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 dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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 Lets say free will doesn't exist 
#16520278 - 07/12/12 04:15 PM (10 months, 8 hours ago) |
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In this case, what can we do to change the predetermined course of our lives? Any suggestions or ideas? Or does my question cease to have any practical value to it?
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,233
Loc: Candyland
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Keep some dice handy. If you roll even then marry Debbie; if you roll odd propose to Cindy.
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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But I don't want Debbie or Cindy!!! 
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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 ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole
Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 1,363
Loc: SChemestate
Last seen: 4 days, 10 hours
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While free Will is a concept that is just a supposition of human experience.
It is still difficult for anyone to even give your idea practical value, it is, in fact, impossible to conceive.
Yet it is equally as impossible to explain "freedom" or "free" will. Or even to state there is such a will or not.
Yet it seems it must be acted upon as if these things do exist bc otherwise we would be at a total and complete loss I.e.
Where anyone who attempts to conceive your idea will inevitably be found.
1L
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hmm...
"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."
"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"
"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"
"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: ashfiken]
#16520400 - 07/12/12 04:31 PM (10 months, 8 hours ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said:
While free Will is a concept that is just a supposition of human experience.
It is still difficult for anyone to even give your idea practical value, it is, in fact, impossible to conceive.
Well if "my" idea is correct, there is nothing practical about it. I was talking about my question of finding ways to manipulate causality. If everything is predetermined and we find out how to predict everything, is the logical conclusion that we are free to decide what we will change to alter the outcome? In other words, is the altered outcome predetermined in that case? I can't seem to grasp, if there was any other alternative to us realizing how everything works and being able to change it, assuming this happened or happens in the future.
Quote:
Yet it is equally as impossible to explain "freedom" or "free" will. Or even to state there is such a will or not.
Why is it impossible?
Quote:
Yet it seems it must be acted upon as if these things do exist bc otherwise we would be at a total and complete loss I.e.
What must be acted upon?
Quote:
Where anyone who attempts to conceive your idea will inevitably be found.
1L
Could it have been any other way?
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,233
Loc: Candyland
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
But I don't want Debbie or Cindy!!!
It's just a sham marriage anyway. You can still teach boys phys ed.
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
But I don't want Debbie or Cindy!!!
It's just a sham marriage anyway. You can still teach boys men or really hot chicks phys ed.
Fixed... Or is it? 
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,797
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
In this case, what can we do to change the predetermined course of our lives? Any suggestions or ideas? Or does my question cease to have any practical value to it?
Pray real hard to jeebus.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,233
Loc: Candyland
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Icelander]
#16520548 - 07/12/12 04:53 PM (10 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
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This is your caterpillar on DMT. Any questions?
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
Nope. You just have to make other people pray too with the help of fear mongering.
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole
Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 1,363
Loc: SChemestate
Last seen: 4 days, 10 hours
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Ah, now I am beginning to see from where you are coming. Predetermination? Given the origin of predetermination and here with you setting at it's doorstep our ability to "predict everything", I find it hard to picture. It has such strong attachment, in my belief, to experience. (one would have to experience/or atleast be able to manifest in ones head almost all experiences/situations). if you were to be able to predict everything and know the predetermination of everything you must be an "empirically hardened" individual. That, to my logic, is the only way to even achieve what you are speaking of. If possible. Therefore making it quite a practical thing IMO.
While this is even harder for me to perceive bc I find it so hard to reason with myself that thjngs could ever be predetermined. But for discussion sake I will continue to elaborate my idea.
Ok, hereon given someone has the ability to do so.
Why is defining freedom impossible? Because just like happiness it is an Idea, we as rational beings have no way to ever know that what we have achieved is ever what we would call "perfect happiness" or "total freedom" it is virtually impossible to say one has met such quota and is even more difficult to express what these things, objectively, "contain" or from where they are derived by everyone. Thus, they are impossible to define all of them. They are philosophical Ideas highly discussed and debated in philosophies from the beginning of human reason. Can you tell me what freedom "is" and tell me 100% certain that it is correct for Everyone across the board? No I honk not.
What must be acted upon?
We must act as if free will does exist and take it for granted through our ability to reason making us a part of the intelligible world in addition to the sensible world in which all things of nature reside.
Could it have been? Hmmm
It could not have begun any other way , no, my friend, it could not have.
1L
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hmm...
"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."
"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"
"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"
"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: ashfiken]
#16520618 - 07/12/12 05:06 PM (10 months, 7 hours ago) |
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I thought that saying everything is predetermined is the same as saying there is no free will. If there isn't any free will, then we can define it as non- existent. Of course, we are limited by our minds in defining it. I agree. However, if our universe is preditermend to a certain outcome, it should be possible for it to be defined, although maybe or maybe not for us humans.
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole
Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 1,363
Loc: SChemestate
Last seen: 4 days, 10 hours
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Hmm... I like that thought. Even better is the way in which you convey it.
I just have a profound distaste for predetermination, bc I think if I were/am living such an existence and knew it for fact I could not prevent simply throwing up over myself at the wake of each day, I may then consider suicide. Just to "change" the predetermination in he only way I felt possible. But then maybe I would have been predetermined to do that?!
And no, assuming everything to be predetermined or if everything was, in fact, it would make free will completely null and good and hidden/unknown/unused by us. Agreed.
As for defining such things
Under the cloud of predetermination. I of course know not and can not tell you one thing of it.
1L
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hmm...
"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."
"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"
"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"
"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,797
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
One must also clench the anal sphincter. Jeebus demands it.
Did you know that jeebus never took a shit. True story.
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: ashfiken]
#16520720 - 07/12/12 05:26 PM (10 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
ashfiken said:
And no, assuming everything to be predetermined or if everything was, in fact, it would make free will completely null and good and hidden/unknown/unused by us. Agreed.
Yes, unless it was predetermined for us to scientifically prove that life is predetermined. I think physics is sort of doing that, but is limited to what we know. Most of it is still a theory, but gravity seems to be predetermined as a fact.
Or take occultism for example. Its an attempt to increase the probability of something happening. At least that is what some say. Its still a probability, not a 100% free choice to get what you want. And even if it does change the course of events, was it not meant to have happened that way, just as that person not attempting magick was meant to happen, because that is what happened (hypothetically speaking of course).
--------------------
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Icelander]
#16520727 - 07/12/12 05:28 PM (10 months, 7 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
One must also clench the anal sphincter. Jeebus demands it.
Did you know that jeebus never took a shit. True story.
I'm never going to be able to love jeebus!
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,148
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 day, 13 hours
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
In this case, what can we do to change the predetermined course of our lives? Any suggestions or ideas? Or does my question cease to have any practical value to it?
No practical value.
Maybe you'll like the predetermined course of your life if you just gave it some time.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,797
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
One must also clench the anal sphincter. Jeebus demands it.
Did you know that jeebus never took a shit. True story.
I'm never going to be able to love jeebus!
Cause he's full of shit?
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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ashfiken
TotalCrazyasshole
Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 1,363
Loc: SChemestate
Last seen: 4 days, 10 hours
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
ashfiken said:
And no, assuming everything to be predetermined or if everything was, in fact, it would make free will completely null and good and hidden/unknown/unused by us. Agreed.
Yes, unless it was predetermined for us to scientifically prove that life is predetermined. I think physics is sort of doing that, but is limited to what we know. Most of it is still a theory, but gravity seems to be predetermined as a fact.
Or take occultism for example. Its an attempt to increase the probability of something happening. At least that is what some say. Its still a probability, not a 100% free choice to get what you want. And even if it does change the course of events, was it not meant to have happened that way, just as that person not attempting magick was meant to happen, because that is what happened (hypothetically speaking of course).
I thought physics was more like scientifically breaking down the laws of nature. Gravity, as such, right? Not heading towards showing predetermination. But,alas, I know shit about physics except what is in my head relative to physical action. No education on such a subject that's for sure.
Like I said ehhh predetermination does not do it for me. I hate structure and that would be the ultimate structure.
ahhhh occultism!
1L
--------------------
hmm...
"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."
"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"
"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"
"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"
|
dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,309
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Icelander]
#16520901 - 07/12/12 05:59 PM (10 months, 6 hours ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you have to squinch your eyes really tightly closed to pray harder?
One must also clench the anal sphincter. Jeebus demands it.
Did you know that jeebus never took a shit. True story.
I'm never going to be able to love jeebus!
Cause he's full of shit?
No. 
I pity the fool! 
--------------------
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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