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Offlinehoodbran
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16465294 - 07/01/12 03:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The way I see mushroom use is like any other night away from home getting fcuked up at an infected mushroom gig, but I do have the privilege of having older children who aren't always at home and my partner is cool with me being me.  When I go out, whatever occurs stays there but I get to keep the memories and experience of it all.  I wont change to suit someone else, Im still successful in work and life in general but I dont use mushrooms as often as I did when I immersed myself in to them some years ago. Im just a little more careful these days because I have a lot to lose.  So, If the universe has conspired to bring you mushrooms and marriage at the same time, then you gotta choose one.  Or wait a while, perhaps find some way to deal with the conflicting feelings between social morality and your given human right to express your full experience... Only you can answer this question because at the end of the day, you will always find arguments for and against.  The real trouble is, both sides have your best interests at heart.


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Not all drugs are good, Some are great.





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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16468407 - 07/02/12 01:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

From my culture's legal perspective, I am a criminal. But that is only because a certain species of mushroom that grows wild in bovine dung, in the semi-tropical state I inhabit, has been cultivated and consumed. The laws are supposedly for the protection of citizens, but this is a lie and the law that supports it is an unjust law, just as were the laws that supported slavery, or Jim Crow in this country.  Laws about mushrooms are draconian and downright stupid. Psychedelics have helped me become more intelligent, more empathetic, more compassionate, and to a certain extent, wise. I have used them respectfully and judiciously.

I am anything but a criminal in this life. I am a mental health professional with an impeccable history of ethical practice - mostly with adolescents. I have saved wild animals from their deaths at risk to my own well-being, be they raccoon, pelican, possum, chipmunk, rat or mouse. I give to charities of my choice. I do not lie, steal, cheat on my taxes, or on my Lady, speed through school zones or drive under the influence. Yet, the law would consider me to be a criminal. This needs to change. I understand that in the state of Georgia, anal sex is still illegal, even in marriage. Laws are man-made - like the H-bomb - and therefore, everything man-made is not necessarily good.

I turned my Lady on to mushrooms shortly after we met some 16 years ago. That is a significant factor in what endeared me to her - a life-changing experience that enabled her to develop latent aspects of her personality, and she is a very bright person to begin with - accepted into Princeton, U. of Pennsylvania, and Cornell at age 16. She graduated from the latter, and then took an MBA at U. of Maryland (where I earned a PhD). We are not your average married couple insofar as we take mushrooms on rare occasions in a sacramental way. She has a grown daughter, but if we had impressionable children around, we would not trip in their presence. It would be a Mystery in the spiritual sense of the word, like Holy Matrimony and sexual intercourse used to be before post-modernity became secular, and those practices lost their ability to serve as vehicles of Higher (and therefore Holier) states of consciousness. Mushrooms, like wine, can be used in completely profane, banal ways, or they can be used in the capacity of a sacrament. As I learned from BE HERE NOW over three decades ago, if one wants to live a spiritual life, "All Your Acts Will Be Consecrated."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16470921 - 07/02/12 05:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

10thousand said:
I'd like to know what some of you think about using mushrooms on a spiritual level in the context of marriage and family (while no longer a bachelor, in other words), particularly from those of you who are married and have children, but also what you think from a social standpoint, where a culture does not regard mushroom use as either acceptable or responsible behavior.




Well, I don't have kids yet but when I will I'll just make sure I'll do drugs when they're not around. I'd make sure I gave them all they needed to become reponsible, emotionally stable and rational, and when they're going to be old enough I would share with them my views on using drugs and I would let them make their own decisions regarding using them and hopefully at one point I would trip with them or take E together. I would really want them to experience these wonderul experiences but I wouldn't push them in any direction.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #16479751 - 07/04/12 12:28 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ah... thank you people for bringing this thread back to its original purpose when I thought it was lost forever--it got a little sideways. I appreciate your comments, for the personal information, especially your sincere, honest replies.

I wholly agree with you MushroomTrip, that children should be introduced to magic mushrooms (without pushing) at a time in their lives they have become rather independent, when their ability to think critically is developed and they have a good sense of identity. I have four children (which brings me very close to nature, if you will), so I have given this tremendous thought. And my conclusion about the matter falls in line with what Mark was saying.

MarkostheGnostic, the idea of guarding children from knowing the sexual intimacy of their parents and taking the same approach with using mushrooms, if I understood you correctly, and keeping it a mysterious thing to them, even a spiritual mystery, is a very good one. Is it not, like the sexual act, far more than they are able to comprehend? Also, all the information you gave about your life, and the life of your "Lady" as you say, was one thing precisely that I was looking for in this thread, that is, a balanced, responsible, functioning human being that is actually a part of the world around them (not homesteading, which is noble in its own right), actually moving forward and interacting on many levels with society.

To put myself out there and be personal, I am just about to turn 30, have been married 10 years, and after a great deal of emotional pain in our marriage, due almost entirely to my own inability to create a stable environment for my wife in many respects, which, and I don't mean to excuse myself by any means, has simply been the outflow of my immaturity, and the steps I have taken have just been me trying to grow and find out for myself what the world and what life really is. In so many ways my journey has taken a toll on her. I was raised in a legalistic environment, by parents who were largely emotionally distant (I think I am very much like an orphan), who were rather unstable with their own sense of identity (so much so that at 12 years of age I cried helplessly out of fear when my parents suddenly went out and put tattoos on their body, haha) but who also gave many things to me, and a lot of freedoms. Yet all this time I had no Guide or Teacher or Hero, and thus, my life has been pretty wreckless, and I have failed to commit myself to responsibilities, values, and virtues. Then, for the first time in my life, I got high on mushrooms with more than 2 ounces of Cubensis over a period of two months, and I discovered an unknown God who was Father to me. I found who I was for the fist time. My life flipped around. But because I had married a Christian girl, and we were surrounded by Christians, and my family is made up of Christians (it doesn't have to be this for people to reject mushrooms), and we had 2 children at the time, I wasn't really free to allow mushrooms to integrate in anyway into my life, which has led me to break promises, and to waver inside of my own soul whether to eat mushrooms ever again or not, and to make choices that would incredibly confuse people around me. And now my wife asks that I never do it again, because she believes it is not right or good, but is dark and demonic. That is where I am coming from. I suppose many people would say hey, just let go of mushrooms and commit yourself to your marriage. But understand, if it wasn't for mushrooms, I would not have a marriage, for I would have broken myself from all "religion" had I not found a God who was truly holy to ME, not to mention a relationship with God. In a way, sure, this is all screwed up, but this is who I am, and this is my journey, and I am thankful actually, as much as it sucks, for I know how unique this experience is shaping me to be, as I go about trying to be honest with all things, and to learn what I myself will someday know.

So Hoodbran, I appreciate your post because of the challenge. I know I am the only one who can really know and decide what I must do, and how I must see things. I hope it comes around for me very soon.


Edited by 10thousand (07/04/12 01:23 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16480552 - 07/04/12 03:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't mind putting myself out there for those like yourselves whom I sympathize with and understand. Coincidentally, I had the thought this morning, that I would not have remained in my current relationship had she NOT come to value psychedelics as I do. My old tripping buddy from my late teens and early 20s married an older woman (by 8 years). Both were Catholics, but she was from a conservative Italian family. She amplified my friend's  'Mother Complex,' including guilt-laying about religion and the law. When his mother had told him that BE HERE NOW was "all gibberish," he couldn't explain its value to her well enough so as not to doubt himself. Mother Complex undermining his Individuation. They were all authoritarian structures - maternal superego authority, church authority, legal authority, wifely/familial  - all external, I might add, to his inner experience. I consider his pussy-whipped in the extreme, especially since my evil ex-wife actually liked his wife, and who related a technique for how she manipulates my old friend (leaving numerous hints, then when he gets the message, she flatters his ego about HIS great idea).

Another childhood friend married another Greek Orthodox, who has never even smoked cannabis, and wouldn't because of religion, ostensibly, but unlike the manipulative wife of the other guy, this one is very insecure and neurotic. This friend says it's his choice not to trip, and has become very religious, but again, he turned out to have a sexual issue that got him jailed, and after he got out and lost his livelihood, he became even more religious - an obvious over-compensation for his unnatural desires. He's been living a secret life, so naturally, psychedelic might occasion a "spiritual emergency" for him. He used to take lots of acid, but never past his first time (with me) did he ever again surrender to the trip. He used them to fight against and maintain his ego-structure, so what would be the point.

I don't like being thought of as a criminal. Sitting here in my electric Uncle Sam Grateful Dead t-shirt and stars-n-stripes suspenders, I am a good American citizen, and a good man. I Know what psychedelics are for me - they are a sacrament which has opened me to the Truth a whole lot more convincingly than Catholic Mass, or 2 years in a Christian seminary did. I recognize Christ, or better, "being in Christ," from a Gnostic position, which surpasses blind faith. It is experienced. The Spanish conquering conquistadors carried that same message to the MesoAmericans, writing about demonic visions and such. Sure, the demonic darkness is necessary to the counterpart of celestial light. One cannot have Christ without Satan, the whole duality is necessary. Most so-called Christians are not Holy because they are not Whole (same root word). They have not accepted and integrated their Shadow, but deny and project it onto others. This is what Erich Neumann wrote about in Depth Psychology and a New Ethic. Your wife is a victim of this denial that in the Christian (as in God) 'there is no darkness and only light.' This is a mistake, especially, given that Isaiah 45:7 states: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." The question is whether one will trust one's own Gnosis, or whether one will believe the Augustinian doctrine of 'Original Sin.' This was not how the Jews understood the Genesis myth, but Augustine made adherence to the Church and its sacraments as the ONLY means to the grace of Christ. If you didn't make the Church and its sacrament absolutely necessary, you'd been damned. Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus  No salvation outside the church. Bullshit.

I cannot advise you to be sneaky or dishonest, but men still need to go 'walk about,' in every culture. Hunting, fishing, camping or tripping - pick your favorite. The latter two go well together. It's about Initiation which is necessary for men. Women have pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood since Neolithic times as female Mysteries. Men have their type. This is the order of its gravitas. "Licking wafers paper-thin..." as Grace Slick put it, is just...not...gonna...cut it, as I'm sure you'll agree. Did you deny your wife her Mysteries? No. This is on the same order of depth and importance, and if she refuses to understand Mystery Religion, or will not entertain how the Christian Mysteries of the eucharist are actually a diluted form of the Mithraic Mysteries, then you will have to take another tach. Most wives will concede a camping trip - as long as it's not in Las Vegas :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16487813 - 07/06/12 01:06 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It is a tough one, relationships, authorities, when they conflict with one's personal interest. I am sorry for your friends. I do not think I have had it that bad. In one aspect, I appreciate my wife's aversion to mushrooms, and holding me back from exploring it freely, because one would be tempted, I think, to become to engrossed in the thing than is beneficial, proper, and balanced. Some dudes are all about getting high, and making those things an integral part of who they are. But I feel, more along the lines of how I believe you must feel, is that it almost takes on a secretive quality. It's not something to be spoken out flippantly or blatantly, but is rather one of the last things one might project in their conversations with others. Of course, it depends on the conversation and with whom you're having it, but my point is, is how I am thankful for my wife's hesitations about it, for I think they have held me back from going too far and being absorbed by them, and ultimately lost.

I find it to be a great thing that you treat the object as a sacrament. I do not know a lot about sacraments--I understand they are objects, part of some ritual or activity that opens one up to the experience of the grace of God. It doesn't really matter to me, because that is not how I see it (or not how I would say it), but I appreciate your take of it simply because it views these things as sacred things, which is much more advanced than the naive and silly dabbling of adolescents trying to get high, by mushrooms or anything else. When I was younger, I wanted to get high for many reasons, but over the years, I have discovered that mushrooms have a connection to life nothing else has. They have become unique to me, and through them everything takes on a divine and sacred quality I have never experienced apart from them in such overwhelming measure.

Again, my mind wrestles, "are they right or are they wrong?" I have so many reasons why they are right, but what I cannot deduce is why socially people stand so far from them. I tend to think, that for reasons stated above, deep and profound revelations do not sit well with a shallow and comic society. Funny though, because I think of the shroomery community as made up mostly of this very society, and perhaps it is because they aren't just getting high on mushrooms, they're smoking lots of dope and fucking their mind-body systems with unnatural drugs of all kinds. Ironically, the one community that should rest itself on the outstanding uniqueness of mushrooms is fucked up on all sorts of drugs. I'm not pointing the finger or upset--I'm simply making the observation and laughing at the irony.

Personally I prefer to stay as far away from all religion as possible, and keep myself near one, which excludes itself from religious robes, tin plates and factory made crackers. Religion is a devotion to service, and this service may take on any natural activity of life--as exemplified by Brother Lawrence, who cooked in the kitchen--while the one doing the service, if asked, never says, "aren't I good?" but always answers, "not I, but Christ lives in me," which is not some religious jargon or self-righteous talk acting out humility, but the genuine disposition of a spirit that abides in Christ.

I don't know what to make of it all.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16488070 - 07/06/12 02:11 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I just read your response to my wife, and she said, "Well, he is defining religion rather narrowly." I would say in response to her, that ritual and symbolism have abilities that need to be experienced to be understood. They are 'magickal' in effect, inasmuch as they confound the rational mind. I routinely confound the rational mind, the so called "critical faculty," in order to induce the subconscious to take the forefront  and the conscious mind to take a back seat, during hypnotic inductions. This is NOT to equate religion with hypnosis, but I am intending to illustrate that the rational mind and the sense data which it interprets, is a mental strata that requires rupturing in order for more essential, more primary levels of awareness to arise. This 'matrix' of which our socio-cultural habitual construction of everyday reality must yield f any truly 'religious' experience is to occur. And only a transpersonal, transcendental experience has the ability to realign one's central modus operandi for simply Being. Religion, from the Latin 'religare,' means 'to bind,' just as the word Yoga in Sanskrit means 'to yoke' - one's finite awareness to Infinite awareness. The infantile ego dies, and the Self emerges as the center of one's life. In the West, the central symbol of this Self, is Christ. Anything short of such an Initiation is merely emotional or intellectual religion, and religion is the best protection against religious experience - Gnosis.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16491897 - 07/06/12 09:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting. I understand you to be saying that symbols are the vehicles, as it were, through which infinite knowledge (i.e. the knowledge of God, the whole, and every part) is passed and delivered to us, and that, when this connection is made, we are wholly bound to it, and it to us, and the means by which this connection or union is made, is through the breaking down (death) of those inadequacies which which exist in the fabric of our identity (which sometimes requires the tearing down of the whole). Your wife is right, you could say I gave a narrow definition of religion. Really, it was a partial explanation, strictly defined by the DEVOTION that arises and flows out from a heart that has married some body of knowledge which has been hidden and concentrated within its particular set of trusted symbols. I wonder what you would say to explain how symbols confound the rational mind. Is it because so much is there, the intellect is forced to take a backseat and allow intuition to do its work?

And yet, I am personally inclined to withdraw from too much ritual or symbolism. Perhaps I shouldn't say so, but should say I am very sensitive to religious imagery I see people strongly identifying themselves with when I do not see such clearly portrayed in the NT. I understand many of the symbols Catholicism uses and how they are derived from Scripture, and they are deep and profound indeed. But I do not agree with them. It seems something goes awry when a man strings himself with too much of that which is not his own. In a way, I think every man is free to gather from the richness of his own experiences a special and unique blend of symbols to which he identifies himself, which becomes his religion, but also that which sets him apart, shapes his soul, and shows but another fragment of the whole of God's glory. In other words, God is giving me a story of my own, and special insight into his infinite majesty. The complex symbolic system of Catholicism seems to deprive men of this, busying them with endless sets of rituals and visual imagery of its own that did not originate with the man himself. How far a man may go in making his own rituals and symbols before it deprives him of raw experience I'm not sure. It seems people are quick to borrow symbols so that soon, they are not individuals, but witches, warlocks, atheists, buddhists, etc., and they attach themselves to symbols that steal and deprive God of his majesty, so that they are no longer participating in true religion. Since mushrooms have played such a critical role in my life, do I put drawings of mushrooms on my wall? No. Such a symbol is so strong, I would detract many many people from having an accurate understanding of me, and of the one I represent and love. How intensely should one project their own symbols, which God has used to shape them, toward others? If symbols are carriers and props for infinite knowledge, then we tell our stories, and we bring forth our treasures, to share with others the riches and glory of the knowledge of God. And people will see we are not religiously robed or engrossed in highly developed dogmas or systematic theology, but that we love Jesus.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16494915 - 07/07/12 02:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Many people have created artistic representations of their faith. Jews and Muslims have profound issues with this. I can see their points. But I can also see the creativity that has been awakened and which needs to manifest itself to others. This is God creating the universe, and populating it with other sentient beings so that they may perceive the Deity's own ideas. We are this in Microcosm. The crucifixion is one of many forms of 'dismemberment,' from the mythic Osiris, Ixion on the wheel, Wotan from the World Tree, and Prometheus on the rock, to the equally mythic Jesus on a cross, or tree. Muslims insist that a Prophet of God would never suffer a shameful death, and so Isa/Iesous/Y'shua was never "hung upon a tree."

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

Acts 10:39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree,

Acts 13:29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Deuteronomy 21:22-23
22 If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, 23 you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Symbols have been chosen for us! Quite as you see. The green 'gem' is pre-Christian. It is 'To the God Bacchus' (as we would translate it). It is a pre-Christian symbol of dismemberment (of the ego!). Bacchus, or earlier, Dionysus was dismembered by the Bacchantes - female devotees of Dionysus who were enchanted to see him as a deer, and tore him apart alive to consume the god. The broken eucharist - like Jesus' body - broken for us that we may incorporate his corpse as a sacrament did not originate with Christians. The symbol was appropriated from earlier sources, and the New Testament accounts were written accordingly, NOT HISTORICALLY! So, IMO it is intellectually fair to perform a Phenomenological Reduction - to discover the 'invariant features' of all religious mythic themes, particularly the Death of the ego, the Ascension of the Divine Self, and then, in this order, the Resurrection of a person IN WHOM the Divine Self has arisen like the Sun in one's Heart. Now, even the ancients, like Celsus, understood these meanings and pointed out the non-originality of the themes, to which the great early Church Father Origen (who wrote on transmigration of the soul) had to write Contra Celsus to repudiate his claims. But Celsus WAS correct, and the Christian mythos is NOT original in its essence, only in its existential story. When I was young and had not yet explored far enough, I adopted the attitude that with the NT, the mythic level of Reality, had manifested historically in history. I also rationalized that being in the USA, I wasn't surrounded by Hindu and Buddhist temples, but by synagogues (of which I was already familiar, but could not discern their value), and a plethora of Christian churches. So, rationalization and pragmatism, and a vestigial adolescent need to 'belong,' were major contributing factors. Fulfillment is not to be found amidst social groups or their collective group-mind, which varies greatly from denomination to denomination.

The Christian mythos is just as important as the earlier myths, but for anyone to 'incorporate' the Truth, they must first jettison all of their early childhood psychodynamic baggage that speaks of being guilty before God from birth, from the shame of having offended sweet Jesus for your venial sins, and from fear of Hell due to your mortal sins. If an intelligent person can pull this stuff up by the roots, and then re-learn the deeper, truer meanings of the whole Passion Play which is depicted as a historical event, then such a person will be open to Gnosis - open to the possibility of experience Ascension and Resurrection as the primitive Christians, Gnostics, and Egyptian Initiates understood the meanings, NOT the ignorant literalizers. Fundamentalism is a post-modern heresy. In these realms, the ancients KNEW far better than moderns or post-moderns. I think that C.G. Jung and Joseph Campbell would support me in this.

So, if you read J.S. Spong's Liberating the Gospel, you'll see how, when, and why the NT was written the way it was using Jewish elements. If you read  D.M. Murdock's Christ in Egypt, you'll see, heavily documented from the Coffin texts and earlier Pyramid texts, just how derivative the Christian miracle claims are from Osiris - Auzar in Egyptian. Much of the resurrection theme in the NT is derivation of Auzar - in the Hebrew, L' Azar - "When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come forth.'"  - John 11:43 (the Egyptian author known as John). Indeed, the proper name of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, with the mummy-wrapped Osirian figure (like Lazarus), is The Book of Coming Forth by Day!

The point is that other people, long ago created and chose for YOU what banner or symbol would represent your faith. What about those Christian Basilicas and frescoes that depict Amanita muscaria as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Those people attempted similar syntheses. On my votary table, I have 3 female figures - a Black Greek Isis, Mary the Virgin and Mary the Magdalene next to a crucifix. In their center is a ceramic mushroom. The dying god at their left, the 'flesh of the god' in their midst, from which Ascension and Resurrection occur. You are no longer forbidden under pain of excommunication and death from evolving the use of these symbols. My Lady calls these, and winged Sophia, and winged Michael, my "dollies." She is of a non-representational mind-set. Not forbidden as the People of the Book, but rather, Taoist in nature. Many Zen Buddhists set up a large rock in place of a Buddha statue to effect the same kind of mentality - Presence without form.

I hope this was helpful, I got very enthusiastic about my response because I see you struggling with heavily introjected values. Rather than a Yang approach of direct confrontation, permit me to suggest a Yin approach like Aikido, which redirects the energies in the direction you see before you.

Peace,
MtG

 

 


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/15/12 03:07 AM)


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16496551 - 07/07/12 09:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

More and more I am being drawn to myths. For the first time a month ago I read Joseph Campbell's "Hero With a Thousand Faces" and thoroughly intend to read more of his work. I have heard the argument that the NT, pariticularly the gospels and the story of Jesus Christ is not historical, but Jewish mythology, and the evidence they point to has always been the similarities it has with other myths prevalent in the world before Christ. Campbell himself draws some of these parallells in his book. And although I have yet to read a book just about this subject, it can be observed that these myths are largely taken from the nature of creation (if not entirely, based on one's definition of nature). For example, during Winter Solstice, the course of the sun stops, and for three days it stands still, as it were, before reversing its direction. This doesn't cause me to reason that the gospel writers took this astronimical phenomenon and incorporated it into their "Savior's" being in the heart of the earth for three days, but that the divine myth is incorporated in nature along with history. "The Witness Of The Stars" argues that the constellations, such as even the Cross, which had been dilluted over time by pagan cultures, originally told the story of the Coming One through these mythic signs and symbols in the heavens.

If the gospel accounts are not literal, and the Word did not become flesh, then what does man do with his sins? Or if the Old Testament's teachings about sin, covering, and sacrifice are not given by Yahweh, but the whole temple and priesthood and ark were simply fabricated by the imaginations of the Israelites and were no derivation from "the only true and living God". If we take the invariant features of all religions, still we will be left with a religious revelation that does not put its feet upon the ground, that is, we will possess a religion from the starry heavens, but none which has deigned to enter history. When, then, will these great gods appear? When will the archetypes come forth and present themselves? My father beat my body with his hand when I did wrong as a boy, but also sat me upon his lap to kiss me when all was well. Has not the Author set a time for which he himself will come and disclose himself to the eyes of his sons, when he can be seen, touched, and handled (1 John 1)? "and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth his son, come of a woman, come under law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons" (Galatians 4:4,5). The spiritual realities of the Monomyth find their realization in the substance of the historical account of Jesus, and there we find the historical moment the light of the knowledge of the glory of God was manifested and explained. Unless at some point in life the infinite and invisible condescends into those lowly symbols by which we know the world, how, otherwise, will we understand and transcend them to become one?

I intend to look up those books you recommend, and I appreciate not only your insights, but your way with words. Also, you said

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Rather than a Yang approach of direct confrontation, permit me to suggest a Yin approach like Aikido, which redirects the energies in the direction you see before you.




and I am very curious what you mean by this.


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16496866 - 07/07/12 10:55 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I do not understand your desire to have God in a palpable, touchable manner. Moses was said to have been placed in a cleft of rock so that only the "hind portion" of Deity would pass over him, because "no man can see the face of God and live." This is midrash, metaphor. Semele (mother of Dionysus) insisted that Zeus (Deus, God) honor his promise for anything she could ask for, and so she asked to see the true form of Zeus. He pleaded with her not to, but she insisted, so he revealed his true nature, and she was incinerated by the Light. Zeus sowed the infant Dionysus into his thigh until he was ready to be born. Really? Really to both of these examples.

Jesus as 'God clothed in flesh," is a strictly Johannine theology, not Synoptic wherein Jesus is 'a man anointed by God.' John was an Egyptian, and this theology derives both from ancient Egypt as well as from pure Hellenism, wherein God and a mortal woman create a demigod, just like Dionysus, or Hercules (Heracles), or Pan ['All']. His Prologue, Pro Logos, was taken from the copious works of Philo of Alexandria (Egypt), the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher who wrote a lot about the Logos, which is translated in English as "word," and was later capitalized to suggest that there were 2 persons in God. The trinitarian notion didn't occur until the 3rd century following Tertullian's first use of the term "trinity." (Tertullian eventually joined the Montanist Christians as was declared a heretic, but Augustine wrote twin volumes about the Holy Trinity - all of which is purely Augustine's mind). He had been a Neoplatonist (probably adapted the Plotinian trinity), as well as a Manichean.

We can also thank Augustine for his notion of Original Sin, which apparently still has you by the short hairs. The much healthier Jewish idea of good and evil attributes a Yetzer Tov, and a Yetzer Hara - good and evil inclinations in all people. We did not inherit actual sin from mythical parents. [Give me a fucking break!] Temple sacrifice in Judaism ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the 2nd temple. Thereafter, rabbinic Judaism accompanied the diaspora of Jews all over the globe. There was no single Temple any more (just the Wailing Wall is left today).

As to the last comment, you can find these archetypal death, ascension, resurrection, rebirth, judgement, reward/punishment themes in all religious forms. Yes, there is relative, not absolute authority in any world religions, but these archetypes evolve from millennia of experiences of Initiates, from Egypt to Eleusis, to MesoAmerica to Siberia to Tibet. You take these themes and arrange them in your own experience, not as fixed intellectual ideas that religious doctrines and dogmas serve up to us - never to be questioned or tampered with. THAT is what I mean by a Yin approach. Take them as they come, but move them to the place in your psyche where they do the most good in your personal development in Christ [consciousness]. God has conceptions wherein there are personal attributes, or no attributes in any sophisticated theology, but God as God-Knows-God is incomprehensible. It is wanting to be the Creator of the universe in order to Know THAT aspect of the Reality we so casually call God. There is the Unmanifest Godhead beyond any thought, feeling, or intuition, and there is God - the Logos, which can be encountered during mystical unions, and is perhaps thought of as being neither personal or impersonal, but transpersonal - certainly not less than personal, but a category that outstrips this conception.

By all means familiarize yourself with those books by Spong and by Murdock - two significant threads in the fabric of Christianity.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16499799 - 07/08/12 04:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The teaching of "God enfleshed" is not ONLY Johannine as you seem to say (Egyptian or not--I've never heard this), but Pauline, who could not have been more Jewish, and is responsible for half of the NT, along with the initial spread of "faith in Jesus" as he put it (Romans 3:26) to the nations. Paul believed in a literal Christ, in whom the church had died, was raised, ascended, and seated in the heavens. According to Paul, his gospel which he preached, was simply "Christ died for our sins, was buried, and was raised on the third day, and then appeared..." This was "according to the Scriptures," a "matter of first importance," "by this gospel you are saved" (1 Cor. 15). Your many references to ancient mythology and symbolism suggest you know a great deal on the subject, but I think Paul would not support your conclusions. A plain reading of Paul's letters (which is how they were intended to be read, not spiritualized, decoded, or what not, but read aloud to the churches) speak otherwise. According to Paul, "through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin--and death spread to all men, for all have sinned."

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I recognize Christ, or better, "being in Christ," from a Gnostic position, which surpasses blind faith. It is experienced.




I do not see why it is difficult for you to understand a desire to see God when you yourself desire not to believe without basis, but to taste Christ directly. The two are not so different in my opinion.

Is it a coincidence that Alexander the Great conquered so much of the world and spread a common language (that being Greek) among so many cultures just in time for the heralding of the evangel? That is, if God is not only God of Israel, but of the nations as well; if God thoroughly intends to save the world, and not Israel only. Is it a coincidence that these ancient myths you reference, which began in Mesopotamia, Egypt, Assyria, etc., and developed over thousands of years, building up and culminating in Greek and Roman Mythology (much of which, as I understand it, was drawn from Egyptian mythology), with all its allusions to the artchetypes, was the time in which a jealous God came?--as if setting the stage for something, as though something more awake than dreams was about to dawn. Suddenly and dramatically, the meaning of myths changed, these ancient myths were hushed, and a new story ran through the earth. It is as if these great, deluded myths drawn from the Story placed in the skies about the Coming One were preparing the nations for the true Light that shines, and those men and women of old would hear of this Jesus who died, who came alive, and who appeared to the Twelve and many, the resemblances of Osiris, Hercules, Horus, and others would whisper in their minds, "this is the true Osiris, believe in Him."


Edited by 10thousand (07/08/12 07:21 PM)


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16500403 - 07/08/12 09:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Paul spoke only of a spiritual resurrection, not of a 'resusitation' of a physical body. There is no historical concern with Paul, only with the Markan source, and the 'Q' [Quelle] before Mark. The Synoptics [same view]  were presented to the illiterate multitudes and educated alike. The multitudes, no doubt lived in a Concrete Operational level of cognitive development (by modern terminology), at best. They took stories concretely, and literally. The rabbis and sages already had exegetical thinking [PRDS], which allowed them to question on what level a scriptural statement was applicable: literal, allegorical, midrashic, or mystical.

There is NOTHING Jewish about incarnational concepts. This was, and is, anathema to Jews and Muslims. The Hellenistic, incarnational theology of John, has, interestingly enough, totally colored all the gospels in the minds of average Christians. There are real psychological reasons for this. John's gospel is the most mystical, least history-oriented, and most popular for its kind of exalted spirituality. In fact it, and Revelations, almost didn't make it into the canon. With time, the Ebionite Jews, the followers of Arius, and other theologies which upheld the humanity but not the divinity of Christ, became heretical. Pauline writings are among the earliest accepted Christian writings, but, Saul/Paul, in his endeavor to "become all things to all men," ostensibly adopted and adapted the ideas of his world. He declared knowledge of the "Unknown God," among the Athenians in Acts 17:23. In Acts 17:28, he quoted the mythic poet Epimenides with his idea of Christ (as Logos), in which "we live and move, and have our being." Paul was not only chameleon-like, he seems  to have multiple personalities, unless the 3 Deutero-Pauline Epistles, and 3 Pastoral Epistles  (Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, and Titus) were written by other people (more likely). You can't spout the egalitarian nature of men and women, free and slave, Greek and Jew in one place, and then have women not talk, teach, or preach in another. So even in using Paul's name, we have to be specific where, with whom, under what circumstances. Clearly, he was dead wrong about the End Times, two millennia ago. Paul's letters were not intended to become holy scriptures, they were letters of encouragement to early churches.

Read Spong. I've met with him on 3 occasions and had opportunity to talk to him about things like conversations he's had with Ken Wilber. The book I cited is one of a dozen I've read, but THAT one is the one I had him autograph.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #16511291 - 07/10/12 09:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

MtG, thank you for the discussion. It has been good, informative, and respectful up to this point. I appreciate hearing your perspective--it is challenging--one that I have never seen or heard presented before. I have looked into Spong, only so much as to get a big picture. His ideas are intriguing, and I still intend to look further. But to continue our discussion, I would like to hear your explanation of WHO and WHAT God is (or what God is LIKE, to say the least) from your own perspective, if you would indulge me so. For my understanding of God and of the Bible flow reasonably together. In that statement, of course, there's a catch 22. My understanding of the Bible has determined my understanding of God. But I consider myself a creative theologian, if you will. The Bible does not explain everything--many things are said without explanation. I am always testing my foundation, and rethinking the whole structure. From my position, everything about the NT taken literally, generally speaking, makes sense based off who God is, especially in relation to creation, to mankind, and to angels. I hope I can get into more detail, but I would like to hear your idea of God. You take the Bible (or the NT) not as history as I do, but as myth. What then is the literal origin story of the world, who is the Author literally, what, generally speaking, is the Author literally doing (in history), and who or what is man's life in the context of these things?


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Offline10thousand

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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16522708 - 07/13/12 12:02 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

In an interview Spong related the Christian concept of the crucifixion of Christ as "divine child abuse," and while I have heard this before, I was surprised to hear such from the likes of Spong, since it has usually come from the mouths of atheists. Perhaps he is not far from one, though, for it sounds his idea of God is vague and impersonal. Although I am interested in his perspective (it is characteristic of my personality to enjoy reading the works of those whose ideas I disagree with, for I find the challenge inspiring), his understanding of the Christian concept of the crucifixion is a great flaw in his thinking that cannot be underscored enough.

The idea the Bible portrays is simply that God, who is GOD, may ask anything from anyone, for the Potter has full rights over the clay. Here we see a great revealing of the character of God--he desires not a little, nor a lot, but ALL, as illustrated by the old woman Jesus praised who gave but a coin, which was all she had, and the young rich ruler whom the Lord invited to follow him after selling all he had--God asked the most precious possession of his Son--his LIFE. And his son gave it, not out fear for an angry father, but in love, to uphold the dignity and majesty of the Father he so honored. In fact, Jesus spoke the words, "no man takes my life from me--I lay it down," and this also, "I have the power to lay my life down, and I have the power to raise it back up." Child abuse is an idea that springs from the actions of a parent that hurts an unwilling, powerless infant, toddler, or child. Christ was a man, fully grown, and could have called a thousand legions of angels to his aid. Yet he obeyed his Father, and did his Father's will--he endured the cross and shame, and he poured himself out to death. And here, I think, is the greatest revelation of the character of God--what was God's response to his Son's faithfulness!? He raised him from the dead, never to die again, gave to him His right hand of power, above all, gave to him a multitude of slaves from every nation and tongue who love him and serve him willingly, and a new heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness, after he shall sit upon a throne and reign a thousand years. The Father did not overlook his Son's willing sacrifice, he rewarded him a hundred fold.

Spong, as smart as he may be, does not know what even my children know--the gospel of grace, the gospel of God. I submit to you, that this is glory, and I bask in its light.


Edited by 10thousand (07/13/12 12:05 AM)


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16527784 - 07/13/12 11:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I am afraid that at present, you are so wedded to the metaphors and midrash that characterizes the canonical NT, that little would be achieved by presenting any further material. The NT, as well as the Tenach, first needs to be demythologized in order to make any further discussion possible. The NT speaks of Jesus 'hanging on a tree,' which may not be figurative. Crucifixion was an art of the Romans. If interested, read the section on crucifixion in Jim Bishop's book The Day Christ Died. The Qur'an does not believe that Issa (Jesus) was crucified, as a prophet of God would not permit such a shameful death. Neither do certain Gnostic versions - mostly Docetic in nature.

"Legions of angels" is one of those curious parts of the NT, if one takes the time to investigate Jewish angelology as it existed in 1st century Judea.There was nothing of the celestial hierarchies that developed later on, such as defining Ezekiel's beings as Ophanim, or Moses' 'burning bush' as a Seraphim. It takes a real expert to ferret out the parts of the NT that are likely scribal insertions. Such is the language of mythos, and I am not denying the existence of non-corporeal beings here, like angels, whatever they may be. In fact, I have long been open to the possibility of many different types of incorporeal beings - even in some of my own experiences (which enters into the book I'm near completing). So I am not tossing out an ideal paradigm for human development, (which is how I think of Christ), but at the same time, I do not need to believe in a historical Jesus any longer, especially inasmuch as the Logos is the metaphysical infrastructure of space-time in which we all "live and move and have our being." As a late adolescent, I needed a hero (in Joseph Campbell's classic sense. But it is infinitely better to Realize the Hero that abides in one's Center, than to project that internal reality onto a story, and then believe the story. Our job is to understand the archetypal themes of birth, rebirth, death, ascension, resurrection, judgement, etc. in our own lives.

We are all both man and God, temporal and Eternal. We are like individual waves that come into being, peak, diminish and die, but at the same time, each wave is 'one with' the very Ocean from which its form arises, and into which its form disappears. Jesus is the mythic prototype, the archetype of this truth. Dismemberment in its myriad forms, including crucifixion, is a symbol of our suspension between Heaven and earth, between Good and Evil (as symbolized by the brigands (usually translated as "thieves,"), and the darkening of the Sun, often depicted artistically as a solar eclipse (Sun and Moon are Blood and Water symbols, repeated in the piercing of Jesus' Heart, Head and Heart. Tibetan Buddhism has parallel symbols as Red and White 'drops' in the Heart.

God is at least personal, certainly not less than human persons in this regard. But I care not to entertain the idea that the incomprehensible Mystery that people call God is a person in the same sense as infinitesimal human beings are persons. God is not 'an Old bearded Guy in the Sky,' that is a Zeus (Deus: Latin) symbol as much as a YHWH symbol.  The relationship between Christ and God is a mythic representation of the relationship between the ego and Self, the 'I' and the Father. Christ is depicted theologically as a unique specie of being. Psychologically, Christ is the West's symbol of the Self, the Transcendental Self. The East's correlate is the Buddha (only the Buddha was very clearly a historical being, despite being mythologized as another virgin birth, born under an astronomical anomaly, and at whose feet lotus blossoms sprang up following his first baby steps).  Edward Edinger's remarkably insightful book Ego and Archetype uses Jungian psychological concepts to describe this and other biblical myths, including Genesis as a myth which describes the birth of consciousness from the unconscious.

Unless an individual is willing to investigate religious writings with modern philosophical, phenomenological, and psychological tools, and take a position outside of the words that were penned by pre-modern, pre-scientific, pre-journalistic mentalities, there is certainly no point in discussing God-concepts (theistic, deistic, pantheistic, panentheistic, process thought, etc.).
This is what various disciplines offer us for perspective - philosophy of religion, psychology of religion, sociology of religion, etc.. It is impossible for post-moderns to see ancient writings as ancients saw them - fortunately! They confused the physical with the metaphysical, lived on a flat Earth with Heaven above and Hell below. In talking with a personal god and hearing messages, the ancients may have had a bicameral mind.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mind There is no going backwards, that is devolution.


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/14/12 01:43 AM)


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16529571 - 07/14/12 11:23 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Heterodoxy of Spongism:

Jesus did not actually come in the flesh, so His miracles never happened.  Therefore the Bible is full of lies and is written by liars.  The Word of God could have errors and God could not or would not preserve it.  They have no final source of authority for their doctrines.  They rely on writings of men, plus man made rationalism to arrive at truth.  They make it up as they go along and insist only they have the correct interpretation.  They are very dogmatic in holding to the myth fantasy. 

The Bible condemns those who deny Jesus came in the flesh as Antichrist.  The Gnostic heresy has already been refuted in scripture.


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: 10thousand]
    #16529808 - 07/14/12 12:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The first time I tried psilocybin (in recent months) was after I was married with children. In fact, I tried it due to the status of my relationship with my family; I simply wasn't living life in the proper manner. High stress work and a society that wound me tight left me insensitive and a bit too reactive towards my children. I simply couldn't control my impulses and patience, while working 14 hour days and facing some level of perpetual disappointment (perhaps disappointment at the entire structure of society I was adopted by). I found myself, while caring, short tempered with a tendency to verbally assault other family members over relatively minor issues. There was not intentional cruelty, but just unacceptable reactions.

Regardless, I read a lot on the psychological benefits of the drug and took it with a goal in mind of being a better father and human. Most of my experience was focused completely on my children (and it was enhanced when my wife asked me to watch my son and get him to sleep while I was tripping). I lost track of reality, and wondered at some point if I even had children--if they were real; this led to a great deal of panic until I confirmed the truth (thereby revealing the feeling of 'loss' if I didn't have them). I remember lying on a couch with my son on my chest, lost in a dream of walking in the sun with my family the next day. It was all I wanted to do; all I wanted to be. I realized the joy of fatherhood was tangible, buried beneath hardened layers of my ego. I realized that I had this joy in my heart, and how to feel it as I haven't before. The drug definitely showed my the way which I could choose to follow.

One thing I noticed immediately following the experience is the overwhelming consciousness I had towards everything I said and felt (beyond family interactions). There is much less knee-jerk reactionism; I feel a tinge of guilt at language or judgmental thoughts towards others. Consequently, I've been able to interact much more positively with my entire family in calm and rational tones. I feel like I am actually in control; and as the experience fades, occasionally I am at least very aware in instances when I lose that control. So it is definitely a constant struggle to stay on that path that I choose and want to be on.

Regardless, it is my belief that this drug, in a single experience, has improved my relationships with my children and my life experience--but perhaps its placebo since I really wanted that to happen (though, doesn't everyone want to live better?). Yes, I do indulge and cultivate marijuana for medical purposes (which works better for pain than opiates and/or alcohol), but the level of therapy at all hours of the day provided by psilocybin is unmatched. Nothing has 'helped' me help myself to this level.

I feel that just because these drugs are 'taboo' doesn't make them inappropriate. We have lost so much of the natural ways of man, and science (and profit) can sometimes blind us to the straightest path between two points (just as science can eventually reveal it). I believe that one must take them maturely though with honesty between themselves and their spouse. It should be deemed no more inappropriate than going to a psychologist or church or a doctor (in case of marijuana). Adults do all those things when they have families, so why not take substances in controlled environments that actually work.

On the other hand, I don't think it would be immensely cool to trip out, strip naked, and run around nuts in front of my family. The interesting thing is that behavior similar to that actually occurs when people imbibe too much alcohol (as I had in college), which is entirely OK to many people. Stop worrying then about what society thinks is taboo or not, and do what you must and want to in order to explore yourself and live a better life.


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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: fivepointer]
    #16530734 - 07/14/12 04:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Therefore the Bible is full of lies and is written by liars.

:thumbup:  One of your more honest statements fiver.


--------------------

The basic texture of research consists of dreams into which the threads of reasoning, measurement, and calculation are woven. -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

A human life is a journey into darkness -unknown



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Re: Marriage, Family, and Mushrooms [Re: fivepointer]
    #16533529 - 07/15/12 07:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Heterodoxy of Spongism:

Jesus did not actually come in the flesh, so His miracles never happened.  Therefore the Bible is full of lies and is written by liars.  The Word of God could have errors and God could not or would not preserve it.  They have no final source of authority for their doctrines.  They rely on writings of men, plus man made rationalism to arrive at truth.  They make it up as they go along and insist only they have the correct interpretation.  They are very dogmatic in holding to the myth fantasy. 

The Bible condemns those who deny Jesus came in the flesh as Antichrist.  The Gnostic heresy has already been refuted in scripture.




:haha:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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