in the last few years, and I felt maybe we might be good for each other. The tablets I have been taking have made my social life a very reactionary venture, both with friends and this female. By this I mean that, well here's something I scribbled a couple of weeks back (all in the spirit of the shroomery).

" My mind has come back, smashing through the medication after two months. I knew my depression wouldn't let me down. Has it really been two months, I had lost my capacity to preform thoughts, sentences, and paragraphs. How I missed you paragraph, I felt like I had regained half of my brain. The separation I had cultivated between my cautious, analytical, and indecisive mind, and the speak first, think later, confident personality was smashed."

  This made it harder for me to keep my distance from people, because I was nearly all  mouth and no brain (yes, haha). I got easily drawn into social situations I would normally hide away from, and it's like losing control of your personality, like it's radio controlled or something. It's seems also like trading the external boundaries of walls and space, for internal distance, but right back, even behind your own thoughts, and like I said "reactionary".
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redgreenvines said: this time there is grief piled on top of depression, and extra pain with the new relationship since it is not effective replacement so maybe
guilt for lack of whole hearted love for the new and guilt for loss of the old.

in other words a sense of responsibility exists towards the new relationship, and it is compromised by the failures of the universe to satisfy in the past, and
a sense of responsibility to clear your slate compromised by fatalism half expecting everything to fail and wash out as it has before.
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  I feel like because of my medication I have let my guard down, and not in a sensible way. I have been keeping my distance and now I'll never be that far away again. I can sense no guilt in myself, I washed my hands of unnecessary guilt, I can't hold myself responsible for not being able save my ex-girlfriend, nor for not being able to change the course of history and have her stay, nor for being unable to visit her in heaven and speak with her once more. I don't see it as fatalist because in the end everything  will fail and washout. I think have lost my value of identity, or individual identity, of personality and character. I can't buy in to the ego, and yet it yabbers on, living it's life.
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redgreenvines said:  OK, so you have tribesman stuck in a rut, all his people know it, and even understand part of the cosmology, and all his people keep giving him support, (that is sangha - you are taking refuge in the sangha )
and you have tribesman struggling (through the depression) to modulate his perception of things - really trying to make things better - yet facing near certainty that things will never get better.
and tribesman knows that words and action do influence reality and thought influences words and action (all of that is true - you are taking refuge in the truth - dharma) by this understanding you get some perspective.
the perspective is slightly different than the one that says all life is insignificant.
importantly different.
you have to take some refuge in that to counter the erosion that the earlier realization which was close but *not exactly true*.

then to help with turning the page into a story that ends in a new way, you want to let the new person shine in her own light - not in the shadow of the deceased companion support, and for that you need to remain calm, you need to take refuge in your ability to manage thoughts that bring peace or bring guilt (this is the refuge in buddha or tranquility)

you know that you have an effect (inconsistent with the original realization) and that your effect can be to improve the relationship on its own merits (not the shadow crippled limitation of the past) yet to enable this you have to fail to react like an automaton.

Using your inner strength you have to see how the shadow of the past works and you have to suppress reflex rejection that is inappropriate to the new girl. Anything from the shadow has to be slowed down to give a fair playing handicap to the new players. You understand the disaster of past events casts the shadow and that shadow adds to difficulty, so you allow light to shine on its own by remaining calm and letting the shadow of past be just that, of the past, remaining calm you fail to promote shadow into the present and future.
(you just took refuge in buddha)

so they say you take three refuges, in the buddha, in the dharma and in the sangha

inner vision of the mind process as it applies to you
understanding of mind process and life
and people around you

all conspire to heal you and your situation, you take refuge to help it
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Brilliant , thanks for breaking down the buddha, dharma and sangha for me. I find it hard to see fault with your advice, other than to say that if I were to enter into another committed relationship, it would feel like going back to the start of the cycle, and as much as I want to avoid that kind of loss again, nor am I too keen on bringing that kind of grief on another.

Why do I keep using responsibility as an excuse ?

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tribesman said:
All I want is to go back to the abyss, to return to that which birthed me. Life is too hard, and I see no purpose for my individualized awareness here. There are plenty of others, and the ones close to me are not my responsibility, nor am I theirs.

  If the world refuses to beat a path to my door, I shall wait for the ground to swallow me whole. I want none of this, no thing. I want not to laugh or cry, to love or hate I want that glorious numbness back.

  This universe is an empty thing, the abyss is a superfluous nothing.

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Icelander said:
What good would it do  to lie to myself now, I'm staring failure in the face every time I look in a mirror or at a newspaper. 

The thing about DA is that until we know how it motivates we have an unconscious immortality project keeping us chipper to some extent.  IMO once you fully grok as much as humanly possible the fact that you are likely impermanent, you're as good as dead now.  So if you can handle that information you might like to live for the pleasure in the moment but that won't last. Decay disease and death awaits. So the best thing would be to get out while you're still at some kind of high point. 

I've always found it interesting how most realize their peak and then let that go on and turn into an amazing low still holding on to life.  The problem is of course (fear) and I watched my mother go through this, that by hanging on to life at all costs she couldn't even remember or appreciate her good times due to the suffering at the end.


Fuck that shit.. yet that's what we do.  Take a look at the american way of dying to see for yourself.

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Icelander said:
Only in the need to use the word "God" at all. IMO just saying the word personifies it.

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Icelander said:
I've heard your opinions already.  Now lets see the science behind it.  In other words lets see some sources beyond opinion.  You've been here long enough to know this.


As to my view of unconscious it's just the things that part of our mind feels the need to hide from moment to moment awareness.

I think psychosomatic illness/symptoms. shows how this can work.

But seriously if you want to convince me lets see some links.

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