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Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific or objective efforts to explain reality. In essence, it is based on the position that reality is not mirrored in human understanding of it, but is rather constructed as the mind tries to understand its own personal reality. Postmodernism is therefore skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person. In the postmodern understanding, interpretation is everything; reality only comes into being through our interpretations of what the world means to us individually. - wiki
i would like to begin this thread with a basic insight about the nature of truth. truth can only be found within the symbolic fictions which structure our reality. if you take away the symbolic fictions which structure reality, then you take away reality itself and any chance of finding truth. therefor, i posit that an individual who makes reference to an ultimate truth or ultimate reality has failed to realize that we cannot shed the social and biological dispositions which colour our reality. it is our own particular idiosyncrasies which prevent us from finding any ultimate truth or morals (if they exist). but, we can rearrange the symbolic fictions into new formations which we may use to glean new insights from our experience.
Nihilism is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. - wiki
if we take my first proposition seriously then we cannot argue that nihilism represents an ultimate truth or that there is a alternative reality beyond our experience which is ultimately meaningless (many people believe this may be found after death). if we are to take nihilism seriously then we must position what i will refer to as the abyss (life's apparent meaninglessness) within the fabric of our subjective experience. if the abyss exists within us as a negation of life's meaning, rather than being purely meaningless, it actually animates our experience and changes our actions in the physical universe. this action created by the negation of meaning is what i refer to as the substance of the abyss.
nihilism can be considered a western system of thought born out of the decay of Christianities influence over the west. therefor, i posit that the only possible way to be a nihilist is to have a prior history of christian thought and then to negate the christian god and values. nihilism, without its cultural context found in the christian tradition, fails to fully realize the meaninglessness of life as it is expressed in the modern west. christian thought is structured in such a way that to negate god, is to be a nihilist. if you are a nihilist then your actions are at least partly animated by the abyss.
Discuss
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Post Extras:
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 79,803 Loc: underbelly
Re: The Substance of the Abyss: An Exploration of Postmodern Nihilism [Re: blingbling] #16533462 - 07/15/12 07:02 AM (9 months, 29 days ago)
-------------------- "Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
Quote: Icelander said: discuss what? You've wrapped it all up.
what i get out of it is lies are truths if you believe them long enough. better living through being poisoned by chemicals for example. fluoride strengthens teeth (don't worry about the gov report 2/5 kids already have fluoridosis just keep using it more is better).
Quote: blingbling said: Postmodernism is largely a reaction to the assumed certainty of scientific or objective efforts to explain reality. In essence, it is based on the position that reality is not mirrored in human understanding of it, but is rather constructed as the mind tries to understand its own personal reality. Postmodernism is therefore skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person. In the postmodern understanding, interpretation is everything; reality only comes into being through our interpretations of what the world means to us individually. - wiki
i would like to begin this thread with a basic insight about the nature of truth. truth can only be found within the symbolic fictions which structure our reality. if you take away the symbolic fictions which structure reality, then you take away reality itself and any chance of finding truth. therefor, i posit that an individual who makes reference to an ultimate truth or ultimate reality has failed to realize that we cannot shed the social and biological dispositions which colour our reality. it is our own particular idiosyncrasies which prevent us from finding any ultimate truth or morals (if they exist). but, we can rearrange the symbolic fictions into new formations which we may use to glean new insights from our experience.
Nihilism is the philosophical doctrine suggesting the negation of one or more putatively meaningful aspects of life. Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. - wiki
if we take my first proposition seriously then we cannot argue that nihilism represents an ultimate truth or that there is a alternative reality beyond our experience which is ultimately meaningless (many people believe this may be found after death). if we are to take nihilism seriously then we must position what i will refer to as the abyss (life's apparent meaninglessness) within the fabric of our subjective experience. if the abyss exists within us as a negation of life's meaning, rather than being purely meaningless, it actually animates our experience and changes our actions in the physical universe. this action created by the negation of meaning is what i refer to as the substance of the abyss.
nihilism can be considered a western system of thought born out of the decay of Christianities influence over the west. therefor, i posit that the only possible way to be a nihilist is to have a prior history of christian thought and then to negate the christian god and values. nihilism, without its cultural context found in the christian tradition, fails to fully realize the meaninglessness of life as it is expressed in the modern west. christian thought is structured in such a way that to negate god, is to be a nihilist. if you are a nihilist then your actions are at least partly animated by the abyss.
Discuss
nice post. when one loses the ground they were standing on and then tries to fill it in but cannot find anything to fill it in with, an "abyss" can definitely become the ground. Not pleasant from my understanding. I'm also not entirely sure why this happens. I wonder if it's not something to do with attachment. In particular from attachments that form early in life. And when the object of attachment dissolves into nothingness, the individual, being very attached to this object as a part of their identity, goes with and finds the battleground of existential crisis.
that's a good point. it raises the question why can't the abyss simply be empty? why does the abyss have substance? or in other words, why can't meaninglessness simply be meaningless?
imo to find the answer to these questions we need to examine the motivations behind human agency and ask the question, why does human agency need a certain fantasmatic element to function within the world with any semblance of equanimity? for example, most often during intercourse people are not being aroused by what is actually occurring. instead they are being aroused by their perception of the events. by applying this logic we can see that essentially everyone is perverted. just as the pervert needs to smell the feet of their partner (or whatever perverse habit they may have developed) so too does the "normal" person need a bit of something else in order to enjoy the sexual act. failure to properly fantasize results in impotence. often the partner is reduced to a masturbatory prop simply to engage in the act itself. why then does the libido, the urge to procreate, need a fantasy?
i don't really have a good answer to this question but i do believe it has something to do with our ability to think... but not just think, but also to think about thinking and to think about thinking about thinking. most people can continue thinking about thinking between 5 and 9 times, or with 5 to 9 layers of thought. perhaps we need a fantasy to order our entire being into a particular act and this had evolutionary benefits.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Quote: Icelander said: discuss what? You've wrapped it all up.
what i get out of it is lies are truths if you believe them long enough. better living through being poisoned by chemicals for example. fluoride strengthens teeth (don't worry about the gov report 2/5 kids already have fluoridosis just keep using it more is better).
That is bullshit. I bet you can't show me studies pointing to toxic levels of flouride as a result of flouridation.
-------------------- "I noticed that the feeling from mxe is better when you refrain from masturbating a day or two before, a few times when I masturbated before usage I got this WEIRD look in my eyes and it caused me to not be able to have eye contact with people, my eyes were more squinted and my face looked more puffy, but without masterbating that day or the day before I felt great, it actually felt somewhat like a different drug.
Quote: blingbling said: that's a good point. it raises the question why can't the abyss simply be empty? why does the abyss have substance? or in other words, why can't meaninglessness simply be meaningless?
My guess is a misguided view of the whole situation. First off, if a belief is without meaning, what is the need to cast it out? What is actually being cast out? What is trying to be cast out is an ascribed meaning. So IMO this is the first misunderstanding. Where the meaning we are throwing out is still seen as something solid, something real, even though we've just seen through its solidness in the first place. IMO this misunderstanding occurs due to habit. Even though there is an understanding that this meaning isn't something solid or real, we still have the mental habit of making it solid and real.
The second misunderstanding IMO comes from the idea that this mental habit shouldn't be happening. That since "I've seen through it's solidity", it shouldn't have this impact any more. And yet it is only through delusion that one could deny its impact. And this misunderstanding of "it shouldn't be influencing me anymore!" leads to movement in the direction of a revolt. This counter-movement, born from this second misunderstanding, often seems to be very self-destructive. It's very much a self-loathing - a desire to get away from one's habits and one's self. After all, it simply shouldn't be! A part of me knows better! Arghh!
If we were able to clearly see through both of these misunderstandings, the process would be a lot smoother IMO. We could expect the habit to continue but we wouldn't feel the need to try and give this continuation meaning -- it's a groove worn into the mind, there is no more meaning needed. And seeing this clearly, we wouldn't need to revolt and rally against it. For to do so is only to fight one's self - the groove is inside not outside.
what are you saying this hypothetical individual is revolting against, the abyss or some other form of meaning?
in my mind there is also an element of "making no choice is still a choice". so, the very act of negation is itself a meaningful choice which structures reality.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Post Extras:
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 79,803 Loc: underbelly
Re: The Substance of the Abyss: An Exploration of Postmodern Nihilism [Re: blingbling] #16536105 - 07/15/12 08:25 PM (9 months, 28 days ago)
-------------------- "Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
Quote: blingbling said: that's a good point. it raises the question why can't the abyss simply be empty? why does the abyss have substance? or in other words, why can't meaninglessness simply be meaningless?
My guess is a misguided view of the whole situation. First off, if a belief is without meaning, what is the need to cast it out? What is actually being cast out? What is trying to be cast out is an ascribed meaning. So IMO this is the first misunderstanding. Where the meaning we are throwing out is still seen as something solid, something real, even though we've just seen through its solidness in the first place. IMO this misunderstanding occurs due to habit. Even though there is an understanding that this meaning isn't something solid or real, we still have the mental habit of making it solid and real.
The second misunderstanding IMO comes from the idea that this mental habit shouldn't be happening. That since "I've seen through it's solidity", it shouldn't have this impact any more. And yet it is only through delusion that one could deny its impact. And this misunderstanding of "it shouldn't be influencing me anymore!" leads to movement in the direction of a revolt. This counter-movement, born from this second misunderstanding, often seems to be very self-destructive. It's very much a self-loathing - a desire to get away from one's habits and one's self. After all, it simply shouldn't be! A part of me knows better! Arghh!
If we were able to clearly see through both of these misunderstandings, the process would be a lot smoother IMO. We could expect the habit to continue but we wouldn't feel the need to try and give this continuation meaning -- it's a groove worn into the mind, there is no more meaning needed. And seeing this clearly, we wouldn't need to revolt and rally against it. For to do so is only to fight one's self - the groove is inside not outside.
This is all of course IMO and IME
This is very relevant to my own personal experience, and what I've noticed myself. Thanks for writing it up so nicely.
Quote: blingbling said: what are you saying this hypothetical individual is revolting against, the abyss or some other form of meaning?
in my mind there is also an element of "making no choice is still a choice". so, the very act of negation is itself a meaningful choice which structures reality.
Well it seems like a revolt against meaning. E.g., I can do anything because none of it has any real meaning. But then meaning arises due to habit. And this spurs a revolt against the appearance of this meaning -- No, damnit! You are meaningless! Meaningless I tell ya!
IMO it's this process of revolt which seems to be a defining characteristic of nihilism. To actively attack meaning and in it's place ascribe meaninglessness.
Quote: blingbling said: what are you saying this hypothetical individual is revolting against, the abyss or some other form of meaning?
in my mind there is also an element of "making no choice is still a choice". so, the very act of negation is itself a meaningful choice which structures reality.
Well it seems like a revolt against meaning. E.g., I can do anything because none of it has any real meaning. But then meaning arises due to habit. And this spurs a revolt against the appearance of this meaning -- No, damnit! You are meaningless! Meaningless I tell ya!
IMO it's this process of revolt which seems to be a defining characteristic of nihilism. To actively attack meaning and in it's place ascribe meaninglessness.
this is what i wanted to avoid in my assessment of nihilism. the whole "no, no its all meaningless" rhetoric that i've seen a lot of on the internet. there is definitely a kind of doubling up on the part of nihilism, one where meaning is refuted by the creation of meaning. i believe this stems from the fact that i cannot refute the meaning of a thought in my head without creating another thought, so in essence we are always playing catch up. however, i don't see how habits intrinsically create meaning. imo it is the purpose of the habit which is most meaningful.
imo to answer your question of what is being cast out, it is the negation of christian values. the nihilist pushes onto the world what they have lost, namely the christian religion. in this respect nihilism is much like satanism because it only exist in opposition to Christianity. in another sense nihilism is also somewhat like spiritualist traditions such as doaism because meaninglessness can be found in all things, all of the time. it structures subjective reality much like the dao is said to structure nature.
you brought up an interesting predicament which is that nihilism actually acts as a moralizing system. as you said "I can do anything because none of it has any real meaning" which is akin to "I can do anything because my actions are blessed by god" or as i often tell myself and others "why kill yourself if it doesn't matter?" which is akin to "don't kill yourself because your life has meaning".
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Seeing a particular meaning in an act/thing is what I mean by a habit here. I'm not sure if that clears up my view at all. I don't think habit creates meaning but rather particular meanings can be a learned response which become habits over time. The earlier the meaning is learned and the longer it is reinforced, the more habitual I think the response becomes. And primarily at the emotional level.
your description of habit is exactly why i think that nihilism cannot exist outside a negation of Christianity. even though god and by extension life's meaning are actively dismissed, the habits of Christian thought remain. it could also be possible that Christianity logically leads to nihilism for some individuals.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
cool thread guys (you are both doing my head in a bit tho)
@blingbling- a 'negation of christianity' seems too simplistic. if modern nihilism is born out of christianity there must be christian values that are retained, emphasized, distorted, 'negated' and even lost all together.
to say just a negation is not saying much about the modern psyche or it's relation to christian values imo.
what is different about the negation of christianity to the negation of any other world view?
what is it about christianity that makes modern nihilism what it is?
-------------------- if only i
had learnt to count
i might know more
about a larger amount
a hindu (opposed to a christian) who leaves behind hinduism will be left with very different presuppositions about the nature of self, reality, morals, all most anything really. perhaps they may feel that there is some non-conscious spiritual power that animates the world. this kind of non-conscious spiritual power is not implied in most christian traditions. in christianity to negate god is to be left with nothing. have you ever seen a 14th or 15th century painting of satan? he is always blue, instead of red like he is pictured today. they paint him blue because he is the furthest away from the warmth of god's love. to negate god's love is to be left in the cold. imo this is very different to hinduism and probably all other non-abrahamic religions. you can see in these paintings how christainity changes the understanding of what it is to negate god's love.
here are two great paintings of satan from some time in the dark ages.
thats quite interesting, i get where you are coming from.
(if it were 'proper' nihilism of course satan would also have to be negated).
now i am gonna post some topic related truths caked in bs, feel free to ignore:
like the plague catholicism spread over the land. 'accept jesus' and 'your soul is saved'. conversion and the soul are two important features for understanding the masses today.
jesus is gone, but what is our common ground? look to pop culture and it seems pretty clear: SEX. the cross is out, sex is in. of course western culture has no more to do with procreation than cristianity had to do with a man called jesus, rather its about what you DO for it, the norms (or fantasies, fictions) organized around it. where do you slip in to the symbolic game?
if sex has replaced the cross as common ground of identification, then the 'self' has replaced the soul as the domain to exercise modern morality...
the soul was a genius device concucted to have people believe that they owned some invisible thing that was being watched all the time. surveilance (and control) from cradle to grave (now we have ip adresses and G--gle ). it was an essence that hung around you like a bad stench, do something bad and you are bad.
we have not fully shaken this essentialist thinking today. your essence is your sexuality. oh yes, everyone is watching. it is expressed not through any one thing (or act), but by buying in to one of many templates of how to organize things. what to wear, what to think, what job, what to listen to, what to drive... all these things are organized into a vast play of relations the totality of which point to the singular organizing self behind it all YOU. it all has to be organized loosely in accordance with an established template, (lots of symbols are give or take, surfers dont have to have long hair and say 'cowabunga' (?), but pervert enough norms and your identity becomes incoherent (and thus amoral))
it's a game of organizing something 'unique' (stereotypes are vulgar) without straying so far to become incoherent.
sexual identity underpins all these games without which (or a clear excuse such as 'castration') your self is doomed. asexuals are doomed!
thats enough.
...are nihilists asexual?
-------------------- if only i
had learnt to count
i might know more
about a larger amount
when life's meaning is lost sexuality becomes the dominant ideology. community is replaced by a cult of the body. spiritually empty capitalist ideology has been mapped onto the human body, which is now made up of a series of checks and balances. in this economy of flesh you can increase your capital by buying a number of products including surgical intervention which is masqueraded as a medical procedure because it is said to increase self-esteem.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
Post Extras:
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 79,803 Loc: underbelly
Re: The Substance of the Abyss: An Exploration of Postmodern Nihilism [Re: blingbling] #16539865 - 07/16/12 04:35 PM (9 months, 27 days ago)
while I agree with much of the above, I'm wondering what you mean by "life's meaning". IMO if life really had some meaning then substitutes would never have come into being. More likely, again imo, the desire that life have meaning is what you are referring to and right where the problem arises. Becker has something to say here.
-------------------- "Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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(you are both doing my head in a bit tho)
creepy
). it was an essence that hung around you like a bad stench, do something bad and you are bad.
